Hundreds of women assaulted in German NYE celebrations

[J Ed]

The idea that a gang of a thousand or more committed rape and other sexual crimes is one if the misleading things in the media, but you apparently still buy into that so no wonder you didn't notice.

If you went to a street party and significant numbers of the people around you spent the night assaulting women, and in some cases cornering them and raping them, would you continue to just hang around and drink? I can understand not intervening, it must be incredibly frightening to be in that situation, but staying and giving them cover? Whoever did that was complicit in what went on.

 

[bimble]

There'll be rumours about you next, hints..dark hints. Just wait and see.

I totally disagree with you about sex people though, and about the dogpoo. Don't ever forget that.

 

[Teenage Cthulhu]

It's the 'if question' that most needs addressing though. It's the question that 99% of people are asking. The left needs a response, even if that response is to deny that there was a correlation.

(Y)

Yeah, and they (the left) will do what they always do these days and panic. Panic whilst burying their head in the sand. It is not the first time the left have looked impotent and it is part of their problem.

 

[bimble]

Yeah, and they (the left) will do what they always do these days and panic. Panic whilst burying their head in the sand. It is not the first time the left have looked impotent and it is part of their problem.

Thus leaving the arena of conversation and reporting / enquiry totally free for our worst fears.

 

[Teenage Cthulhu]

It is OK, UKIP, the EDL et al will take up the slack and fill in the chasm left by the left/

 

[bimble]

 

[Casually Red]

If you went to a street party and significant numbers of the people around you spent the night assaulting women, and in some cases cornering them and raping them, would you continue to just hang around and drink? I can understand not intervening, it must be incredibly frightening to be in that situation, but staying and giving them cover? Whoever did that was complicit in what went on.

Exactly, they were all accomplices to the crime. Every last one of thems a fucking no mark and a scumbag . And every last one of them bears a share of the responsibility for what happened . And ...and this is so bloody unmistakably obvious..if they were white westerners we wouldn't even need to be pointing it out . That we have to point this out here is an absolute disgrace .

 

[elbows]

What size was this crowd then do you reckon ? Just for clarity .

This shit was clarified days ago, its the conflation of the size of a total crowd with the number of actual perpetrators that I'm complaining about.

My complaints would be counterproductive if they went so far as to only acknowledge the actions of individual perpetrators or very small groups. Because I would not be at all surprising if there are crowd-related phenomenon here that are a worthy part of the story. But the characterisations of there being '1000 perpetrators' seems very unlikely to do the reality justice, and the police felt the need to point out that they are not on the hunt for 1000 suspects or anything like that number.

 

[Casually Red]

This shit was clarified days ago, its the conflation of the size of a total crowd with the number of actual perpetrators that I'm complaining about.

My complaints would be counterproductive if they went so far as to only acknowledge the actions of individual perpetrators or very small groups. Because I would not be at all surprising if there are crowd-related phenomenon here that are a worthy part of the story. But the characterisations of there being '1000 perpetrators' seems very unlikely to do the reality justice, and the police felt the need to point out that they are not on the hunt for 1000 suspects or anything like that number.

Plainly you don't regard a perpetrators accomplice as worth a mention then.

Jodie foster once acted in a very moving, and frankly hard to watch film called " the accused " . You should watch it sometime, you might learn something useful .

 

[bimble]

Call me a naive idiot feminist newbie with too many degrees in the totally racist subject called anthropology,but.. fuck. The silence of the left is like a bell tolling, it's scary.

 

[elbows]

Exactly, they were all accomplices to the crime. Every last one of thems a fucking no mark and a scumbag . And every last one of them bears a share of the responsibility for what happened . And ...and this is so bloody unmistakably obvious..if they were white westerners we wouldn't even need to be pointing it out . That we have to point this out here is an absolute disgrace .

Your fondness for collective judgement and punishment rears its ugly head again.

It should never be a question of 'every last one of them', at least not until you more clearly define 'them'.

There are certainly people who were complicit in the situation in general and in some cases perhaps also some directly enabled sexual crimes with the full knowledge of what they were enabling. For example this paragraph from the WSJ story I quoted at length from a few posts back:

Groups of aggressive men failed to obey police orders and hindered officers from trying to rescue women who were being assaulted by fencing them off in large groups, the police official added in the report.

I don't want to brush that under the carpet at all. But I'm not just going to mix it all together with large numbers from previous versions of the story and end up with a distorted picture thanks.

 

[Teenage Cthulhu]

A lot of Le Bonn and his theories of the mob and mob behaviour have been discredited haven't they?

After Googling it seems they have been improved upon rather than discredited

 

[J Ed]

How did people in the group that weren't participating directly in the assaults or rapes behave?

Cologne Assaults: Police Report Outlines 'Chaotic and Shameful' New Year's Eve - SPIEGEL ONLINE

Officers were hindered from pushing their way through to people calling for help by tight clusters of men.

 

[elbows]

A lot of Le Bonn and his theories of the mob and mob behaviour have been discredited haven't they?

I'm not sure, but I would expect yes, at least some of it written off due to it saying at least as much about the mindset of the people who came up with the theories as the actual reality. But there are still crowd-related phenomenon to be discussed, I just wouldn't want to look at it in isolation or through the prism of a shit headline about 1000 perpetrators.

 

[sovereignb]

Call me a naive idiot feminist newbie with too many degrees in the totally racist subject called anthropology, ie, different cultures, but.. fuck. It's not ok to even want to talk about this is it.

Don't look for validity in this place. There are too many members not wanting to appear/feel "right wing" or like a "Daily Mail reader" as opposed to just having their own views and having rational discussions. They tend to be far more closed minded and ignorant than the "fascists" they claim everyone else is.

 

[Casually Red]

Your fondness for collective judgement and punishment rears its ugly head again.

It should never be a question of 'every last one of them', at least not until you more clearly define 'them'.

There are certainly people who were complicit in the situation in general and in some cases perhaps also some directly enabled sexual crimes with the full knowledge of what they were enabling. For example this paragraph from the WSJ story I quoted at length from a few posts back:



I don't want to brush that under the carpet at all. But I'm not just going to mix it all together with large numbers from previous versions of the story and end up with a distorted picture thanks.

 

[bluescreen]

I just walked home through the park which was totally dark (no streetlights no moon).
It was a tiny bit scary and maybe a tiny bit silly of me to choose to do that, alone.
Do you think a young(ish) woman in say Delhi would have chosen that route ?
I don't think she would. Am I a racist for saying that she is less safe than me ?

I was foolish enough to suggest this a while back to a friend in Delhi, who was outraged at my racism. He has heard too many stories about sexual assault and child abuse in the UK to imagine that things are any better here. (Not that he's ever been here.) Actually, I agree with you. I think they are.

But I don't know what Delhi has to do with this story from Cologne. No one is suggesting that the perps came from Delhi. I get your general point that people are so afraid of being called racist that they won't even engage with the idea that criminals have slipped in alongside everyone else. Or that some people (not all) from some cultures have a way to go in understanding that women are fully autonomous human beings equal to men. Hell, we even have that problem here, but - we like to tell ourselves - not quite as badly.

 

[bimble]

How did people in the group that weren't participating directly in the assaults or rapes behave?

Cologne Assaults: Police Report Outlines 'Chaotic and Shameful' New Year's Eve - SPIEGEL ONLINE

I don't think the Spiegel is the way to go - it says
"People reportedly demonstratively tore up residence permits in front of the police, grinned and said: "You can't touch me. I'll just go back tomorrow and get a new one." The report did not, however, confirm the authenticity of the documents."

That sounds a bit mad and made up.
Spiegel in German = Mirror (literally and I think - check out the photos - politically too)

 

[Casually Red]

I'm not sure, but I would expect yes, at least some of it written off due to it saying at least as much about the mindset of the people who came up with the theories as the actual reality. But there are still crowd-related phenomenon to be discussed, I just wouldn't want to look at it in isolation or through the prism of a shit headline about 1000 perpetrators.

Try looking at it through the prism of that mob of lowlifes helpless victims, so far over 100 and counting, and you might get somewhere .

 

[Brainaddict]

How did people in the group that weren't participating directly in the assaults or rapes behave?

Cologne Assaults: Police Report Outlines 'Chaotic and Shameful' New Year's Eve - SPIEGEL ONLINE

Thanks for posting new information. It sounds a horrendous situation. Police sound seriously incompetent - the impression is they had insufficient numbers for quite some time. There surely must have been other police officers in other parts of the city who could have been called in.

To those who say that the people asking for facts rather than ranting generalisations are trying to 'cover up' what happened or deny who was involved - this is a bit of a long thread to be described as a cover-up, and I haven't seen anyone denying things when they have been well evidenced. If there isn't enough evidence, that's not 'denial', that's taking care to discuss what really happened.

 

[elbows]

Try looking at it through the prism of that mob of lowlifes helpless victims, so far over 100 and counting, and you might get somewhere .

The number of victims, how they were failed, who abused them, how they can be supported now, and how this will be prevented from happening again is of course at the heart of the matter. I happen to think the bullshit tough-talk about dealing with all the thousand+ perpetrators detracts from that, rather than helping it.

There is lots of stuff I'd like to delve into involving the perpetrators and various levels of enablers that were part of gangs or crowds. But I don't think I can get my teeth into it with the necessary gusto until more emerges about some of the perpetrators that they hopefully catch. '1000 perpetrators' is not a placeholder I'm happy to live with in the meantime.

 

[Brainaddict]

Just to be clear, I hope the perpetrators are caught, and I hope there is in an investigation into any gangs, if they are more permanent groupings. Misogyny and rape culture should be addressed wherever it is found, and I agree with what some people are trying to say, that it is stronger in some cultures and subcultures than others.

I would add though that ranting about letting in 'criminals' at the borders is, I suspect, not a good way to address rape culture.

 

[Casually Red]

Your being disingenuous, and deliberately so. It's been pointed out frequently to you the perpetrators had accomplices. Many hundreds of them . Seemingly 1000. Plainly you don't regard those who carried on drinking and enjoying themselves in the midst of mass sexual assault and rape right in front of them, and in the knowledge weight of numbers was actively enabling these animalistic attacks to one degree or another as an accomplice to mass sexual assault and rape . So your quibbling and attempting to downplay it as sensationalism .
I'd bet my life their victims who were stuck in the middle of this mob would take a different view. And so do I. Every last one of them who stood there and carried on partying while this happened in front of them bears responsibility for it. Every last single one of them .

 

[ViolentPanda]

I find it hard to understand too. But there's too many examples of sexual violence against women following the collapse of social structure due to war for me to even have a clue what to suggest you google. Not talking about rape as a weapon of war, just as a consequence. Maybe just try typing in 'women' and the name of any refugee camp you can think of.

Germany, May 1944-onward. Conservative estimate was 2.5 million women and female children raped.

 

[treelover]

I think the culture problem at the root of this isn't Islamic or Arab but primarily a criminal , anti social gang type subculture . First and foremost these bastards are thugs and criminals no matter from where they originated . But the almost identical methods of assault witnessed in Tahrir square makes me suspect it's a particular trait of criminal and anti social gangs from the middle eastern neck of the woods . A calling card of sorts . I honestly don't think Islam has anything much to do with it. To me its just a disturbing aspect of a particular criminal subculture they have over there. That's now making waves in mainland Europe thanks to a massive, barely regulated population influx of literally hundreds of thousands of transient able bodied young men nobody has the first fucking clue about . Many of whom will , naturally, be criminals on the hop or generally out for themselves .

I reckon one good way to nip this in the bud is to make involvement in organised crime..ie criminal gangs..a deportable offence. "You're in a pick pocket , mugging or drug dealing gang ??? Right well , that's not just a misdemeanour . That's organised crime . Fuck off . I'm sure president Assad has a nice punishment battalion on the front line meat grinder he could find a spot for you in. "

Fuck em . It's just organised criminality, nothing to do with Islam or ethnicity . Take these gangs apart methodically and the streets will be a lot safer . As will the asylum shelters because you can bet your ass the same things happening there too .

Apprently , a lot the attackers were very drunk, some on drugs, afaik, not a very Islamic thing to do

 

[ViolentPanda]

If it turns out a correlation exists between the perpetrators of this crime and their ethnicity/immigration status, what do we say then?

We analyse whether the correlation has a germane cause or not.

 

[treelover]

No I'm not, I'm telling you how people are going to react. Do you want me to tell you the average German is going to bake refugees a fucking cake now ? Because they aren't. There'll be unpleasant social consequences as a result of this . Not just because of what's happened but because of the precautions that will now have to be taken to prevent a repetition. For years to come.

Pointing out the absolutely fucking obvious does not make me remotely right wing .

Many of the criminal elements will just abscond now, no registration, etc, a new criminal much better armed underground will develop.

 

[Teenage Cthulhu]

Apprently , a lot the attackers were very drunk, some on drugs, afaik, not a very Islamic thing to do

A lot of the students I went to college with and some of my friends indulged in activities that were far from Islamic. Especially on a weekend.

 

[Casually Red]

Just to be clear, I hope the perpetrators are caught, and I hope there is in an investigation into any gangs, if they are more permanent groupings. Misogyny and rape culture should be addressed wherever it is found, and I agree with what some people are trying to say, that it is stronger in some cultures and subcultures than others.

I would add though that ranting about letting in 'criminals' at the borders is, I suspect, not a good way to address rape culture.

If this type of mass sexual assault had any history in modern German society you'd have a point. However it doesn't and you don't. This type of rape culture didn't exist in Germany until these vile criminals were let cross the German border
Unchecked and unhindered .
And remember its 3 cities this occurred in simultaneously , cologne being the worst example . Germans didn't do this , it's not German rape culture. That's why the issue of who crosses borders into Germany is actually important . And if this is going to be a feature of German life, now after 3 cities are affected on the same night , then the border issue is going to become even more important.
Telling people what they can and can't talk about is utterly ridiculous. Absolutely infantile. " ranting ", fuck off.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Basically what Casually Red just said. That criminal elements have taken advantage of a genuine refugee crisis. That requires we do something to ensure an efficient and safe processing of asylum seekers, to keep tabs on new arrivals until they have settled in. To weed out the wronguns.

I think your/CR's hypothesis is simplistic, insofar as migrant "career criminals" are unlikely to risk apprehension and repatriation for something as banal as antisocial behaviour, unless they're fucking dimwits.