Immigrant workers are scab workers?

[dash]

What do people think the effects of a 'no borders' policy might be in the world as it is today?

 

[poster342002]

Whatever happened to workers of the world? Ever thought of trying to organise internationally?

Marx said "workers of the world unite", not "workers of the world scramble around the globe competing and outbidding each other for work to the benefit of the capitalists".

 

[rekil]

I'm picking up someone is pinging the old 'racism/xenophobia radar' again in response to well though out critiques of the no borders postions (@C/L)

All I see here is a lot of scapegoating and guff about how more nationalism and statism is required to restrict the free movement of labour. That sort of position is neither realistic nor desirable in my book.

 

[rekil]

What do people think the effects of a 'no borders' policy might be in the world as it is today?

An avalanche of shite threads like this.

 

[belboid]

I am not arguing to shoot anybody. I am saying that with an incredibly skewed world economy, a no borders position if enacted would lead to a ridiculous movement of people. Which is why workers in rich countries would never support this in large numbers, unless world economics became more balanced, which would then reduce this movement anyway. Which of course is unlikely at the moment.

you're not arguing for it - cos you're obviously not a complete cunt or owt - but the position you ARE arguing for would require exactly such a policy. And would definitely create a two tier workforce of legal and illegal workers. Exactly what you are trying to prevent would come about.

 

[Blagsta]

Basically, it's easy for them to find some spurious reason why you're not eligible to claim it.

Like? Give us an example.

 

[Blagsta]

Marx said "workers of the world unite", not "workers of the world scramble around the globe competing and outbidding each other for work to the benefit of the capitalists".

I understand the arguments, but you're falling for the oldest trick in the book - divide and rule.

 

[SuburbanCasual]

What do people think the effects of a 'no borders' policy might be in the world as it is today?

Even more millions of poor flooding into western Europe and North America.

And people accusing us of being Moselyites It didn't take long, as soon as the orthodox liberal left dross can't answer they have to resort to screaming wascist at us.

What the fuck use to workers in the developing world are we if we can't even organise to defend the interests of those workers in our own communities and workplaces?

Wasn't it the Zapatista leader who when asked what European revolutionaries could do to help his movement said about organise in our own countries and tackling our own bosses? It was some well respected developing world activist anyway.

 

[exosculate]

you're not arguing for it - cos you're obviously not a complete cunt or owt - but the position you ARE arguing for would require exactly such a policy. And would definitely create a two tier workforce of legal and illegal workers. Exactly what you are trying to prevent would come about.

Belboid, I am in theory a supporter of no borders as an ultimate objective. Lets get that straight now. But it can only be theoretical at the present time.

I am trying to make tentative steps to have a more sophisticated view of things than the old left baggage people continuously regurgitate.

If you are going to continuously say open up borders everywhere and unionise everyone, I think thats unrealistic.

One might just as easily argue for development everywhere and unionise people where they live. Perhaps unrealistic too, but no more unrealistic than what you are arguing at the moment.

 

[SuburbanCasual]

I understand the arguments, but you're falling for the oldest trick in the book - divide and rule.

Nonsense.

The best way we can show solidarity with workers in other countries is through supporting their efforts to organise - donating money and materials, supporting boycotts called by organising groups and targetting British/Multinational companies that are acting against worker's organisations in other countries.

While doing what we can to support working class organisation in this country in defence of our own interests.

That is international working class solidarity.

 

[Blagsta]

Nonsense.

The best way we can show solidarity with workers in other countries is through supporting their efforts to organise - donating money and materials, supporting boycotts called by organising groups and targetting British/Multinational companies that are acting against worker's organisations in other countries.

While doing what we can to support working class organisation in this country in defence of our own interests.

That is international working class solidarity.

So why the inflammatory "scab" bullshit then?

 

[belboid]

Wasn't it the Zapatista leader who when asked what European revolutionaries could do to help his movement said about organise in our own countries and tackling our own bosses? It was some well respected developing world activist anyway.

that is quite right, but it has absolutely no connection whatsoever to this thread. None.

You may ultimately believe in a no borders position, but the one you are arguing for now is one explicitly for border controls - controls which would, of necessity, create a two tier workforce & a militarily patrolled border. Which might just get in the way of expressing solidarity just a wee bit. This isnt 'sophisticated', its defeatism and ideological bankruptcy. It does fall into the good ol' divide and rule tactic beloved of the bosses, and how you can pretend otherwise is beyond me.

 

[SuburbanCasual]

So why the inflammatory "scab" bullshit then?

I was asking a question based on the very real similarities of the current wave of mass immigration being used to undermine pay and conditions and drive up unemployment, and the use of scab labour to undermine the struggle for better pay and conditions.

The fact is there is a massive immigration problem in the UK at the moment, and the rise of the BNP is only one of the symptoms of that.

We need to provide a radical anti racist pro working class answer to the problem and simply sitting back and making utopian demands for universal unionisation and open borders will not cut the mustard!

 

[Kameron]

I knew someone.for instance, who was out of work but could not obtain work via the jobcentre because they didn't qualify for jobseekers' allowance - therefore, they did not count as unemployed. Orwellian nonsense it certainly was - but there you go.

This flat out isn't true. Anybody can use the Job Centre, even if you've already got a job. You just walk in or use the website.

 

[poster342002]

Like? Give us an example.

I think one of them can be something like "you've got too much money in your bank account". If I'm wrong on this, someone please do correct me. I think there are other reasons you can be turned down for JSA too - and by extension, unable to use a jobcentre.

 

[poster342002]

This flat out isn't true. Anybody can use the Job Centre, even if you've already got a job. You just walk in or use the website.

That's news to me.

 

[SuburbanCasual]

That's news to me.

It is true though You're right about how difficult it is to sign on though, it's often not worth the effort.

 

[Blagsta]

This flat out isn't true. Anybody can use the Job Centre, even if you've already got a job. You just walk in or use the website.

Yep.

 

[poster342002]

I'm very grateful for being put right on the jobcentre thing, actually. Cheers.

 

[dash]

Would those backing open borders also reject the idea of checking if those wishing to move here have criminal records in their own countries?

 

[Blagsta]

I think one of them can be something like "you've got too much money in your bank account". If I'm wrong on this, someone please do correct me.

Yes, if you have savings of over about £16,000 you're not eligible. Not many people have savings of over £16,000 and want to claim JSA ime.

I think there are other reasons you can be turned down for JSA too -

Yes, there are some reasons. Like having a partner who works, see here
http://www.jobcentreplus.gov.uk/JCP/Customers/WorkingAgeBenefits/Jobseekerallowance/index.html

and by extension, unable to use a jobcentre.

Not true.

 

[belboid]

I was asking a question based on the very real similarities of the current wave of mass immigration being used to undermine pay and conditions and drive up unemployment, and the use of scab labour to undermine the struggle for better pay and conditions.

The fact is there is a massive immigration problem in the UK at the moment, and the rise of the BNP is only one of the symptoms of that.

We need to provide a radical anti racist pro working class answer to the problem and simply sitting back and making utopian demands for universal unionisation and open borders will not cut the mustard!

but your question - and inded your statements - belie your final paragraph.

There isn't a "massive immigration problem in the UK at the moment" - there is a significant housing and jobs problem. And it is important to put it that way round because otherwise you are blaming people who are also the victims of the system, rather than the boses who create those problems in the first place.

And, I note, that, as always, there has been no response to the point made earlier about how exactly the same arguments were used when women first started moving into the workforce.

 

[dash]

Are there any countries which have adopted no borders policies? If so, what were the outcomes?

 

[Fullyplumped]

Your information is misleading and wrong.

Yes, if you have savings of over about £16,000 you're not eligible. Not many people have savings of over £16,000 and want to claim JSA ime.

This is true in respect of income based JSA, not in respect of contribution based JSA, which like the old Unemployment Benefit is not means tested but depends on NI contributions. I don't agree that people with savings are unwilling to claim JSA.

Yes, there are some reasons. Like having a partner who works, see here
http://www.jobcentreplus.gov.uk/JCP/Customers/WorkingAgeBenefits/Jobseekerallowance/index.html

Income based JSA is not available to someone whose partner works 24 hours a week or more. That restriction does not apply to people who are eligible for contribution based JSA.

Not true.

Anyone can use a job centre or the jobcentre plus website to look for a job.

 

[Blagsta]

I was asking a question based on the very real similarities of the current wave of mass immigration being used to undermine pay and conditions and drive up unemployment, and the use of scab labour to undermine the struggle for better pay and conditions.

The fact is there is a massive immigration problem in the UK at the moment, and the rise of the BNP is only one of the symptoms of that.

We need to provide a radical anti racist pro working class answer to the problem and simply sitting back and making utopian demands for universal unionisation and open borders will not cut the mustard!

As someone pointed out, there aren't really any similarities. Scabs cross picket lines during a strike - immigrant workers do not. You're being inflammatory in your use of language as far as I can see.

 

[SuburbanCasual]

There isn't a "massive immigration problem in the UK at the moment" - there is a significant housing and jobs problem. And it is important to put it that way round because otherwise you are blaming people who are also the victims of the system, rather than the boses who create those problems in the first place.

There is a massive problem with immigration because millions of people are pissed off with it - that means there is an immigration problem whether we like it or not!

 

[northernhord]

Are they? Many of the arguments made in favour of an immigration free for all (well free for the middle classes anyway!) is that we should show support for these brave workers who only want to provide for their families and work hard for the benefit of the 'economy'. Much the same was said by the right about those who scabbed on the miner's strike, indeed the rightwing press of the day smeared the striking miners with similer epiphets to those used by the liberal left against those workers who question what benefits immigration brings them now.

The left didn't support scabs then, why now?

Firstly the word scab is woefully inadiquate to describe workers who are needed to do jobs that we either wont or cant do, who are simply here to try and look after their families.
Secondly isnt there some sort of pressure group/trade union type thing set up by polish workers to ensure that Migrant workers dont undercut British workers.

 

[rekil]

I was asking a question based on the very real similarities of the current wave of mass immigration being used to undermine pay and conditions and drive up unemployment, and the use of scab labour to undermine the struggle for better pay and conditions.

The fact is there is a massive immigration problem in the UK at the moment, and the rise of the BNP is only one of the symptoms of that.

No there isn't.

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=260

Would you also like the state to prevent UK nationals from moving abroad?

 

[belboid]

There is a massive problem with immigration because millions of people are pissed off with it - that means there is an immigration problem whether we like it or not!

only in the same way as there was a 'jewish problem' in nazi germany.

 

[Blagsta]

Your information is misleading and wrong.
This is true in respect of income based JSA, not in respect of contribution based JSA, which like the old Unemployment Benefit is not means tested but depends on NI contributions. I don't agree that people with savings are unwilling to claim JSA.

To all intents and purposes, it makes no difference. If you cannot get contributions based, you get income based - depending on other provisos.

Income based JSA is not available to someone whose partner works 24 hours a week or more. That restriction does not apply to people who are eligible for contribution based JSA.

Yes, there are restrictions. However, its not based on "spurious reasons".

I'm not defending it, the systems a mess, but people could at least try and be accurate.