Immigration to the UK - do you have concerns?
- Thread starter mojo pixy
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littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
This link gives a decent summary of some of the various estimates. As the link says, it's not an easy thing to measure and how it should be measured is somewhat disputed. For example, students here on temporary visas are included in the numbers. As it says in the link, that's pertinent in that they are people who are physically here, need to live somewhere, etc, but another way of looking at foreign students is that they are part of Britain's export market. These are people bringing substantial amounts of money into the country to buy services.
Net migration to the UK - Migration Observatory
I would argue that these numbers have little to do with the causes of antagonism, though. Hostility towards immigrants is generally lowest in the places with the highest number of immigrants.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
With the caveat that some of these areas have the highest per capita asylum seeker dispersal figures.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Yes. And a further caveat from me that I prefer to call them refugees.
MrCurry
right after this urgent rest
Thanks. Not sure what to make of the difference between the 685,000 for 2023 shown in that link versus 165,000 for Uk here, which is a comparison of European countries net migration in 2023.
Posting a couple of screenshots as that link works fine when returned as a google result, but seems to require a paid premium subscription when accessed directly as a link.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I would take that higher figure with a pinch of salt. Certainly a very different methodology used, and the link itself says that it usually takes a few years to actually work out the figures. As an obvious example of that, if I were to leave the UK to go and live somewhere else, there is a very strong chance that the UK would miss me leaving - they rarely check passports as you leave the country here in the UK. How long would it take my emigration to show up on the figures? Years, probably.
Thing is that people moaned about immigration even when there was net emigration from the UK - ie back in the Enoch Powell days. I'm not sure it matters what the actual figures are in that regard - and there has always been a strong racism element to such moaning.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
And just to come back to the student question. When measuring immigration, I'm pretty sure no country includes tourists in its figures, but many parts of the world have substantially swollen populations in various parts of the year due to tourism. The tourists are also physically there and in need of somewhere to live, etc. I'm not sure how different students are from tourists really, or why they are treated so differently.
PTK
Paul Kegan
magneze
🎧
It's not a numbers issue though is it. It's not like we had riots because of the release of some numbers. It was a response to a particular event - a triple murder. The trigger has been fear. Yes, it was misdirected but countering something as visceral as fear with some numbers about migrants isn't really going to help IMHO.
We see this amped up on social media. The rape gangs in Rotherham - Elon Musk asking "Kier Starmer is this still happening" for example. Britain First seem to be all over the fear angle. It's easy to dismiss these but this stuff seems to be surfaced for people who aren't even following them. I'm sure someone will be along to say "well my Twitter feed doesn't have them", but who gives a shit. It's happening.
I still believe that leaving social media, particularly Twitter, is necessary. By sticking around on Twitter, no matter how anodyne your feed is sends the message to your contacts that it's still ok to be there. But you don't know what they're seeing, what they're being promoted. If all the good people leave it can finally collapse into a toxic hellscape. If Twitter doesn't fail then we'll see the other social media companies roll back Trust and Safety teams too and exacerbate the issue. In a way, Twitter has to fail and be seen to fail.
Of course, another idea would be to flood back and argue the toss there. However, with Musk as owner I cannot see a path to success - he'll make sure his message is amped up and other social media companies may see this as a success and take the same steps he has. Again, rolling back Trust and Safety and inviting back all the facists.
We see this amped up on social media. The rape gangs in Rotherham - Elon Musk asking "Kier Starmer is this still happening" for example. Britain First seem to be all over the fear angle. It's easy to dismiss these but this stuff seems to be surfaced for people who aren't even following them. I'm sure someone will be along to say "well my Twitter feed doesn't have them", but who gives a shit. It's happening.
I still believe that leaving social media, particularly Twitter, is necessary. By sticking around on Twitter, no matter how anodyne your feed is sends the message to your contacts that it's still ok to be there. But you don't know what they're seeing, what they're being promoted. If all the good people leave it can finally collapse into a toxic hellscape. If Twitter doesn't fail then we'll see the other social media companies roll back Trust and Safety teams too and exacerbate the issue. In a way, Twitter has to fail and be seen to fail.
Of course, another idea would be to flood back and argue the toss there. However, with Musk as owner I cannot see a path to success - he'll make sure his message is amped up and other social media companies may see this as a success and take the same steps he has. Again, rolling back Trust and Safety and inviting back all the facists.
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teqniq
DisMembered
I like the sentiment but strictly speaking asylum seekers are not given any status until and unless they are granted leave to remain. Then they are either given refugee status or humanitarian protection.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I reject the idea that the UK govt gets to tell me who I do or do not call a refugee.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I disagree. The trigger of the riots was hate.
I think this is still missing the point that all concerns are “legitimate” from within the value framework that created them, because legitimacy derives from an internalised worldview, not some kind of objective external reality. Your problem is not whether the concerns are legitimate or not, but whether the worldview those concerns represent deserves legitimacy in modern Britain. Which is fine, but it still leaves the whole phrasing of “legitimate concerns” as at best a red herring and at worst an unhelpful distraction, as people are encouraged to argue about the legitimacy of the concern itself.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
I know.
Caused by?
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
The core emotion that can result in hate is fear.
Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
Of course many British people in the 1800's and early 1900's were Irish, some of whom would not have been jingoistic about the Empire at all.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Maybe so. I'm not that interested in psychoanalysing fascists tbh. The hatred is the driver of the action. That's the bit we can plainly see.
Ultimately, net migration is unimportant to this issue. If ten million UK-born residents emigrate and nine million non-Uk born residents arrive, those who fear outsiders won’t take comfort from the fact that net migration is minus one million. Quite the reverse, in fact.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
Interested enough that you took the time to post about it
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Yes really interesting, isn't it?
I added a bit after you quoted. I don't need psychoanalysis to see what is in front of me.
andysays
Love and solidarity
My concerns are correct and legitimate.
Yours are misguided if understandable.
They are a racist who it is beneath us to talk to.
You’ll have more luck finding interventions that mitigate fear than those that mitigate hate.
teqniq
DisMembered
I appreciate your sentiment, honestly I do. I just felt it was somewhat necessary to provide some background info on the way the official system works as it currently stands.
E2a it is also important to note that if you personally know an asylum seeker and you call them a refugee, you are very much potentially giving them what may well be false hope. It is pretty much at the forefront of most asylum seeker's minds that they get granted leave to remain so to do this when that is not their official status is very unwise indeed.
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Gromit
International Man of Misery
krtek a houby
Merry Xmas!
Am happy to call them newcomers. No associations or baggage.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Someone at work view is that European culture is Christian based. Not that he was that religious.That Muslims are culturally different from us and it was a mistake to let them in. This was based on his value system
He was also, without saying anything obviously racist , really off with the Pakistani who worked there. To point where neither of us would work with him. He knew how far to go without being obviously racist. If you said he was being racist he vehemently denied it
How does one deal with someone whose value system is this? In his case it is red line imo. Not that I shout racist.
And he knows full well that what he's doing is not socially acceptable. In front of clients he was all sweetness and light. He did it with rest of us as a windup.
I agree with dealing with things upstream to a point. However dealing with things upstream does not necessarily equate to
immigration controls.
Immigration controls are one way to deal with things upstream.History of recent immigration controls has been to keep certain kinds of people out / restrict ability to come here. Jews in 1905/ Carribbean people in 60s etc. It's not about technocratic colour blind fair system. Immigration controls have developed due to "legitimate" concerns. Which are racist. In sense of keeping certain kinds of people out.
Not having a go at you here.
Dealing with things upstream isn't just about telling off lefties for shouting racist at every opportunity.it's also about how immigration system developed since 1905 has failed. Because it has imo. A failed upstream solution.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I do think the language matters. 'Asylum seekers welcome here' doesn't have the same ring to it as 'refugees welcome here'. The former means you're welcome to try your luck with the legal system. The latter just means you're welcome. Someone will typically wait two-three years for a decision on their legal status, and if they're successful, do they then become refugees at that point or is their status backdated to the time they arrived? Thay have in fact always been refugees since the day of their arrival - it just took the UK state a long time to recognise this. No need for us to be so tardy.
Ĝasper
Well-Known Member
I think the riots were partly motivated by envy. Unlike Muslims, white sub-proletariat English people lack cultural organisations, fraternities and organised support networks. Their sense identity is a mess. They do not practice clean living. Christianity is not seen as able to fill the void. Deindustrialisation happened, Thatcher happened, 9/11 and all its consequences happened, mass immigration has happened, especially since 2004, and has increased every year. People at the bottom (ok, near the bottom) lashed out.
Me personally, I'm expecting my first kid, and the only suitable accommodation we could find was a flatshare with a Ukrainian fugitive whose been in the country for years but has never worked and can't speak English. Let's face it, we are living in scarcity. Yeah I have concerns. The cultural differences and lived experiences are a vast chasm between us.
Me personally, I'm expecting my first kid, and the only suitable accommodation we could find was a flatshare with a Ukrainian fugitive whose been in the country for years but has never worked and can't speak English. Let's face it, we are living in scarcity. Yeah I have concerns. The cultural differences and lived experiences are a vast chasm between us.
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