Hundreds of women assaulted in German NYE celebrations

[Pickman's model]

Being on this forum makes me feel

good

 

[frogwoman]

i think you should write a book about your struggle.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

i think i'm going to get arrested and go to prison so i can write a book about it for two years

It does seem to be a good career move.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I guess I shouldn't concern myself with what other people, do think or feel because it's not really any of my business.

What I'm saying is that Germany could have said no to accepting Syrian migrants and found another way to help them nearer their point of origin. I wish that Germany had been more self-interested.

So you've said previously. As I explained then, and will re-explain now, their behaviour is self-interested. Many - perhaps the majority - of those migrants, are either skilled technical workers or members of professions. Parts of Germany - especially in what used to be East Germany/the DDR - are de-populating, and need those professionals in order to maintain civic infrastructure.

Germany is very forward thinking in terms of the environment, quality-of-life and social mobility. Pretty much every political project in these areas have been wiped off the table to deal with the huge number of migrants.

All those receiving and needing social care, educational assistance etc are going to have resources diverted away for years to come.

No, they're not.
Re-unification was a much bigger challenge to state resources, and yet was managed without affecting core services. You seem to forget (or perhaps are unaware) that the federal German state and the lande have "done their homework", and are reasonably sure that in the medium term those migrants will as a functioning German community repay what is spent on them. All this is, is a state investment opportunity.

And then you have the problem of bad behaviour. Prisons are University of crime and extremism. That leave people even further away from being able to get jobs and being part of mainstream society.

Thanks for the trite bullshit. You're obviously as poorly-informed about the German penal system, as you are about Germany in general.

You know it's going to bring out nasty elements from the right wing groups as well as the other side.

Turkish settlement did so. The sum of that is that the right is still politically-reviled as it ever was in post-war Germany.
Do some research on the latest excrescence, PEGIDA. They're tiny, but get lots of media space. Even in the east, where the right has more supporters post-reunification, they still can't muster even one percent of the populace in the eastern cities to attend their demonstrations.

I suppose I would really like people to cool down on the do gooding. And put forward thoughtful suggestions.

Granting citizenship is such a great gift and kindness that they should be some conditions attached to it. Like a probationary basis to start with so people misbehave in terms of crime or sexual assault can be told to piss off.

Such conditionality already exists.

To me the number of migrants that Germany has accepted and the more to come is a terrible tragedy for Germany, it is if it has been besmirched and will never be the same again.

So basically this is the same racist bullshit you were pulled up on before, just dressed up in different words.

I like the idea of drunken girls enjoying themselves at the beer festivals and whatnot. I don't like the idea that there is a dangerous predatory element making things less fun. I'm open to the possibility that the reported events were not carried out by recent migrants as you say, more data is needed.

You've still said the sum of fuck all about evidence supporting your claim that the "dangerous predatory element" consisted of migrants, and as you claim to be "...open to the possibility that the reported events were not carried out by recent migrants...", you're either being simple-minded or mendacious.[/QUOTE]

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Being on this forum makes me feel that my worries are unfounded and I dig the optimism, but where is it coming from?

Is there also a consensus of optimism about the following?
All being well with global warming.
The kindness and lack of greed of bankers.
That businesses are caring more about the environment.
But the rainforest is going to stop being chopped down.
The businesses are going to stop using sweatshops and child labour.
That we are heading towards a fairer more equal society.

I sense that there is a lack of optimism amongst the majority here about the above issues. So how are people so optimistic about the massive influx of people to Germany from a completely different religion and culture. Many of which come from cultures in which women's rights are not very high on the agenda.

You're comparing apples and oranges. Your first list is basically one about the destructive effects of capitalism and the pursuit of profit. Then you talk about cultures, migration and the mixing of cultures.

 

[ViolentPanda]

So every man is a rapist and a woman should be able to hospitalize or even kill a man with no repercussions?!

It's not about every man being a rapist/sex case. It's about every woman being able to defend herself from those who are, and no-one said anything about "no repercussions". You'd have to prove to the law that your head-cracking was legitimate.

Anyone think that's even more of an overreaction than banning all muslims from a country?

I think your "oh noes,what about the menz?" attitude is an overreaction.

 

[ViolentPanda]

from the Local DE article, but how would she know either way?

Language, probably. If they were talking in German or French (Cologne isn't far from the French border) then they'd be less likely to be migrants.
"Arab" is a bit of a catch-all descriptor, unfortunately.

 

[ViolentPanda]

i was just in vienna actually, and the true nature of this besmirchment hit me as i was walking along the street, trying to sell my pictures

It means nothing to me!

 

[Epona]

It means nothing to me!

I see what you did there

Probably out of tune with the serious nature of the thread, mind.

 

[Brainaddict]

A reminder that focussing on the cultures of migrants may be barking up the wrong tree:

Each year, an average of six to eight incidents of rape on the Oktoberfest grounds are reported to police, according to Kristina Gottlöber, a social worker with the Munich-based Initiative for Munich Girls. The number that goes unreported is believed to be much higher, she said, based on the number of calls received by the counseling center in Munich from women who choose not to report.

Women’s organizations in Munich promote safe Oktoberfest

I got this figure btw from a conversation between Germans of Middle Eastern origin on facebook. They are naturally very concerned about their safety and their relatives safety following the highly misleading police and media reports. They are also concerned about the closing of borders to refugees of course. So while not minimising the suffering of the victims, it's important to remember there may still be further victims of this if people continue to misreport it.

 

[Celyn]

So every man is a rapist and a woman should be able to hospitalize or even kill a man with no repercussions?!
Anyone think that's even more of an overreaction than banning all muslims from a country?

Who has been saying that?

 

[Casually Red]

Not "immediately".
After being kicked in the bollocks by every female employee at the rathaus.

She is a fucking woman

 

[Casually Red]

I guess I shouldn't concern myself with what other people, do think or feel because it's not really any of my business.

What I'm saying is that Germany could have said no to accepting Syrian migrants and found another way to help them nearer their point of origin. I wish that Germany had been more self-interested.

Germany is very forward thinking in terms of the environment, quality-of-life and social mobility. Pretty much every political project in these areas have been wiped off the table to deal with the huge number of migrants.

All those receiving and needing social care, educational assistance etc are going to have resources diverted away for years to come.

And then you have the problem of bad behaviour. Prisons are University of crime and extremism. That leave people even further away from being able to get jobs and being part of mainstream society.

You know it's going to bring out nasty elements from the right wing groups as well as the other side.

I suppose I would really like people to cool down on the do gooding. And put forward thoughtful suggestions.

Granting citizenship is such a great gift and kindness that they should be some conditions attached to it. Like a probationary basis to start with so people misbehave in terms of crime or sexual assault can be told to piss off.

To me the number of migrants that Germany has accepted and the more to come is a terrible tragedy for Germany, it is if it has been besmirched and will never be the same again.

I like the idea of drunken girls enjoying themselves at the beer festivals and whatnot. I don't like the idea that there is a dangerous predatory element making things less fun. I'm open to the possibility that the reported events were not carried out by recent migrants as you say, more data is needed.

It's not just that. The far right can now say with all honesty their entire way of life is being changed for the worse . In fact...fuck the far right. People in general will be saying it . What were previously generally carefree and safe social events now have to be monitored like a military feckin operation . That there are now " codes of conduct "...for the bloody potential victims of a shower of bastards . Safe areas...implying anywhere outside is potentially unsafe . That they all now have to be monitored and supervised just to have a bloody night out . Which Germans bloody hate, they despise CCTV and snooping with a passion and for good reason . The entire environment has changed for the worse, it's affected everyone . There's no denying it .

This is really fucked , the social consequences of this are seriously bad . On a whole range of things .And it needs saying and I don't give a fuck who it offends, open borders with fuck all background checks was a serious mistake . Especially....particularly ... for young men in such absolutely huge numbers . It was fucking madness . And there's no sense worrying that the far right will make headway out of this, the simple fact is they will so people better just get used to that . But probably even worse than that will be the fact that people who despise the far right will start despising migrants as well . There'll be real and genuine hatred over this kind of thing at a purely personal rather than political level . And I find that more worrying than what's gone before .

 

[Pickman's model]

A reminder that focussing on the cultures of migrants may be barking up the wrong tree:

Women’s organizations in Munich promote safe Oktoberfest

I got this figure btw from a conversation between Germans of Middle Eastern origin on facebook. They are naturally very concerned about their safety and their relatives safety following the highly misleading police and media reports. They are also concerned about the closing of borders to refugees of course. So while not minimising the suffering of the victims, it's important to remember there may still be further victims of this if people continue to misreport it.

yes, i think you are right to say that there is sexual violence elsewhere in society. but unless you know differently - and i would be grateful if you could correct me if you do - people do not congregate in groups at the oktoberfest with the professed object of sexually assaulting and robbing women in packs. i do, as i expect we all do, deplore the level of sexual violence in western society. however, the majority of sexual violence within western societies is not at the hands of strangers but at the hands of those we know and all too often at the hands of those we love.

 

[Casually Red]

I sense that there is a lack of optimism amongst the majority here about the above issues. So how are people so optimistic about the massive influx of people to Germany from a completely different religion and culture. Many of which come from cultures in which women's rights are not very high on the agenda.

I think the culture problem at the root of this isn't Islamic or Arab but primarily a criminal , anti social gang type subculture . First and foremost these bastards are thugs and criminals no matter from where they originated . But the almost identical methods of assault witnessed in Tahrir square makes me suspect it's a particular trait of criminal and anti social gangs from the middle eastern neck of the woods . A calling card of sorts . I honestly don't think Islam has anything much to do with it. To me its just a disturbing aspect of a particular criminal subculture they have over there. That's now making waves in mainland Europe thanks to a massive, barely regulated population influx of literally hundreds of thousands of transient able bodied young men nobody has the first fucking clue about . Many of whom will , naturally, be criminals on the hop or generally out for themselves .

I reckon one good way to nip this in the bud is to make involvement in organised crime..ie criminal gangs..a deportable offence. "You're in a pick pocket , mugging or drug dealing gang ??? Right well , that's not just a misdemeanour . That's organised crime . Fuck off . I'm sure president Assad has a nice punishment battalion on the front line meat grinder he could find a spot for you in. "

Fuck em . It's just organised criminality, nothing to do with Islam or ethnicity . Take these gangs apart methodically and the streets will be a lot safer . As will the asylum shelters because you can bet your ass the same things happening there too .

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It's not just that. The far right can now say with all honesty their entire way of life is being changed for the worse . In fact...fuck the far right. People in general will be saying it . What were previously generally carefree and safe social events now have to be monitored like a military feckin operation . That there are now " codes of conduct "...for the bloody potential victims of a shower of bastards . Safe areas...implying anywhere outside is potentially unsafe . That they all now have to be monitored and supervised just to have a bloody night out . Which Germans bloody hate, they despise CCTV and snooping with a passion and for good reason . The entire environment has changed for the worse, it's affected everyone . There's no denying it .

This is really fucked , the social consequences of this are seriously bad . On a whole range of things .And it needs saying and I don't give a fuck who it offends, open borders with fuck all background checks was a serious mistake . Especially....particularly ... for young men in such absolutely huge numbers . It was fucking madness . And there's no sense worrying that the far right will make headway out of this, the simple fact is they will so people better just get used to that . But probably even worse than that will be the fact that people who despise the far right will start despising migrants as well . There'll be real and genuine hatred over this kind of thing at a purely personal rather than political level . And I find that more worrying than what's gone before .

This is a fucked up thing to have happened, but your post here is just knee-jerking. Suddenly these men, whoever they were, however many of them there were, and however long they had been in Europe, are representatives of 'open borders'. And the societal ills that refugees inevitably bring? Open borders where, btw? The idea that it's easy to get into Europe is plain wrong.

The single group that is going to suffer most from the fallout from this is refugees, most of whom will be as horrified by it as anyone else. And that's not to dismiss ideas about cultural differences and the fucked-up misogynist attitudes displayed by various men. But you're doing the same as the r/w here - taking these men as representative of all refugee men (before we've even worked out that they are refugees). If I were a Syrian refugee in Germany, I would be sleeping uneasily in my bed tonight. The eyes would be burning me as I walked down the street.

 

[Pickman's model]

This is a fucked up thing to have happened, but your post here is just knee-jerking. Suddenly these men, whoever they were, however many of them there were, and however long they had been in Europe, are representatives of 'open borders'. And the societal ills that refugees inevitably bring? Open borders where, btw? The idea that it's easy to get into Europe is plain wrong.

The single group that is going to suffer most from the fallout from this is refugees, most of whom will be as horrified by it as anyone else. And that's not to dismiss ideas about cultural differences and the fucked-up misogynist attitudes displayed by various men. But you're doing the same as the r/w here - taking these men as representative of all refugee men (before we've even worked out that they are refugees). If I were a Syrian refugee in Germany, I would be sleeping uneasily in my bed tonight. The eyes would be burning me as I walked down the street.

tbh it doesn't matter if they were refugees or whether they could trace their german ancestry back to 1750. that horse has bolted, lbj.

 

[Casually Red]

This is a fucked up thing to have happened, but your post here is just knee-jerking. Suddenly these men, whoever they were, however many of them there were, and however long they had been in Europe, are representatives of 'open borders'. And the societal ills that refugees inevitably bring? Open borders where, btw? The idea that it's easy to get into Europe is plain wrong.

The single group that is going to suffer most from the fallout from this is refugees, most of whom will be as horrified by it as anyone else. And that's not to dismiss ideas about cultural differences and the fucked-up misogynist attitudes displayed by various men. But you're doing the same as the r/w here - taking these men as representative of all refugee men (before we've even worked out that they are refugees). If I were a Syrian refugee in Germany, I would be sleeping uneasily in my bed tonight. The eyes would be burning me as I walked down the street.

No I'm not, I'm telling you how people are going to react. Do you want me to tell you the average German is going to bake refugees a fucking cake now ? Because they aren't. There'll be unpleasant social consequences as a result of this . Not just because of what's happened but because of the precautions that will now have to be taken to prevent a repetition. For years to come.

Pointing out the absolutely fucking obvious does not make me remotely right wing .

 

[Brainaddict]

tbh it doesn't matter if they were refugees or whether they could trace their german ancestry back to 1750. that horse has bolted, lbj.

I think it does matter, because people are trying to make a political point with very violent implications when they link this incident - without any concrete evidence so far - to refugees.

 

[Brainaddict]

The far right can now say with all honesty their entire way of life is being changed for the worse . In fact...fuck the far right. People in general will be saying it . What were previously generally carefree and safe social events now have to be monitored like a military feckin operation . That there are now " codes of conduct "...for the bloody potential victims of a shower of bastards . Safe areas...implying anywhere outside is potentially unsafe . That they all now have to be monitored and supervised just to have a bloody night out . Which Germans bloody hate, they despise CCTV and snooping with a passion and for good reason . The entire environment has changed for the worse, it's affected everyone . There's no denying it .

But you said 'with all honesty' - why did you say that? This incident has not changed the German way of life - that's rubbish. And this incident may not be related to the current influx of refugees - even though you are clearly implying that it is, without evidence.

'There will be rivers of blood', is how your post read to be honest.

 

[IC3D]

I think if they were Syrian refugees the behaviour would be easier to rationalise. Its not hard to see how coming from a war zone would create some fucked up group behaviour.

 

[Pickman's model]

I think it does matter, because people are trying to make a political point with very violent implications when they link this incident - without any concrete evidence so far - to refugees.

as i pointed out up the thread the link is out there and you can't stuff people's beliefs however erroneous back in the bottle.

 

[Casually Red]

I think if they were Syrian refugees the behaviour would be easier to rationalise. Its not hard to see how coming from a war zone would create some fucked up group behaviour.

No it couldn't . This sounds like a pathetic attempt to find an excuse for these bastards . Any excuse . Because theyre higher up on the wheel of intersectional oppression than their victims .
It's not remotely hard to rationalise a shower of absolute anti social bastards gathering together and engaging in organised criminality because they were all thugs and criminals to begin with .Even if they were migrants as well. They don't all have fucking halos .

 

[bimble]

I think if they were Syrian refugees the behaviour would be easier to rationalise. Its not hard to see how coming from a war zone would create some fucked up group behaviour.

There are many many stories (and those are the ones reported) coming out of refugee camps (eg in Iran, Iraq, Germany) that confirm what you are saying - several NGOs and the UNDP run programs for women and girls trying to help with this. The complete breakdown of social structure, splitting apart of families, trauma etc all play a part no doubt.

 

[elbows]

There'll be unpleasant social consequences as a result of this . Not just because of what's happened but because of the precautions that will now have to be taken to prevent a repetition. For years to come.

There are some fairly low-key policing measures that could be taken that could vastly reduce the risk of something like this happening again, at least on such a scale / in such a prolonged manner.

For this and a few other reasons, I firmly believe that it would be quite possible to have social consequences that are positive in the end, eventually. I'm not predicting thats what will actually happen because there are obviously various negative things that have been set in motion too.

But I even think its possible we could get something positive from the '1000 perpetrators' bullshit and sloppy journalism that I was complaining about yesterday - if a distorted version of this story ends up happening to enable elements of society to talk more openly about, for example, sexual abuse in other contexts, by shocking people, then that is some consolation to weigh against the original distortion.

Some shocking stories from India involving sexual violence were I'm sure met with horror and condemnation, but also anger at the status quo and the hope of some improvement to the situation. I see no reason why the same cannot be the case with this German stuff.

All of this is aside from the other potentially unleashed shit that comes from this case - e.g. attitudes towards immigration, refugees etc. I'm not trying to pretend none of that is happening here. I'm not talking about that at all in this post, just the idea that I don't believe the balance of preventative measures will be negative for society, if done right.

 

[BigMoaner]

I think if they were Syrian refugees the behaviour would be easier to rationalise. Its not hard to see how coming from a war zone would create some fucked up group behaviour.

i think even if england was being napalmed every day for 10 years i don't think i would sexually attack anyone on the strength of it. i find sexual assualts very hard to understand, no matter "how war torn the country is". can you explain why it is easier to understand?

 

[Casually Red]

But you said 'with all honesty' - why did you say that? This incident has not changed the German way of life - that's rubbish. And this incident may not be related to the current influx of refugees - even though you are clearly implying that it is, without evidence.

'There will be rivers of blood', is how your post read to be honest.

Bullshit. The mayor of cologne ..god bless her..has spelled out the precautions that will now be taken for the upcoming carnival . Heavily overtly policed , CCTV everywhere ,undercover police surveillance a safe zone for victims to escape to . And of course a "code of conduct " for female participants . That's a complete change to people's lifestyle in Germany . They never had to do that before . And that's not even taking terrorist threats into consideration. That's just because of mass anti social criminality that didn't exist in this form before . People could attend these events with none of that bullshit.

And the reaction of Germans who endured the likes of the Gestapo and the Stasi to all this surveillance and snooping ...it's not like over here. They absolutely hate it . But that's changed now. If they want a safe night out that's how it is now .

You think that won't lead to resentment ? What planet are you on.

 

[Greebozz]

I think the culture problem at the root of this isn't Islamic or Arab but primarily a criminal , anti social gang type subculture . First and foremost these bastards are thugs and criminals no matter from where they originated . But the almost identical methods of assault witnessed in Tahrir square makes me suspect it's a particular trait of criminal and anti social gangs from the middle eastern neck of the woods . A calling card of sorts . I honestly don't think Islam has anything much to do with it. To me its just a disturbing aspect of a particular criminal subculture they have over there. That's now making waves in mainland Europe thanks to a massive, barely regulated population influx of literally hundreds of thousands of transient able bodied young men nobody has the first fucking clue about . Many of whom will , naturally, be criminals on the hop or generally out for themselves .

I reckon one good way to nip this in the bud is to make involvement in organised crime..ie criminal gangs..a deportable offence. "You're in a pick pocket , mugging or drug dealing gang ??? Right well , that's not just a misdemeanour . That's organised crime . Fuck off . I'm sure president Assad has a nice punishment battalion on the front line meat grinder he could find a spot for you in. "

Fuck em . It's just organised criminality, nothing to do with Islam or ethnicity . Take these gangs apart methodically and the streets will be a lot safer . As will the asylum shelters because you can bet your ass the same things happening there too .

I agree large with what you say. The issue I have is how not to get too wound up about it, fundamentally I'm powerless and it's not even my country. I think a lot of people on this forum put hope in the goodness of humanity, there is much love and kindness in the world. People from Arab countries are generally the most kindest and hospitable you'll ever meet. The question I asked myself is how do I deal with my genuine concerns without letting them overwhelm. I may be wrong about the Islamic element is just that mosques are generally segregated and large groups of males are used to meeting together regularly which I should imagine creates a very powerful bond and a power base. A much more unified community than the usual Western family and a few mates.

 

[Pickman's model]

wonder whether it'll be auf wiedersehen pet for merkel at next elections

 

[Pickman's model]

I agree large with what you say. The issue I have is how not to get too wound up about it, fundamentally I'm powerless and it's not even my country. I think a lot of people on this forum put hope in the goodness of humanity, there is much love and kindness in the world. People from Arab countries are generally the most kindest and hospitable you'll ever meet. The question I asked myself is how do I deal with my genuine concerns without letting them overwhelm. I may be wrong about the Islamic element is just that mosques are generally segregated and large groups of males are used to meeting together regularly which I should imagine creates a very powerful bond and a power base. A much more unified community than the usual Western family and a few mates.

keep digging