Hundreds of women assaulted in German NYE celebrations

[Anudder Oik]

the usual, absorbtion, semi acceptance, used as cheap labour. Thats whats happened with every other influx of migrants and refugees for most of my life. You do know you beat the NF right? The BNP? they are gone now. They aren't coming back and no amount of tribute acts or semi legit electoral platforms will change that This isn't going to become a polarised failed state(s) warring with people who have been taken in. Just the usual exploitation by capitalists. Aint life grand

The usual? Since when has mass immigration been the usual.

It really is nothing like the trickle in the 60's and 70's you refer to, when immigration was slower, allowing for absorbtion, integration and participation in say, the unions, which meant they stood side by side with the already established population to defend wages and conditions.

How the hell are millions arriving at the same time going to integrate?

They are here to be played off against the people who are already here, so that capitalism can benefit by keeping wages down.

 

[Casually Red]

Well, we feel like that. Imagine what the women of Cologne and their husbands, sons and friends feel? Who will they vote for and support with that feeling in mind?

This was cologne before this happened . And I'd point put here it's much too easy to dismiss this entire lot as neo nazis and far right. Quite a few are without a doubt but quite a few aren't as well . Some " interesting " characters to say the least at about 5 ; 20 in . But years ago many of those people wouldn't have stood with these scum . It's happening now .
A few of my mates are in that ultra scene , one of whom was showing me a nice vid of them getting a few slaps in at a few stray pegida a few weeks ago . But according to them due to immigration policies in Germany and the social changes coming about many of the ultras they formerly could have influenced and who had some left wing sympathies are all veering right these days . And that's not coming from within the ultra scene as such but from within the working class itself . The ground is shifting and things are going in a bad direction . While people like them are becoming fewer and fewer , and more demoralised . Because they aren't happy with the scale of immigration either , nor the infantile manner in which the left handle dissent on the issue .



Christ knows what that's going to be like now

 

[DotCommunist]

The usual? Since when has mass immigration been the usual.

It really is nothing like the trickle in the 60's and 70's you refer to, when immigration was slower, allowing for absorbtion, integration and participation in say, the unions, which meant they stood side by side with the already established population to defend wages and conditions.

How the hell are millions arriving at the same time going to integrate?

They are here to be played off against the people who are already here, so that capitalism can benefit by keeping wages down.

I haven't checked the numbers but no I was not talking solely about the 60s and 70s.

I'm not going to check, someone else may, but last time you compared some figures with me you were 2,600 years out of date. You've a real agenda, no doubt you see it as excoriating the latte sipping lefto islington set but whatever. Keep exposing that hypocrisy.

 

[J Ed]

Jesus, look at the water cannon it's like something from a dystopian novel. Same one as was used against Pegida yesterday, where was it on NYE?

 

[Casually Red]

Jesus, look at the water cannon it's like something from a dystopian novel. Same one as was used against Pegida yesterday, where was it on NYE?

Where was the pepper spray even ?

 

[Joe Reilly]

Last night on the Paper Review on Sky Bonnie Greer, (credited with helping to end Nick Griffin's career when he appeared on Question Time), asked to comment on events in Cologne was visibly less sure-footed.

She sort of mumbled and stumbled 'no woman should have to go through this sort of thing' before going on to suggest an equivalence between the mass sexual assaults and individual women being insulted for wearing the hijab. She stopped short of saying 'payback' but It's like she's identified with the 'refugees welcome here' narrative to such an extent she feels obliged to defend all of them no matter what they are accused of.

She ended by given weight to some of the conspiracy theories while finding strange comfort in the fact that at least some of those under investigation are already 'German citizens' and so technically not really refugees at all. It's like she really thinks people will go 'Oh right, well that's entirely different then'.

A few minutes ago when Tesss Jowell on the same programme was invited by the presenter to comment on the now 600 complaints logged with police, she shifted uncomfortably before deciding to talk about her recent visit to 'the Jungle' instead. Like Greer she was desperately searching for some way, any way, to add ballast.

As much as events in Cologne and elsewhere are a late Xmas present for the far-right not just in Germany but across Europe, the weasely response of liberals of all shades, both in Germany and here, is arguably doing the most lasting political damage.

Real anti-racism will need to be an awful lot stronger than this.

 

[Casually Red]

the usual, absorbtion, semi acceptance, used as cheap labour. Thats whats happened with every other influx of migrants and refugees for most of my life. You do know you beat the NF right? The BNP? they are gone now. They aren't coming back and no amount of tribute acts or semi legit electoral platforms will change that. This isn't going to become a polarised failed state(s) warring with people who have been taken in. Just the usual exploitation by capitalists. Aint life grand

I'm not talking about Britain...who's taking very few of these people...I'm talking about Europe . You've seen le pens popularity , right ? Poland ? Hungary ? Slovakia ? Finland ? Denmark ?

No offence but I think your being seriously complacent here .

 

[J Ed]

Far-right websites are alleging a similar media coverup of events that look quite similar in Sweden last summer. Seems to be being corroborated by mainstream media too.

 

[DotCommunist]

I'm not talking about Britain...who's taking very few of these people...I'm talking about Europe . You've seen le pens popularity , right ? Poland ? Hungary ? Slovakia ? Finland ? Denmark ?

No offence but I think your being seriously complacent here .

its not complacency its reality. There will be issues and they'll play out for longer than I might suppose but no one is having a new far right on a holocaust ticket. I'd be more worried about the established, in power, right using the pressure from its extreme right to cement position through concessions to its extreme wing and whipping up the sort of fervour we see from you and annuder oik. Farage for instance might if he chose make big talk from this. But its not the rise of the new right fostered by etc etc.


and its the established extreme neoliberal right currently running internment camps that imprison kids for years on end as well.

 

[Casually Red]

its not complacency its reality. There will be issues and they'll play out for longer than I might suppose but no one is having a new far right on a holocaust ticket. I'd be more worried about the established, in power, right using the pressure from its extreme right to cement position through concessions to its extreme wing and whipping up the sort of fervour we see from you and annuder oik. Farage for instance might if he chose make big talk from this. But its not the rise of the new right fostered by etc etc.


and its the established extreme neoliberal right currently running internment camps that imprison kids for years on end as well.

It's the established in power neo liberal right in Germany who've implemented an unprecedented virtually open doors immigration policy . And been complicit in playing this entire thing down . You're saying they're now going to use this an excuse to do what they really want to do ?

That doesn't make an ounce of sense .

 

[Casually Red]

Far-right websites are alleging a similar media coverup of events that look quite similar in Sweden last summer. Seems to be being corroborated by mainstream media too.

Sweden is absolutely fucked . It's crazy what happened there policy wise . And is happening when anyone raises these issues .

What's the gist of the allegations ?

 

[DotCommunist]

It's the established in power neo liberal right in Germany who've implemented an unprecedented virtually open doors immigration policy . And been complicit in playing this entire thing down . You're saying they're now going to use this an excuse to do what they really want to do ?

That doesn't make an ounce of sense .

use anti immigrant rhetoric to get votes, create an other who divides worker from worker, talk loud and bash immigrants while using their cheap labour? No sir, thats madness. Who would ever do such a thing.

 

[J Ed]

Sweden is absolutely fucked . It's crazy what happened there policy wise . And is happening when anyone raises these issues .

What's the gist of the allegations ?

English lang article on far-right website Exposing Major PC Cover-up in Sweden – Leading Daily Dagens Nyheter Refused to Write About Cologne-like Sex Crimes in Central Stockholm

Newspaper reporting on the same here, but in Swedish Polisen mörkade övergrepp på festival

 

[Casually Red]

use anti immigrant rhetoric to get votes, create an other who divides worker from worker, talk loud and bash immigrants while using their cheap labour? No sir, thats madness. Who would ever do such a thing.

But they aren't bashing immigrants, not even when they're raping women . They're covering it up. Which is another major part of the public outrage . And they're using pro immigrant rhetoric to get votes. Which is why they have an open door policy .

 

[DotCommunist]

They're covering it up

no they aren't. They just aren't making this face yet:

seriously if you think this level of some twats sounding off counts as a cover up then you must have been exposed to some shoddy operations in the past. The only people who will make hay from this is right politicians and right street gangs. Thats bad enough as it is but hay is what it will amount to. You asked me 10-15 years? you'll be at your job next to a bloke from syria who came here to escape the war and never left. Thats generally how these things work, most people not being obsessed with the idea that immigration is inherently socially divisive.

 

[Casually Red]

English lang article on far-right website Exposing Major PC Cover-up in Sweden – Leading Daily Dagens Nyheter Refused to Write About Cologne-like Sex Crimes in Central Stockholm

Newspaper reporting on the same here, but in Swedish Polisen mörkade övergrepp på festival

They simply didn't want to know . It's so damn depressing .

 

[Casually Red]

no they aren't. They just aren't making this face yet:

seriously if you think this level of some twats sounding off counts as a cover up then you must have been exposed to some shoddy operations in the past. The only people who will make hay from this is right politicians and right street gangs. Thats bad enough as it is but hay is what it will amount to. You asked me 10-15 years? you'll be at your job next to a bloke from syria who came here to escape the war and never left. Thats generally how these things work, most people not being obsessed with the idea that immigration is inherently socially divisive.

No what I ...and many otherpeople...think is a cover up is a state media deliberately sitting on the story for a week and a police report being fabricated in another establishment attempt to ensure nobody found about it . The victims of these assaults...over 300 now just in cologne..are among the twats sounding off . If you don't think the events of new years eve , which are directly linked to mass immigration, and the reaction of the establishment to them, and the reaction of the left to them , aren't going to prove socially divisive you've another thing coming .

Your view of this sounds totally Anglo centric, like the rest of Europe is just like Britain . It isn't . That's why farage can't get elected but the FN in France are massive, and presidential contenders. Yet you can't see any social division worth speaking about ? You compare them to Griffins busted flush ? And you can't see the forces that have driven them to these levels are currently being magnified to an nprecedented level across Europe ? No offence but I think you've the head in the sand on this .

 

[DotCommunist]

No what I ...and many otherpeople...think is a cover up is a state media deliberately sitting on the story for a week and a police report being fabricated in another establishment attempt to ensure nobody found about it . The victims of these assaults...over 300 now just in cologne..are among the twats sounding off . If you don't think the events of new years eve , which are directly linked to mass immigration, and the reaction of the establishment to them, and the reaction of the left to them , aren't going to prove socially divisive you've another thing coming .

Your view of this sounds totally Anglo centric, like the rest of Europe is just like Britain . It isn't . That's why farage can't get elected but the FN in France are massive, and presidential contenders. Yet you can't see any social division worth speaking about ? You compare them to Griffins busted flush ? And you can't see the forces that have driven them to these levels are currently being magnified to an nprecedented level across Europe ? No offence but I think you've the head in the sand on this .

we'll see. I had similar 'rivers of' chat when east anglia, my region, took in britains majority of the refugees from the Kosovan war. Was it a quick and easy intergration? not really. Has it settled down and people just getting on with the business of being people? yes.
Life isn't a war, society isn't a war. Most people adapt and settle. Some go home when its safe. God knows when that will be the case for syrians but his will, it will be a homeland for them again one day. In the meantime we have the situation we have. And we have to deal with it. What are the other choices? camps? badges? To take this and run, as you and other right wingers have, is to deliberately inflame. And it cheapens the struggles against sexual assault to do so by making this a refugee issue done by refugees like they are a homogenous bloc

 

[treelover]

Many many Kosovans, et have gone back to their country, it was for a temporary period.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

A recent comparison (from 2010) of the immigrant populations of the UK and France - numbers of foreign-born:




France 64,716 7,196 2,118 5,078
UK 62,008 7,012 2,245 4,767

Looks pretty similar to me. There are of course reasons why the FN is strong in France at the moment, but a drastically different pattern of immigration from that happening in the UK is not one of them.

edit: formatting fucked. First figure total population. Second figure foreign born. Third figure foreign born from EU. Fourth figure foreign born outside EU. Near as damn it the same.

 

[Casually Red]

we'll see. I had similar 'rivers of' when east anglia, my region, took in britains majority of the refugees from the Kosovan war. Was it a quick and easy intergration? not really. Has it settled down and people just getting on with the business of being people? yes.
Life isn't a war, society isn't a war. Most people adapt and settle. Some go home when its safe. God knows when that will be the case for syrians but his will, it will be a homeland for them again one day. In the meantime we have the situation we have. And we have to deal with it. What are the other choices? camps? badges? To take this and run, as you and other right wingers have, is to deliberately inflame.

The entire population of Kosovo is less than 2 million in its entirety . Britains proportion of their refugees , which was a mere fraction of that population, was tiny . Merkel has opened the German borders to approximately a million people a year, so far .
The kosovan refugees , who'd been brought up in a socialist society, did not engage in a mass co ordinated assault and rape spree across east Anglia on new years eve . The 2 scenarios are not remotely comparable .

You keep saying we have to deal with it ? How ? What you sound like you're saying is the rape gangs will tire of it eventually and people will just have to put up with it until they do . No matter how much their quality of life is dragged down by these immigration policies . That seems to be it in a nutshell . And in the meantime we should keep quiet otherwise the right will benefit from it .

I don't think you realise how self defeating that argument actually is .

 

[DotCommunist]

The population of Kosovo is less than 2 million in its entirety . Britains proportion of their refugees , which was a mere fraction of that population, was tiny . Merkel has opened the German borders to approximately a million people a year, so far .
The kosovan refugees , who'd been brought up in a socialist society, did not engage in a mass co ordinated assault and rape spree across east Anglia on new years eve . The 2 scenarios are not remotely comparable .

You keep saying we have to deal with it ? How ? What you sound like you're saying is the rape gangs will tire of it eventually and people will just have to put up with it until they do . No matter how much their quality of life is dragged down by these immigration policies . That seems to be it in a nutshell . And in the meantime we should keep quiet otherwise the right will benefit from it .

I don't think you realise how self defeating that argument actually is .

tbf its not just the kosovans this region saw an influx of, which is why I can enjoy a polish paprika sausage and a can of lech some days. The influx was huge and caused some tensions in the region, but things worked out.

However you just neatly elided these horrific incidentswith a 'rape gang culture' didn't you? a group that would be despised in its home territory. A grouping that would be universally reviled when exposed in our own society. Its a fairly shit thing here, you take the actions of an organized bunch of cunts (some of whom aren't even fugee or migrant- just brown) and declare that this, this is what we must endure so the liberal left can feel non racist

I'm not the liberal left and I don't think sexual assaulters should go without a slap and a nicking. The point is that you and others have been waiting, hanging on for it, an incident of this kind where you could climb the throne and call it all doom, rivers of it etc.

Whats happened, happened. Shit for everyone on the wrong end of it, I have every empathy. But I won't sit here and let some people climb the 'no more migrant!' pole cos you know, they are ALL rapists now. Like you always thought they were etc

 

[Casually Red]

600 women now ?

 

[Humberto]

The entire population of Kosovo is less than 2 million in its entirety . Britains proportion of their refugees , which was a mere fraction of that population, was tiny . Merkel has opened the German borders to approximately a million people a year, so far .
The kosovan refugees , who'd been brought up in a socialist society, did not engage in a mass co ordinated assault and rape spree across east Anglia on new years eve . The 2 scenarios are not remotely comparable .

You keep saying we have to deal with it ? How ? What you sound like you're saying is the rape gangs will tire of it eventually and people will just have to put up with it until they do . No matter how much their quality of life is dragged down by these immigration policies . That seems to be it in a nutshell . And in the meantime we should keep quiet otherwise the right will benefit from it .

I don't think you realise how self defeating that argument actually is .

What should the German authorities be doing? How are they supposed to deal with the situation? People are risking their lives and often losing them in pursuit of coming here to the EU.

 

[laptop]

The usual? Since when has mass immigration been the usual.

The correct answer is "at least 10,000 years ago".

 

[Casually Red]

tbf its not just the kosovans this region saw an influx of, which is why I can enjoy a polish paprika sausage and a can of lech some days. The influx was huge and caused some tensions in the region, but things worked out.

However you just neatly elided these horrific incidentswith a 'rape gang culture' didn't you? a group that would be despised in its home territory. A grouping that would be universally reviled when exposed in our own society. Its a fairly shit thing here, you take the actions of an organized bunch of cunts (some of whom aren't even fugee or migrant- just brown) and declare that this, this is what we must endure so the liberal left can feel non racist

I'm not the liberal left and I don't think sexual assaulters should go without a slap and a nicking. The point is that you and others have been waiting, hanging on for it, an incident of this kind where you could climb the throne and call it all doom, rivers of it etc.

Whats happened, happened. Shit for everyone on the wrong end of it, I have every empathy. But I won't sit here and let some people climb the 'no more migrant!' pole cos you know, they are ALL rapists now. Like you always thought they were etc

This is bullshit. Plainly they aren't all rapists , and nobody's said they are . But there is a massive fucking problem there that western society is plainly unable to cope with . Therefore letting young men in in such massive numbers is going to have a negative impact on the societies they enter .

What happened happened ? It took almost a week for the authorities and media to admit it had happened at all. And it's been met with scorn initially by the left, as if it was a right wing trope . And we are still finding out what exactly did happen , and you're just shrugging your shoulders . When the fact is it could happen again, and most likely will . And it seems this stuff has happened before elsewhere and been covered up .

You brought up Ireland a few posts back . When it became apparent the catholic church had been complicit in sexual assaults and their cover up society swung massively against them . Hugely .The political and social landscape changed drastically . And yet your saying alll this will simply result in business as usual ? That there'll be next to no reaction and things will stay the same ?

The last sentence of your post is just an attempt to smear those opposed to mass immigration on this scale as racists . We've already got Laurie Penny and the mayor of cologne for that. Frankly I think that's beneath you .

 

[DotCommunist]

This is bullshit. Plainly they aren't all rapists , and nobody's said they are . But there is a massive fucking problem there that western society is plainly unable to cope with . Therefore letting young men in in such massive numbers is going to have a negative impact on the societies they enter .

What happened happened ? It took almost a week for the authorities and media to admit it had happened at all. And it's been met with scorn initially by the left, as if it was a right wing trope . And we are still finding out what exactly did happen , and you're just shrugging your shoulders . When the fact is it could happen again, and most likely will . And it seems this stuff has happened before elsewhere and been covered up .

You brought up Ireland a few posts back . When it became apparent the catholic church had been complicit in sexual assaults and their cover up society swung massively against them . Hugely .The political and social landscape changed drastically . And yet your saying alll this will simply result in business as usual ? That there'll be next to no reaction and things will stay the same ?

The last sentence of your post is just an attempt to smear those opposed to mass immigration on this scale as racists . We've already got Laurie Penny and the mayor of cologne for that. Frankly I think that's beneath you .

I don't shrug at all. You remind me of the 'YOU MUST CONDEMN THE VIOLENCE' sorts after the 2011 tottenham riots. No depth. Anyone who objects must be an enabler and worse. No one is also saying a social landscape won't change. But not in the horrendous way you imagine. There's polish kids at the local schools now, polish teenagers and easter european teenagers born here who can do k'rring flavoured english and fluent polish or russian or whatever it is ( a few former yugoslav families near my shop. One lady works there and remembers tito fondly. I shit you not. 'you knew where you where with tito'). Thats what happens. Societies intergrate to varying degrees. Decry those wanks trying to cover up organised rape attempts by all means, they are part of the problem. But so are you with the rhetoric of social warfare.

 

[Casually Red]

What should the German authorities be doing? How are they supposed to deal with the situation? People are risking their lives and often losing them in pursuit of coming here to the EU.

They should tell them ...young single men..not to come, that immigration on this scale isn't welcome and can't be coped with . That's what's attracting them in such massive numbers, merkels invite and schengen . Which will probably end up finished before too long .

And they should try arresting them for these crimes and not covering it up . Are you seriously going to sit there and tell methe German authorities Have done all they could ? They did fuck all except try and cover it up. And then tell women not to provoke them in future and stick to a code of conduct .

What should they be doing ?

If these were white football hooligans you'd have a listof suggestions , and punishments, longer than the Laurie penny thread . And thered be no shouting about how all white football hooligans weren't gang rapists either . They'd all be hung .

 

[Humberto]

They should tell them ...young single men..not to come, that immigration on this scale isn't welcome and can't be coped with . That's what's attracting them in such massive numbers, merkels invite and schengen . Which will probably end up finished before too long .

And they should try arresting them for these crimes and not covering it up . Are you seriously going to sit there and tell methe German authorities Have done all they could ? They did fuck all except try and cover it up. And then tell women not to provoke them in future and stick to a code of conduct .

What should they be doing ?

If these were white football hooligans you'd have a listof suggestions , and punishments, longer than the Laurie penny thread . And thered be no shouting about how all white football hooligans weren't gang rapists either . They'd all be hung .

No I'm saying they are there now, and there are more coming. Its unstoppable, so what are you going do?

IMHO you adjust, crack down on the ringleaders whatever that involves and mitigate the circumstances which led to such a larger group becoming involved.

Less of the doom mongering and sometimes over reaction.

Respect by the way.

 

[Casually Red]

I don't shrug at all. You remind me of the 'YOU MUST CONDEMN THE VIOLENCE' sorts after the 2011 tottenham riots. No depth. Anyone who objects must be an enabler and worse. No one is also saying a social landscape won't change. There's polish kids at the local schools now, polish teenagers and easter european teenagers born here who can do k'rring flavoured english and fluent polish or russian or whatever it is. Thats what happens. Societies intergragte to varying degrees. Decry those wanks trying to cover up organised rape attempts by all means, they are part of the problem. But so are you with the rheoric of social warfare.

Your actually comparing Poland to the middle east ?

You'd compare Euro 2012 to Tahrir square ? Are you serious ? It's like what's happened hasn't happened . The poles haven't changed the social landscape for the worse. These guys have ,drastically so . that's a massive difference .

It's like this hasn't happened , that there shouldn't be any anger over it and nothing needs to change . Except people are extremely angry over it and they're going to demand change . Pointing that...very obvious..dimension out isn't engaging in social warfare . Neither is being angry. Neither is wanting to see them all arrested and deported . And neither is wanting eu immigration policies changed either. None of that is social warfare. It's an attempt to ensure we don't end up there . Because if these steps aren't taken that's we're it's highly likely to go.

The fact is somebody had said to you a fortnight ago something like this could happen you'd call them a racist . Even i probably would have lBut it's a fact of life now. And there'll be a social reaction to it .