Hundreds of women assaulted in German NYE celebrations

[sovereignb]

My god and my really that out of touch, have I turned into some sort of Alf Garnet figure. Or rather Hitler figure.

No...there is just a very warped/naive mentality amongst i would say a majority on this forum about immigration matters.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

No...there is just a slightly warped mentality amongst i would say a majority on this forum about immigration matters.

And your reason for including a quote of me in this post was...?

 

[Greebozz]

yes, i think you are right to say that there is sexual violence elsewhere in society. but unless you know differently - and i would be grateful if you could correct me if you do - people do not congregate in groups at the oktoberfest with the professed object of sexually assaulting and robbing women in packs. i do, as i expect we all do, deplore the level of sexual violence in western society. however, the majority of sexual violence within western societies is not at the hands of strangers but at the hands of those we know and all too often at the hands of those we love.

Some good may come of all this in raising the awareness of violence against women in general and women's rights. I bet this whole story is creating much interest among the Arab world. Because there always it is a great mystery and intrigue about understanding different cultures or even the opposite sex.

 

[Pickman's model]

Some good may come of all this in raising the awareness of violence against women in general and women's rights. I bet this whole story is creating much interest among the Arab world. Because there always it is a great mystery and intrigue about understanding different cultures or even the opposite sex.

yeh nothing like that in europe

 

[Casually Red]

There are some fairly low-key policing measures that could be taken that could vastly reduce the risk of something like this happening again, at least on such a scale / in such a prolonged manner.

For this and a few other reasons, I firmly believe that it would be quite possible to have social consequences that are positive in the end, eventually. I'm not predicting thats what will actually happen because there are obviously various negative things that have been set in motion too.

But I even think its possible we could get something positive from the '1000 perpetrators' bullshit and sloppy journalism that I was complaining about yesterday - if a distorted version of this story ends up happening to enable elements of society to talk more openly about, for example, sexual abuse in other contexts, by shocking people, then that is some consolation to weigh against the original distortion.

Some shocking stories from India involving sexual violence were I'm sure met with horror and condemnation, but also anger at the status quo and the hope of some improvement to the situation. I see no reason why the same cannot be the case with this German stuff.

All of this is aside from the other potentially unleashed shit that comes from this case - e.g. attitudes towards immigration, refugees etc. I'm not trying to pretend none of that is happening here. I'm not talking about that at all in this post, just the idea that I don't believe the balance of preventative measures will be negative for society, if done right.

You regularly predicted a joyous ending to the " revolution "in Libya . You were well optimistic on Syria too for a bit iirc. Nuff said .

Thus far the preventative measures include a code of conduct for women . Yet your optimism remains unabashed . Like a ray of sunshine , or a moonbeam .

 

[sovereignb]

And your reason for including a quote of me in this post was...?

By mistake...been edited. I was actually also trying to respond to you refugee/migrant comment.

 

[Teenage Cthulhu]

I think the culture problem at the root of this isn't Islamic or Arab but primarily a criminal , anti social gang type subculture . First and foremost these bastards are thugs and criminals no matter from where they originated . But the almost identical methods of assault witnessed in Tahrir square makes me suspect it's a particular trait of criminal and anti social gangs from the middle eastern neck of the woods . A calling card of sorts . I honestly don't think Islam has anything much to do with it. To me its just a disturbing aspect of a particular criminal subculture they have over there. That's now making waves in mainland Europe thanks to a massive, barely regulated population influx of literally hundreds of thousands of transient able bodied young men nobody has the first fucking clue about . Many of whom will , naturally, be criminals on the hop or generally out for themselves .

I reckon one good way to nip this in the bud is to make involvement in organised crime..ie criminal gangs..a deportable offence. "You're in a pick pocket , mugging or drug dealing gang ??? Right well , that's not just a misdemeanour . That's organised crime . Fuck off . I'm sure president Assad has a nice punishment battalion on the front line meat grinder he could find a spot for you in. "

Fuck em . It's just organised criminality, nothing to do with Islam or ethnicity . Take these gangs apart methodically and the streets will be a lot safer . As will the asylum shelters because you can bet your ass the same things happening there too .

Spot on: "It's just organised criminality, nothing to do with Islam or ethnicity."

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

By mistake...been edited. I was actually also trying to respond to you refugee/migrant comment.

Ahh, ok. No worries.

 

[bimble]

i think even if england was being napalmed every day for 10 years i don't think i would sexually attack anyone on the strength of it. i find sexual assualts very hard to understand, no matter "how war torn the country is". can you explain why it is easier to understand?

I find it hard to understand too. But there's too many examples of sexual violence against women following the collapse of social structure due to war for me to even have a clue what to suggest you google. Not talking about rape as a weapon of war, just as a consequence. Maybe just try typing in 'women' and the name of any refugee camp you can think of.

 

[miss direct]

I think if they were Syrian refugees the behaviour would be easier to rationalise. Its not hard to see how coming from a war zone would create some fucked up group behaviour.

No, it couldn't. There are an estimated 2 million refugees here in Turkey and we don't hear about such things happening.

 

[Casually Red]

I agree large with what you say. The issue I have is how not to get too wound up about it, fundamentally I'm powerless and it's not even my country. I think a lot of people on this forum put hope in the goodness of humanity, there is much love and kindness in the world. People from Arab countries are generally the most kindest and hospitable you'll ever meet. The question I asked myself is how do I deal with my genuine concerns without letting them overwhelm. I may be wrong about the Islamic element is just that mosques are generally segregated and large groups of males are used to meeting together regularly which I should imagine creates a very powerful bond and a power base. A much more unified community than the usual Western family and a few mates.

These guys were apparently drinking the heads off themselves . I doubt they are all that religiously observant . If at all .

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Spot on: "It's just organised criminality, nothing to do with Islam or ethnicity."

If it turns out a correlation exists between the perpetrators of this crime and their ethnicity/immigration status, what do we say then?

 

[Pickman's model]

If it turns out a correlation exists between the perpetrators of this crime and their ethnicity/immigration status, what do we say then?

we say correlation is not causation

 

[bimble]

If it turns out a correlation exists between the perpetrators of this crime and their ethnicity/immigration status, what do we say then?

I don't know the book (will be amazoning it) but I think 'we' will probably say not a word because

Alain Badiou (in The Meaning of Sarkozy) talks about how the right offer fear, and the 'left' offer only fear of the right's fear.

 

[Teenage Cthulhu]

Big IF.

Correlation not causation. Yes.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

we say correlation is not causation

Then we need an explanation of what the causation is.

 

[elbows]

Thus far the preventative measures include a code of conduct for women . Yet your optimism remains unabashed . Like a ray of sunshine , or a moonbeam .

Your insistence that the new reality will include a code of conduct for women says it all about your stance.

It won't. Don't confuse the ill-judged comments from people in office in the immediate response to the shocking news, with the eventual reality. Especially when the comments, or that interpretation of them, caused an immediate backlash.

 

[sovereignb]

Refugees, not migrants, refugees.

Unless the immigration status of each person is checked, you wouldn't know what they were.

You have migrants and asylum seekers. You only become a "refugee" when you are given leave to remain in that country (after applying for asylum).

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Big IF.

It's the 'if question' that most needs addressing though. It's the question that 99% of people are asking. The left needs a response, even if that response is to deny that there was a correlation.

 

[Casually Red]

If it turns out a correlation exists between the perpetrators of this crime and their ethnicity/immigration status, what do we say then?

That they are criminals who arrived in Germany as refugees. And abused their welcome so no longer deserve one . We can also say that letting such large numbers of criminals in without any background checks was a very shit idea .

 

[Pickman's model]

Then we need an explanation of what the causation is.

what would you propose as a working hypothesis?

 

[Pickman's model]

That they are criminals who arrived in Germany as refugees. And abused their welcome so no longer deserve one . We can also say that letting such large numbers of criminals in without any background checks was a very shit idea .

cf us 1980 100000+ cubans

 

[bimble]

That they are criminals who arrived in Germany as refugees. And abused their welcome. We can also say that letting such large numbers of criminals in without any background checks was a very shit idea .

I just walked home through the park which was totally dark (no streetlights no moon).
It was a tiny bit scary and maybe a tiny bit silly of me to choose to do that, alone.
Do you think a young(ish) woman in say Delhi would have chosen that route ?
I don't think she would. Am I a racist for saying that she is less safe than me ?

 

[Casually Red]

It's the 'if question' that most needs addressing though. It's the question that 99% of people are asking. The left needs a response, even if that response is to deny that there was a correlation.

The left ...whatever that even is these days...will do the usual headless chicken on this one . The fact they need a response means they don't have one . They'll mostly fret about the far right gaining support while simultaneously denouncing anyone who's pissed off about the entire shebang as a racist and even a fascist. That will be it pretty much. Along with a few face palm slogans .

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

what would you propose as a working hypothesis?

Basically what Casually Red just said. That criminal elements have taken advantage of a genuine refugee crisis. That requires we do something to ensure an efficient and safe processing of asylum seekers, to keep tabs on new arrivals until they have settled in. To weed out the wronguns.

 

[bimble]

The left ...whatever that even is these days...will do the usual headless chicken on this one . The fact they need a response means they don't have one . They'll mostly fret about the far right gaining support while simultaneously denouncing anyone who's pissed off about the entire shebang as a racist and even a fascist. That will be it pretty much. Along with a few face palm slogans .

I agree with you. Apart from that I worry that you don't have to even be 'pissed off' to get denounced as a racist fascist, you'd just have to be brave enough to say something totally outrageous such as .. a woman walking alone after dark in London is safer than a woman doing the same in say Delhi.
Which is a fucking disaster of cowardice on the part of well-meaning people.

 

[elbows]

It's the 'if question' that most needs addressing though. It's the question that 99% of people are asking. The left needs a response, even if that response is to deny that there was a correlation.

The left can respond to the discovered detail, if and when it emerges. It can't do hardly any of the detective work, and I wouldn't want to form a response on this front until some actual facts are known. To deny there was a correlation now without detail about perpetrators would be playing into the hands of the opposite side.

 

[elbows]

Basically what Casually Red just said. That criminal elements have taken advantage of a genuine refugee crisis. That requires we do something to ensure an efficient and safe processing of asylum seekers, to keep tabs on new arrivals until they have settled in. To weed out the wronguns.

For all I know criminal elements could have been both created and sustained by a situation that existed before the refugee crisis.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

To deny there was a correlation now without detail about perpetrators would be playing into the hands of the opposite side.

I agree completely.

 

[sovereignb]

That they are criminals who arrived in Germany as refugees. And abused their welcome so no longer deserve one . We can also say that letting such large numbers of criminals in without any background checks was a very shit idea .

Unfortunately, if you are claiming asylum, background checks with regards to previous criminal activity are forgone. Its one of the reasons why people will choose to claim "asylum" as opposed to other ways of entry into a country. Its an issue ive brought up before in this forum (criminal elements getting mixed in with genuine asylum seekers) but i was hounded for being a "rascist".