Hundreds of women assaulted in German NYE celebrations

[Pickman's model]

If there is a conspiracy and its aim is to close European borders I don't see why the focus should only be on Daesh. The SAA have leaked multitudes of fighters in recent months, far more than the head choppers. 100,000 soldiers which amount to half the fighting force since the civil war broke out have either switched sides or more likely headed for Turkey and Europe. There is a draft in Assad's Syria among those of fighting age, his army aren't trusted and have to be closely controlled by Special forces and I don't see why this wouldn't extend to using criminal entities in Europe tied to the regime to stir up trouble here.

conspiralunacy

 

[J Ed]

If there is a conspiracy and its aim is to close European borders I don't see why the focus should only be on Daesh. The SAA have leaked multitudes of fighters in recent months, far more than the head choppers. 100,000 soldiers which amount to half the fighting force since the civil war broke out have either switched sides or more likely headed for Turkey and Europe. There is a draft in Assad's Syria among those of fighting age, his army aren't trusted and have to be closely controlled by Special forces and I don't see why this wouldn't extend to using criminal entities in Europe tied to the regime to stir up trouble here.

Where did the SAA/Daesh/the far-right/the lizards get such a diverse crowd then? Was there a specific casting?

 

[Pickman's model]

Where did the SAA/Daesh/the far-right/the lizards get such a diverse crowd then? Was there a specific casting?

it's their equal ops policy

 

[Casually Red]

Are you claiming that the far right are not exploiting this incident?

Of course they are....it's tailor made for them . As is the political context and environment in which it occurred . This hasnt happened in isolation from a wider context that was already fuelling their growth and polarising german society . and it's not just one incident . Bielefeld had the potential to be even worse had they succeeded and made it through the doors . The toll at st Pauli now the victims have come forward now stands at what the original level of complaints were in cologne . Around 130 women assaulted there .
You seem to be saying being outraged with what's occurred...despite it being absolutely outrageous.., acknowledging the streets aren't safe...because they plainly aren't..acknowledging people are extremely angry and let down by everyone..and connecting this to merkels decision to let over a million migrants into a Germany that demonstrably can't cope with them...is to be n league with the far right. That's bollocks. Your demanding people put their heads in the sand and engage in fantasy . To keep doubling down and insisting German society has to keep going in that direction .

You plainly can't see that's exactly what the far right have been thriving on and taking advantage of . And that's what exasperates me. And angers me frankly .

A poster arguing with me last night continually insisted the fabric of German society is intact and there'd be few problems and I was just being hysterical . As he was speaking vigilantes were prowling the streets looking for victims . Which was totally predictable . And this won't be the end of it. All of this, not just the attacks but the policies themselves are what the far right is thriving on . They were growing massively BEFORE this happened . You don't seem to cop that on. I've been going over there for years and seeing this creep up and heat up bit by bit . And listening to the exasperation and steady demoralisation of people who've fought them all their lives . Listening to them shaking their heads about how polarised and increasingly radicalised people from the poorest areas are becoming . All sorts . It was a seriously gloomy picture before this happened. And pointing this out , and trying to explain why gets you labelled as a fascist enabler and whipper upper.

Fuck me .

 

[IC3D]

conspiralunacy

Because no nation state has engaged in this sort of thing ever

 

[Bernie Gunther]

I suggest that the way to avoid both conspiraloonery and being conned by an actual conspiracy is to pay attention to the evidence as best you can and avoid being swayed by people who demand that you produce a more emotional response, demonstrating outrage along certain lines or call you names if you refuse to buy into their drama.

 

[J Ed]

Because no nation state has engaged in this sort of thing ever

I challenge you to find examples from history of any similar events.

 

[Casually Red]

If there is a conspiracy and its aim is to close European borders I don't see why the focus should only be on Daesh. The SAA have leaked multitudes of fighters in recent months, far more than the head choppers. 100,000 soldiers which amount to half the fighting force since the civil war broke out have either switched sides or more likely headed for Turkey and Europe. There is a draft in Assad's Syria among those of fighting age, his army aren't trusted and have to be closely controlled by Special forces and I don't see why this wouldn't extend to using criminal entities in Europe tied to the regime to stir up trouble here.

This is bullshit . In recent months since Russia directly intervened the SAA has rallied its morale and supporters . The 100, 000 odd missing soldiers you refer to we're killed. They're dead. The vast majority of SAA deserters went home to defend their homes rather than sit in some isolated outpost while their families were in danger. They're regularised in armed militias now and have better things to be doing than running about harassing German women.

And you should be fucking ashamed of yourself to be using these victims humiliation to try and push this childish bloody nonsense .

 

[IC3D]

I challenge you to find examples from history of any similar events.

Just about everything the CIA have done in the latter part of the 20th century?

 

[Casually Red]

conspiralunacy

One minute they claim Assad is trying to drive people out, the next he tries to create the conditions to have them all sent back . No end to his chicanery .

 

[J Ed]

Just about everything the CIA have done in the latter part of the 20th century?

I can think of a lot of ways in which the CIA have used sexual violence as a means of repression during the 20th Century. I cannot think of any examples of the CIA or any other group forcing one heterogeneous group of a thousand and several smaller groups of hundreds to go on a mass sexual assault and rape spree and I'm not sure how that would even be possible unless you are suggesting some sort of mind control technique and that's before you even get to the idea of being able to do this without anyone other than the participants knowing.

 

[Pickman's model]

One minute they claim Assad is trying to drive people out, the next he tries to create the conditions to have them all sent back . No end to his chicanery .

how indecisive the man is

 

[not-bono-ever]

constant baseless and unfounded claims of this being an orchestrated event by bad men , does nothing apart from give daesh further creedence and undeserved PR.

has there been any evidence to support the idea that this was a planned act?

 

[Bernie Gunther]

I

constant baseless and unfounded claims of this being an orchestrated event by bad men , does nothing apart from give daesh further creedence and undeserved PR.

has there been any evidence to support the idea that this was a planned act?

I looked and I can't find anything compelling, just a bit of speculation.

What there is significant evidence of is the same pattern of street crime in the same areas on a small scale and of a far right social media campaign that picked up on the NYE events and ran with them hard using all the usual tropes.

Occam's razor therefore suggests ...

 

[Casually Red]

constant baseless and unfounded claims of this being an orchestrated event by bad men , does nothing apart from give daesh further creedence and undeserved PR.

has there been any evidence to support the idea that this was a planned act?

Well we are still trying to come to grips with the fact the evidence it happened at all was deliberately suppressed by police, establishment and media . Despite some here trying to deny for a while it was suppressed .

And still coming to grips with the fact it happened in even more places than we originally thought . So evidence that there were definite ring leaders co ordinating it may be a while coming .

But the fact it's happened simultaneously in so many places and involved so many perpetrators and so many victims means its unlikely to many people to have been spontaneous . That all those people in all these places would just get up that morning and decide to do the very same heinous thing of their own accord at the same time stretches credulity just a tad .

 

[IC3D]

This is bullshit . In recent months since Russia directly intervened the SAA has rallied its morale and supporters .

Russia and Hezb are there to shore up a pretty fractured military, taking over command in many cases causes further fragmantation

The 100, 000 odd missing soldiers you refer to we're killed. They're dead. The vast majority of SAA deserters went home to defend their homes rather than sit in some isolated outpost while their families were in danger.

Going home to have their head chopped off, I doubt it.

They're regularised in armed militias now and have better things to be doing than running about harassing German women.

That's kind of losing.

 

[Casually Red]

I


I looked and I can't find anything compelling, just a bit of speculation.

What there is significant evidence of is the same pattern of street crime in the same areas on a small scale and of a far right social media campaign that picked up on the NYE events and ran with them hard using all the usual tropes.

Fair enough then. It didn't happen. Nothing out of the ordinary actually happened and it's just the far right whipping this all up and making people think it did . It was just a normal NYE and it's all a fuss about nothing .

Happy now ?

 

[treelover]

Your actually comparing Poland to the middle east ?

You'd compare Euro 2012 to Tahrir square ? Are you serious ? It's like what's happened hasn't happened . The poles haven't changed the social landscape for the worse. These guys have ,drastically so . that's a massive difference .

It's like this hasn't happened , that there shouldn't be any anger over it and nothing needs to change . Except people are extremely angry over it and they're going to demand change . Pointing that...very obvious..dimension out isn't engaging in social warfare . Neither is being angry. Neither is wanting to see them all arrested and deported . And neither is wanting eu immigration policies changed either. None of that is social warfare. It's an attempt to ensure we don't end up there . Because if these steps aren't taken that's we're it's highly likely to go.

The fact is somebody had said to you a fortnight ago something like this could happen you'd call them a racist . Even i probably would have lBut it's a fact of life now. And there'll be a social reaction to it .

There is not enough anger here in the UK about the suicides from the benefit cuts either

Oh, look, i have just mentioned one of mu 'pet subjects' Christ, how can people think like that, there is no personal benefit, its called empathy.

 

[IC3D]

how indecisive the man is

Mixing me up with someone else more like

 

[treelover]

No I'm saying they are there now, and there are more coming. Its unstoppable, so what are you going do?

IMHO you adjust, crack down on the ringleaders whatever that involves and mitigate the circumstances which led to such a larger group becoming involved.

Less of the doom mongering and sometimes over reaction.

Respect by the way.

There Is No Alternative.

 

[frogwoman]

Me too. The very fact that Trump exists is scary for example but what we have won (re the rights of women, consent etc) is not going to be easily taken away, even by people like him. See for instance what happened after his lawyer 'misspoke' when he said that there is no such thing as rape within a marriage.

Yeah I agree, still a long way to go before we get to that point thankfully

However I think people like trump and movements like pegida (and to some extent Daesh, especially in the third world) appear to represent the same challenge to the establishment that the left used to and imagines it still does. they are all involving people in extreme right-wing reactionary politics that never used to be. They certainly appear to currently frighten the establishment a lot more. I mean you imagine trump writing an op ed in the guardian about 'why my wall on the US-Mexican border is not only feasible but necessary'. When he said that stuff about the Muslim shutdown the entire political establishment of the UK and the US lined up to condemn him despite coming out with sly allusions to that sort of stuff themselves, when left wingers come out with 'outrageous' stuff they are ridiculed or more often ignored. even marine le pen and nigel farage lined up to distance themselves from him. I mean as much as the left has gone on about the poor treatment of corbyn in the media it's really nothing to the sort of pasting trump has had from all parts of the political establishment around the world.

it's not even due to the "historically weak position of the left" when the left, even what's considered the far left, are able to get speaking engagements and be listened to and become entrenched in mainstream media and academia in a way that the far and extreme right, let alone islamist groups such as daesh etc are not really able to do. i don't think there really exists a significant "challenge" from the left in much of western europe (although i think the US is different and a bit better). i don't think it's a case of the left being weak it's that it's become so integrated into capital that it no longer represents any sort of challenge, whereas the extreme reactionary right represents far more of a threat to the existing capitalist establishment and has more of a chance of putting its programme into practice. and the problem is that the neo-liberal right and establishment politicians can often rely on a large segment of the left to line up with them to "defend" the existing society against the extreme right, such as when the french left called for a vote for sarkozy and chirac against le pen. so essentially in the de facto position of defending the state and the existing order against the right and being perceived to be doing so.

i mean can you really say the state have lined up with the far right in germany given the treatment they had over the weekend? we know that some german cops are racist, but is it really the case that they sprayed them with water cannon to give them more sympathy and support? are they really that scheming? i'm sure that cameron and many of the CBI and most establishment politicians and business interests would far rather see a soft-social democrat such as the likes of corbyn in power, who wouldn't be able to do a great deal due to the systemic conditions and would be out in one or two terms anyway, than a trump or pegida equivalent let alone someone even further to the right than that. despite the fact that he and people like him have willingly fostered such a climate.

so in western europe anyway, it's fucking shit, and i don't really know what anyone can do.

 

[treelover]

There's a lot of it about right now.

The left is not failing, irrelevent, obsessed with its little hobbies?

 

[treelover]

I just learnt that the first 'Take Back the Night' marches took place in several cities across west Germany, one day in 1977. UK marches followed the lead of the German feminists, fighting to lay a claim to their right to walk the streets of their cities unmolested after dark.

Women still do not have equal ownership of public space, not here or anywhere, that battle is ongoing, but in recent years the whole conversation about 'street harassment' here hasn't been about being physically touched by men in the streets it's been about verbal harassment.

What makes me so angry is that (unless I'm reading the thread all wrong) there seem to be a lot of men here who - by resisting the idea that where the attackers came from has any relevance to the NYE attacks - are in effect refusing to acknowledge that the rights of women to walk around unmolested wearing what they want etc, lets say in Cologne for instance, was hard fought for, by 40 years of relentless hard work and pressure from feminists.
To deny that 'our' ideas about consent are more advanced than those in India for instance is to deny that the last 40 years of feminism has achieved anything at all.

Yes, i was wondering if the german feminists would be calling a massive 'Reclaim the Night' march.

 

[Casually Red]

i don't think it's a war in europe, i think it will be a series of pogroms.

I think it will be societal friction, societal fracture, more austerity, scapegoats aplenty, gradually leading to something deeply unpleasant . And the complete divorce of the left and the working class in any meaningful sense. Again leading to something deeply unpleasant. Combined with a loss of personal freedoms and constant fear and friction. Again leading to something deeply unpleasant .
Generally not good.

Alternatively I might just be making all this up to stir racial trouble and e etching is actually perfectly fine and should stay the way it is. It'll work out alright. Apparently . I'm imagining it all..or deliberately making it up .

 

[frogwoman]

The left is not failing, irrelevent, obssessed with its little hobbies?

Tbf ever since i came on this forum you've been going on about how the left is failing. It includes you aswell.

 

[Pickman's model]

I think it will be societal friction, societal fracture, more austerity, scapegoats aplenty, gradually leading to something deeply unpleasant . And the complete divorce of the left and the working class in any meaningful sense. Again leading to something deeply unpleasant. Combined with a loss of personal freedoms and constant fear and friction. Again leading to something deeply unpleasant .
Generally not good.

Alternatively I might just be making all this up to stir racial trouble and e etching is actually perfectly fine and should stay the way it is. It'll work out alright. Apparently . I'm imagining it all..or deliberately making it up .

tbh the big war's on its way anyway, and will i believe arrive between 2018 and 2022.

 

[treelover]

Аt the moment p much the only groups that come close to frightening the establishment the way the left would like and have any sort of workable -appearing alternative to the current order are on the extreme right tbh. I mean even people like David Harvey or Peter Taaffe who say they want and end to capitalism get given platforms in stuff like the guardian and a lot of Marxist academics have a respected position in academia etc.

you often get ok fairly mild but ok, criticisms of capital by paul mason and such like in the uk press. There have been guest articles by people like hannah sell in the guardian for christ sakes. It's totally been integrated into capital to an extent it often seems to represent a subculture, than a political movement. The most visible part of the left has come to represent, or be seen to represent the interests of a subset within the political class rather than what it was ostensibly set up to do.

Dial is bang on in the view of the rise of this 'conservative religious culture' which is really bad for women and sort of what ive been alluding to in some of my posts. Its going to have an effect on how women are already going to be seen in european society and the extent to which women are visible in public space. You already see some of this with the fact that public toilets etc are increasingly being closed or that now the age limit on what age kids are supposed to be home alone by has increased which will have the effect of pushing women back into the home. I am very worried about the effects this is going to have on my life personally. I have a feeling of dread tbh at the thought of the loss of my freedoms and the thought of having the same sort of battles to fight as my great grandmother or whoever. I feel real fear for the future. Bimble is right in the sense that all this is something that has been fought for by feminists and socialists etc but I have a horrible feeling we're about to discover just how quickly it can get taken away again. With the only real current alternatives being even more reactionary and violent rather than less.

at a local level, read on here on how the IWCA were seen as real threat by the Oxford political establishment, labour, greens, academia, etc as they were challenging the cosy consensus on official multi-culturalism, political representation, etc, accused of racism, etc. The former couldn't even see the irony they were condemning people who had beaten the real nazis off the streets.

 

[frogwoman]

tbf they failed as well.

 

[Casually Red]

tbh the big war's on its way anyway, and will i believe arrive between 2018 and 2022.

That's entirely possible . And will sort all this out. It will sort everyone out. Me and you included .

 

[treelover]

Are you fucking joking ? Do you think people in Germany give one flying fuck what's written on this forum ? Or anyone for that matter ? The masses read here ? Are pickmans, VP and colely likely to shave their heads and prowl the streets looking for victims because someone on U75 is outraged at what's happened ? Cop on to yourself man .
What's happened doesn't require any propaganda to stir a reaction. It happened. And the attempts to keep it under wraps just put a temporary lid on it like a pressure cooker and made it worse. The left scene and the liberals disgraced themselves by their reaction to it . The cops and the establishment proved themselves unable to provide basic security. People feel under attack because their society HAS actually come under attack and there's absolutely nobody trustworthy to turn to now. Nobody to have faith in. Even if the far right didn't exist in Germany there'd be a violent reaction to this .
There's thankfully no far right in Ireland for example but if that happened here I guarantee you there'd be a massively violent reaction to it . People will react to this regardless. Putting it all down to the far right is a cop out . And blaming anyone here for trying to stir it is absolutely disgraceful .

Watch anti-fa mobilise rapidly against the vigilantes etc, good, but maybe they could have done so on the night of NYE, they have mobile phones, etc.