Hundreds of women assaulted in German NYE celebrations

[frogwoman]

Listen and believe women ... except if they're telling you something you don't want to hear.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Forgive me but I sense you're a goodhearted person, who is defending the idea of migrants being blamed unfairly, that is a noble endeavour to defend a group that doesn't have much of a voice. I would really like to persuade you to the idea of being far tougher and more aware of danger.

I'm not defending anything.
So far we have zero proof of anything except that some of the assaulters were swarthy-looking. That doesn't make the assaulters "migrants". They could, for example, be German citizens of other extractions - maybe some of the millions of people of south European or Turkish or Balkan heritage.
Ever spent any time in Germany? in most cities you'll see "swarthy-looking" people whose nearest connection to migrants is that 3 or 4 generations ago their antecedents settled in Germany as gastarbeiters.

As for "being far tougher", and "more aware of danger", what do you propose?

 

[ViolentPanda]

is this right, or is this guy a fantasist?

calling Idris2002 .

Apols, I see that you already got there!

 

[ViolentPanda]

Really?

Of course.
Phil knows these things. He spends...weeks in the UK every couple of years!

 

[ViolentPanda]

that mayor who said women need a code of conduct should resign immediately.

Not "immediately".
After being kicked in the bollocks by every female employee at the rathaus.

 

[Celyn]

Of course.
Phil knows these things. He spends...weeks in the UK every couple of years!

Ah. Proper good expert, then.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Ah. Proper good expert, then.

The best!

 

[bimble]

Meanwhile, on the outer reaches of my Facebook contacts ('friends' is an infantile description) someone who identifies as a liberal is saying Norway, culture clash, told you so.

The article that's based on - http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/20/w...-migrants-a-lesson-in-how-to-treat-women.html is interesting. I don't think the whole idea necessarily deserves to be mocked and dismissed as 'racism' anyway.
“The biggest danger for everyone is silence,” said Per Isdal, a clinical psychologist in Stavanger who works with the foundation, which developed the program Mr. Kelifa attended in Sandes."

 

[frogwoman]

lots of people need this though ... not just migrants.

 

[bimble]

lots of people need this though ... not just migrants.

True. But does that mean it would be better if such programs didn't exist at all? I don't know.

 

[frogwoman]

and it's increasingly not just men who need it tbh (although it is mostly men)

 

[Fingers]

and it's increasingly not just men who need it tbh (although it is mostly men)

Indeed

 

[bimble]

The program that article is about (in Norway) is completely voluntary anyway, it's just made available -if you're interested you attend if not not.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The article that's based on - http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/20/w...-migrants-a-lesson-in-how-to-treat-women.html is interesting. I don't think the whole idea necessarily deserves to be mocked and dismissed as 'racism' anyway.

Maybe not, but also beware of lazy journalism. It appears they spoke to, or chose to report the words of, precisely one man attending these courses - the wonderful Mr Kelifa, who says "Men have weaknesses and when they see someone smiling it is difficult to control". This man comes across to me as particularly full of shit, yet his words are presented as representative of refugees attending the course.

 

[Brainaddict]

A victim account here, mentioning about 30 men: An 18-year-old victim of the mass sexual assault in Germany speaks about her ordeal
It is a bit of a nightmare scenario, and astonishing that so many women were assaulted by such a large group (s) without the police being able to intervene in a way that actually stopped it happening.
The article still unhelpfully repeats that police are looking for 1000 men, even though police have now specifically denied that.

If we're going to go down the route of state intervention, perhaps everyone could get much better classes in consent and so on at school, with new migrants getting the same classes. Given how shocking the attitudes of some European men are, it does seem wrong to target migrants specifically, however sexist the cultures they come from.

 

[bimble]

Maybe not, but also beware of lazy journalism. It appears they spoke to, or chose to report the words of, precisely one man attending these courses - the wonderful Mr Kelifa, who says "Men have weaknesses and when they see someone smiling it is difficult to control". This man comes across to me as particularly full of shit, yet his words are presented as representative of refugees attending the course.

Seeing as it's voluntary to attend, maybe the only people who go are those who feel 'confused' as the article puts it, around issues of consent. Which might when expressed come across as 'full of shit'? I don't know.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Seeing as it's voluntary to attend, maybe the only people who go are those who feel 'confused' as the article puts it, around issues of consent. Which might when expressed come across as 'full of shit'? I don't know.

Any man saying 'men can't control themselves' is full of shit. Doesn't matter where he's from.

If anything the article, by using this man and this man only as the example of a refugee, is only reinforcing the idea that immigrants are not to be trusted. He as good as says so himself.

 

[bimble]

Yep. Very difficult thing. Complete silence might be preferable on the whole subject, certainly more comfortable.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Complete silence might be preferable on the whole subject, certainly more comfortable.

Really?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yep. Very difficult thing. Complete silence might be preferable on the whole subject, certainly more comfortable.

No. But beware laziness and also agendas. Giving one man with ignorant and worrying views space to express his ignorance unchallenged, and then presenting him as representative of a whole class of people, is less than helpful, and may well represent a dodgy agenda. If instead, they had sat down and interviewed, say, half a dozen male refugees from the Horn of Africa, I would wager that the result would have been rather different - not six men expressing the same thing, but six men talking through their various experiences and problems with six different points of view, arguing with and challenging one another. But that doesn't make for a simple linear narrative.

 

[Pickman's model]

that mayor who said women need a code of conduct should resign immediately.

perhaps some sort of 'yellow card' indicating when women may use lethal force might have been better than a shitty code of conduct Mr.Bishie ViolentPanda

 

[ViolentPanda]

perhaps some sort of 'yellow card' indicating when women may use lethal force might have been better than a shitty code of conduct Mr.Bishie ViolentPanda

Well, it "kind of" worked for the British army...

 

[Sprocket.]

Well, it "kind of" worked for the British army...

So did Bromide! (allegedly)

 

[Pickman's model]

Well, it "kind of" worked for the British army...

the case remains: rules of engagement better than some 'keep them at arms' length' nonsense.

 

[ViolentPanda]

the case remains: rules of engagement better than some 'keep them at arms' length' nonsense.

Absolutely. The whole idea that it's acceptable to put the onus on women to make sure they're not assaulted is spurious sexist crap - the onus should be on men to keep their paws to themselves, with very clear consequences if they don't.

I'm thinking: Issue every woman with an ASP, and permission to you use it. Okay, so we'd see a rise in blunt force trauma injuries in hospitals, but it'd make life a whole lot more civilised!

 

[LDC]

Maybe upon reaching the age of 12 (?) every man should get a 2 day class on consent and issues around that.

And every women gets a 2 day gun handling course and a free pistol that only works with a ring they wear (the tech does exist).

Be interested to see how rape, sexual assaults, and domestic violence rates change....

 

[ViolentPanda]

Maybe upon reaching the age of 12 (?) every man should get a 2 day class on consent and issues around that.

I'd go much further than that, and have consent as a core subject in "civics" classes for every child. That way, you let the males know what is acceptable behaviour by them, and let the females know what is acceptable behaviour toward them.

And every women gets a 2 day gun handling course and a free pistol that only works with a ring they wear (the tech does exist).

Be interested to see how rape, sexual assaults, and domestic violence rates change....

It would be interesting.

 

[irf520]

So every man is a rapist and a woman should be able to hospitalize or even kill a man with no repercussions?!
Anyone think that's even more of an overreaction than banning all muslims from a country?

 

[Pickman's model]

So every man is a rapist and a woman should be able to hospitalize or even kill a man with no repercussions?!
Anyone think that's even more of an overreaction than banning all muslims from a country?

everyone's a winner, baby

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

So every man is a rapist and a woman should be able to hospitalize or even kill a man with no repercussions?!
Anyone think that's even more of an overreaction than banning all muslims from a country?

I'm not sure it was an entirely serious suggestion.