Hundreds of women assaulted in German NYE celebrations

[Casually Red]

No I'm saying they are there now, and there are more coming. Its unstoppable, so what are you going do?

IMHO you adjust, crack down on the ringleaders whatever that involves and mitigate the circumstances which led to such a larger group becoming involved.

Less of the doom mongering and sometimes over reaction.

Respect by the way.

It is stoppable, which is why other countries have different policies and aren't experiencing it . This won't be happening in Poland, Hungary, Serbia or Denmark . They wont even get off the train in denmark half the time .They're only coming to Germany in these numbers because merkel invited them . And if you think that was out of the goodness of her heart you've another thing coming .

 

[Humberto]

It is stoppable, which is why other countries have different policies and aren't experiencing it . This won't be happening in Poland, Hungary, Serbia or Denmark . They wont even get off the train in denmark half the time .They're only coming to Germany in these numbers because merkel invited them . And if you think that was out of the goodness of her heart you've another thing coming .

They go to the best destination. Which is Germany.

 

[camouflage]

I'm still not sure the whole thing wasn't a massive psy-ops on the part of Daesh, apparently they really want Europe to not let Syrian refugees in as its a bit fail for streams of muslims to be wanting out of their shitty Caliphate. Not to mention their war on the 'gray area'... they want hard division between muslims and none, no quater given none asked, they oppose people getting along and want it all them versus us so work to produce an anti-muslim backlash. As much as this mass assault on women was planned and coordinated... I dunno, just a wild baseless theory on my part really.

 

[DotCommunist]

Because if these steps aren't taken that's we're it's highly likely to go.

bollocks. You live in the 1930s. Or the 50s. or the fucking 30 Years war. Waiting for a war you never caught the train for. It won't happen this time either. The social fabric of europe has not been radically altered. Its you again, calling on all sorts of apocalyptic themes. No one dowwnplays the severity of what happened. You talk it up to great heights, clash of cultures heights.

 

[Greebozz]

As any psychologist could tell you (and I'll do so gratis), the reason you don't "recognise the accusation" is because you're not an outsider looking in neutrally, you're someone using language to make your point precisely without considering how it might be read by others. That signifies one of three things:
1) That you don't care that your post may be offensive.
2) That you're very clumsy in your language use because of poor understanding of language use, or
3) Because you are indeed a racist.



It's only hurtful if the insult can be made to stick. If you're confident that your arguments hold water, and you're able to substantiate them, then the label WON'T stick.



In other words, you're making arguments - setting forth points etc.



I'm not pouncing on "any dissent". People (even Casually Red ffs) have made decent arguments that while I don't agree with them, are possible interpretations of events. Your posts, on the other hand, are just you using those events to reiterate your opinions on immigration - opinions you were rightly pulled up for on at least one previous thread.



I don't make any such assumption, but I would note that structurally the opinions of British Asians and Black Britons have less traction than those of white Britons.



Speak for yourself. For some of us, our compassion isn't selective, and we help people wherever and whenever we can. It's called "solidarity".



You're mistaking a supposed right to free speech with a personal right to say what you like, however foolish, inflammatory or ignorant it is. We all have a right to speak freely, but it only extends as far as that. There's no licence to offend without being taken to task for the offence given.



Thus showing that you're still missing the point.

Good of you to take the time to reply to my post. You certainly laid out very clearly your thoughts and it's interesting to hear where you're coming from. I endeavoured to be as wise and compassionate and honourable in every aspect of my life. I respect all people from every race colour creed background sexual orientation. In my own possibly deluded mind everything I write here is the best analysis I'm able to produce. I'm very interested in sociology my joint degree was psychology and historic socialism. When my intelligence was last measured I was in the top 5%. That doesn't mean my opinions are correct or I am more or less valuable than any other human being. But I cannot tell a lie, a lot of the criticism my get does seem rather dumb. I wouldn't mind getting a little more respect, that would be much appreciated.

 

[Casually Red]

They go to the best destination. Which is Germany.

It's the best because of current policies , which can and will have to be changed to avoid serious societal friction. Although its probably too late now as the course has been plotted..and well..theyre Germans and and german leaders tend not to change tack no matter how bad the idea is. That's how hitler ended up in a bunker in a burning city .

When Germany goes completely to fuck I really hope there Aren't any threads on here decrying the rise of the right, mass deportations, horrific racism and all that stuff. I'll just be shrugging my shoulders and saying you got what you asked for . Not like you weren't told . It can't end up any other way .

 

[Casually Red]

bollocks. You live in the 1930s. Or the 50s. or the fucking 30 Years war. Waiting for a war you never caught the train for. It won't happen this time either. The social fabric of europe has not been radically altered. Its you again, calling on all sorts of apocalyptic themes. No one dowwnplays the severity of what happened. You talk it up to great heights, clash of cultures heights.

All through this thread the severity of what happened has been downplayed . From the very outset of the thread it was openly scoffed at. The figures were called gross exaggerations, and now they stand at 600 women. With other serious incidents elsewhere involving hundreds of migrants.The German establishment and police and media downplayed it to the extent it was buried. Feminists and lefties are running about shouting " white men rape too " and pointing at Oktoberfest as an equivalent . Its been downplayed left right and centre, by left , right and centre . The liberal media is full of people downplaying it .

The social fabric of Germany has now been radically altered because now simple nights out are going to have to be the focus of major security operations . Whether your in a town square, a railway station or a nightclub with 500 animals trying to break the doors down. Formerly safe streets are now extremely unsafe . People, particularly women or men accompanying women, will go about their social life in real fear . It has been altered and it's going to continue to be altered. what happened was unprecedented, and co ordinated . And an alien importation . A gross intrusion and attack n a people's way of life .
I don't think you're taking on board the scale of what's occurred here . In a country were people wait for the little man to go green before crossing the road. This is a major occurenceand there'll be social consequences . As well as political. And it's virtually certain to happen again because they've gotten away with it . Which tends to encourage rapists and criminals .

 

[Greebozz]

All through this thread the severity of what happened has been downplayed . From the very outset of the thread it was openly scoffed at. The figures were called gross exaggerations, and now they stand at 600 women. With other serious incidents elsewhere involving hundreds of migrants.The German establishment and police and media downplayed it to the extent it was buried. Feminists and lefties are running about shouting " white men rape too " and pointing at Oktoberfest as an equivalent . Its been downplayed left right and centre, by left , right and centre . The liberal media is full of people downplaying it .

The social fabric of Germany has now been radically altered because now simple nights out are going to have to be the focus of major security operations . Whether your in a town square, a railway station or a nightclub with 500 animals trying to break the doors down. Formerly safe streets are now extremely unsafe . People, particularly women or men accompanying women, will go about their social life in real fear . It has been altered and it's going to continue to be altered. what happened was unprecedented, and co ordinated . And an alien importation . A gross intrusion and attack n a people's way of life .
I don't think you're taking on board the scale of what's occurred here . In a country were people wait for the little man to go green before crossing the road. This is a major occurenceand there'll be social consequences . As well as political. And it's virtually certain to happen again because they've gotten away with it . Which tends to encourage rapists and criminals .

Is definitely a terribly worrying situation. It seems like in the past one could campaign on the side of the moral high ground and there would be no personal cost. Getting behind a feed the Third World concert, carrying a banner against nuclear weapons. Going on an anti-war demo. Firstly it never really changed anything but there was very little personal sacrifice. But German's decision to welcome large number of refugees was a noble humanitarian decision but one that required considerable sacrifice, change expense and disruption for the population. It was a noble endeavour saving families fleeing from a war-torn area.

Instead of families to they got huge number of young men. It only takes a tiny bit of fear and distrust for relationships to break down. Obviously Germany were being pragmatic because they couldn't stop the flow of people even if they wanted to. Surely people can't still be thinking it's a good idea for any country to take vast numbers of people from a completely different language and culture. It's an absolutely nightmare, I feel for the native Germans and the refugees, is such a difficult situation.

 

[ManchesterBeth]

there is a hierarchy of oppression on the left, no matter how many times i am shouted down for stating this, I will still argue it.

Yeah but most people don't consider themselves as belonging to the left, they see themselves as politically left-wing inclined. Being a leftist ideologue/activist is completely different to having left-wing political views.

I mean as with any subculture/scene a hierarchy of oppression is bound to exist. I'd say that the left and right have nothing to offer us (not now, not in the future) in terms of fighting for our class interests. In fact, i think the right is doing a much better job of projecting an outward and superficial facade of being down with w/c interests (and i don't just limit this to Europe and the states.)

 

[ManchesterBeth]

Is definitely a terribly worrying situation. It seems like in the past one could campaign on the side of the moral high ground and there would be no personal cost. Getting behind a feed the Third World concert, carrying a banner against nuclear weapons. Going on an anti-war demo. Firstly it never really changed anything but there was very little personal sacrifice. But German's decision to welcome large number of refugees was a noble humanitarian decision but one that required considerable sacrifice, change expense and disruption for the population. It was a noble endeavour saving families fleeing from a war-torn area.

Instead of families to they got huge number of young men. It only takes a tiny bit of fear and distrust for relationships to break down. Obviously Germany were being pragmatic because they couldn't stop the flow of people even if they wanted to. Surely people can't still be thinking it's a good idea for any country to take vast numbers of people from a completely different language and culture. It's an absolutely nightmare, I feel for the native Germans and the refugees, is such a difficult situation.

Bet Germany weren't saying that in the 60s when they required cheap labour from Turkey, Eastern Europe etc?

Just checking, is all.

 

[ManchesterBeth]

And what direction do you reckon western European society is going to head now ? I don't just mean this year with a knee jerk, but ten , fifteen years down the line ? Where do you see this going eventually ?

Greater increase in a new kind of religiosity directly tied to nationalism. An English christianity, a German Christianity etc. Purportedly laic as a surface appearance (like modernising third world nationalist despots) but deeply theocratic. Resurrection of European intellectual antisemitism both on the left and right. The muslim bigotry will be akin to that manifested in the united states against black people, insofar as white culture will have to erect the imaginary of blackness to cover up its own failures, but in reality muslims will just be an arbitrary beating stick/scapegoat. Whether some muslims are terrorists or not will become (and is becoming) increasingly irrelevant.

I'm sure it'll make you proud. Just watch the show unfold as old time morality is ensured.

 

[ManchesterBeth]

The usual? Since when has mass immigration been the usual.

It really is nothing like the trickle in the 60's and 70's you refer to, when immigration was slower, allowing for absorbtion, integration and participation in say, the unions, which meant they stood side by side with the already established population to defend wages and conditions.

How the hell are millions arriving at the same time going to integrate?

They are here to be played off against the people who are already here, so that capitalism can benefit by keeping wages down.

The turkish population did not integrate with unions for the most part. There were instances of class struggle but this solidarity between german workers has been overexaggerated and will continue to be so.

 

[ManchesterBeth]

Last night on the Paper Review on Sky Bonnie Greer, (credited with helping to end Nick Griffin's career when he appeared on Question Time), asked to comment on events in Cologne was visibly less sure-footed.

She sort of mumbled and stumbled 'no woman should have to go through this sort of thing' before going on to suggest an equivalence between the mass sexual assaults and individual women being insulted for wearing the hijab. She stopped short of saying 'payback' but It's like she's identified with the 'refugees welcome here' narrative to such an extent she feels obliged to defend all of them no matter what they are accused of.

She ended by given weight to some of the conspiracy theories while finding strange comfort in the fact that at least some of those under investigation are already 'German citizens' and so technically not really refugees at all. It's like she really thinks people will go 'Oh right, well that's entirely different then'.

A few minutes ago when Tesss Jowell on the same programme was invited by the presenter to comment on the now 600 complaints logged with police, she shifted uncomfortably before deciding to talk about her recent visit to 'the Jungle' instead. Like Greer she was desperately searching for some way, any way, to add ballast.

As much as events in Cologne and elsewhere are a late Xmas present for the far-right not just in Germany but across Europe, the weasely response of liberals of all shades, both in Germany and here, is arguably doing the most lasting political damage.

Real anti-racism will need to be an awful lot stronger than this.

No. anti-racism is a bourgeois ideology and the root of the problems that many PoC face in day-to-day society. We have to be against the concept of race entirely. the anti-racist elevates race to sacred levels (reification.)

 

[ManchesterBeth]

no they aren't. They just aren't making this face yet:

seriously if you think this level of some twats sounding off counts as a cover up then you must have been exposed to some shoddy operations in the past. The only people who will make hay from this is right politicians and right street gangs. Thats bad enough as it is but hay is what it will amount to. You asked me 10-15 years? you'll be at your job next to a bloke from syria who came here to escape the war and never left. Thats generally how these things work, most people not being obsessed with the idea that immigration is inherently socially divisive.

no they aren't. They just aren't making this face yet:

seriously if you think this level of some twats sounding off counts as a cover up then you must have been exposed to some shoddy operations in the past. The only people who will make hay from this is right politicians and right street gangs. Thats bad enough as it is but hay is what it will amount to. You asked me 10-15 years? you'll be at your job next to a bloke from syria who came here to escape the war and never left. Thats generally how these things work, most people not being obsessed with the idea that immigration is inherently socially divisive.

Much as I find CR's posts vomit inducing I do see a rise in a kind of conservative religious culture taking hold. Not explicitly far right but quite red toryish. You have to understand that the 60s counterculture has been entirely absorbed into capital and academia and is on its legs.

 

[likesfish]

Have Goldsmith feminists and lgbt come out in support of the attackers yet?.

They do have previous

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm still not sure the whole thing wasn't a massive psy-ops on the part of Daesh, apparently they really want Europe to not let Syrian refugees in as its a bit fail for streams of muslims to be wanting out of their shitty Caliphate. Not to mention their war on the 'gray area'... they want hard division between muslims and none, no quater given none asked, they oppose people getting along and want it all them versus us so work to produce an anti-muslim backlash. As much as this mass assault on women was planned and coordinated... I dunno, just a wild baseless theory on my part really.

yes. daesh sends hundreds of fighters to europe despite the military situation l. not persuaded.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

All through this thread the severity of what happened has been downplayed . From the very outset of the thread it was openly scoffed at. The figures were called gross exaggerations, and now they stand at 600 women. With other serious incidents elsewhere involving hundreds of migrants.The German establishment and police and media downplayed it to the extent it was buried. Feminists and lefties are running about shouting " white men rape too " and pointing at Oktoberfest as an equivalent . Its been downplayed left right and centre, by left , right and centre . The liberal media is full of people downplaying it .

The social fabric of Germany has now been radically altered because now simple nights out are going to have to be the focus of major security operations . Whether your in a town square, a railway station or a nightclub with 500 animals trying to break the doors down. Formerly safe streets are now extremely unsafe . People, particularly women or men accompanying women, will go about their social life in real fear . It has been altered and it's going to continue to be altered. what happened was unprecedented, and co ordinated . And an alien importation . A gross intrusion and attack n a people's way of life .
I don't think you're taking on board the scale of what's occurred here . In a country were people wait for the little man to go green before crossing the road. This is a major occurenceand there'll be social consequences . As well as political. And it's virtually certain to happen again because they've gotten away with it . Which tends to encourage rapists and criminals .

"Animals" is it?

 

[likesfish]

Oh noes cant call a mass gang of rapists bad names thats WACIST

 

[laptop]

... I'd say that the left and right have nothing to offer us (not now, not in the future) in terms of fighting for our class interests. In fact, i think the right is doing a much better job of projecting an outward and superficial facade of being down with w/c interests (and i don't just limit this to Europe and the states.)

That's worryingly like the intro to a Third Way...

 

[Bernie Gunther]

That's worryingly like the intro to a Third Way...

There's a lot of it about right now.

 

[camouflage]

yes. daesh sends hundreds of fighters to europe despite the military situation l. not persuaded.

They dont need to be fighters.

 

[bimble]

I just learnt that the first 'Take Back the Night' marches took place in several cities across west Germany, one day in 1977. UK marches followed the lead of the German feminists, fighting to lay a claim to their right to walk the streets of their cities unmolested after dark.

Women still do not have equal ownership of public space, not here or anywhere, that battle is ongoing, but in recent years the whole conversation about 'street harassment' here hasn't been about being physically touched by men in the streets it's been about verbal harassment.

What makes me so angry is that (unless I'm reading the thread all wrong) there seem to be a lot of men here who - by resisting the idea that where the attackers came from has any relevance to the NYE attacks - are in effect refusing to acknowledge that the rights of women to walk around unmolested wearing what they want etc, lets say in Cologne for instance, was hard fought for, by 40 years of relentless hard work and pressure from feminists.
To deny that 'our' ideas about consent are more advanced than those in India for instance is to deny that the last 40 years of feminism has achieved anything at all.

 

[seventh bullet]

That's worryingly like the intro to a Third Way...

Nah, he's a commie.

The only person here who approximates the above is Casually Red-Brown. Apparently the Russians are a proud 'race.'

 

[Pickman's model]

They dont need to be fighters.

they don't appear to be lovers...

so daesh send hundreds of men of military age to germany after drilling them in preparation for their mission. nah, can't see it.

 

[hot air baboon]

....I'm still unclear what the Third Way, the hegelian synthesis if you will, is between these...

....read a comment on CIF from someone claiming to be a gay man in Brussels to the effect that he knew gays & Jews who were starting to find the environment uncomfortable and moving away so its not neccessarily just a female experience

......post war immigration has been marked at least as much by "voluntary" segregation as by assimilation to foster co-existence....its not ridiculous to fear that process could harden into something more divisive...otherwise why the ( often over-done ) fear of the danger to society of all those two middle-aged football hooligans & their dog far-right political parties....

 

[laptop]

Nah, he's a commie.

That's why it was specially worrying...

The only person here who approximates the above is Casually Red-Brown. Apparently the Russians are a proud 'race.'

...who seems to be re recruiting

 

[Pickman's model]

I just learnt that the first 'Take Back the Night' marches took place in several cities across west Germany, one day in 1977. UK marches followed the lead of the German feminists, fighting to lay a claim to their right to walk the streets of their cities unmolested after dark.

Women still do not have equal ownership of public space, not here or anywhere, that battle is ongoing, but in recent years the whole conversation about 'street harassment' here hasn't been about being physically touched by men in the streets it's been about verbal harassment.

What makes me so angry is that (unless I'm reading the thread all wrong) there seem to be a lot of men here who - by resisting the idea that where the attackers came from has any relevance to the NYE attacks - are in effect refusing to acknowledge that the rights of women to walk around unmolested wearing what they want etc, lets say in Cologne for instance, was hard fought for, by 40 years of relentless hard work and pressure from feminists.
To deny that 'our' ideas about consent are more advanced than those in India for instance is to deny that the last 40 years of feminism has achieved anything at all.

i think you'll find it's been rather more than 40 years as a glance at the history of the west end in london will demonstrate.

 

[seventh bullet]

That's why it was specially worrying...



...who seems to be re recruiting

Bad news for my Koryo-saram friend, and she's proud to be Russian.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

bollocks. You live in the 1930s. Or the 50s. or the fucking 30 Years war. Waiting for a war you never caught the train for. It won't happen this time either. The social fabric of europe has not been radically altered. Its you again, calling on all sorts of apocalyptic themes. No one dowwnplays the severity of what happened. You talk it up to great heights, clash of cultures heights.

It's not just him though. There is plenty of evidence that these gangs have been victimising women and sexually harassing them for ages, without any of these culture warriors giving a toss about it that I can detect.

What's changed here is that the the far right has, it appears (see e.g. J Ed's link above) whipped up a media shitstorm about a particularly heinous example of that criminal behaviour, occurring at a time of heightened racial tension.

 

[ManchesterBeth]

That's worryingly like the intro to a Third Way...

No, I'd say that I'm to the left of the left (I.E: ultra-left) but the left has historically defended class interests (as has the right) and 3rd way fash, so the left is pretty meaningless as a label as it simply has nothing to say to me. It's basically a subculture and has been integrated into capital. The right (despite their integration) projects an appearance that superficially resembles a critique of late capitalism but isn't.