Hundreds of women assaulted in German NYE celebrations

[phildwyer]

Train stations are often pretty sketchy places but I've noticed that a lot of German ones do seem to be pretty bad.

The Zoo Station in Berlin seemed aptly named in the '80s.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Perhaps you might stop pretending to be billy big balls for once and wind your neck in.

I bet that you are never and never have been anywhere near as brave at anytime as when in front of your keyboard.

What are you willing to bet? How about your bike if I can provide you with testimony about P's M being brave - i.e. speaking out and physically-defending others - in the face of the police?

If you're going to accuse people of being "Billy Big Balls" (prefect at your school, was he?), it's best not to play the role yourself, wouldn't you think?

 

[phildwyer]

Sigh - yes, I went to uni too and appreciate the academic debate surrounding 'race'...but to simply disregard this as a philosophical construct with no real world consequences, regardless of how misconstrued, abhorrent or irrelevant is not terribly helpful to the vast majority of people who still feel this to be an essential aspect of their identification - a bit like religion, which also gets a mystifyingly free pass.

But far from dismissing them, I'm drawing attention to the real world consequences of "race." By showing how they include the public and media responses to the Cologne incident.

 

[bimble]

The Bild is (i think) the German equivalent to the Sun or Mirror.
Their website doesn't hold back at all on stressing in bold capital letters that the 'sex mobs' were 'of north african and arab appearance' , and that they all spoke foreign.
Unfassbare Silvester-Bilanz aus Köln, Hamburg und Stuttgart: Hunderte Täter, 118 Anzeigen, 0 Verdächtige
It says there were hundreds of attackers, 108 reported attacks and 0 suspects, and says that it wasn't just Cologne, also other major cities (though not comparable numbers)

 

[ViolentPanda]

The Zoo Station in Berlin seemed aptly named in the '80s.

And into the '90s.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

And into the '90s.

It was very handy if you wanted to buy a pill which had once spent five minutes sat in a room near some real ecstasy.

 

[Pickman's model]

It's "frankly bizarre" that, for example, some/many observant male Muslims might have a moral inhibition toward assaulting a woman?
What planet are you on?

sadly he's on planet hackney

 

[Pickman's model]

What are you willing to bet? How about your bike

let me stop you there - make sure you don't get the insurance company's bike

if I can provide you with testimony about P's M being brave - i.e. speaking out and physically-defending others - in the face of the police?

If you're going to accuse people of being "Billy Big Balls" (prefect at your school, was he?), it's best not to play the role yourself, wouldn't you think?

the only balls he has are the balls he speaks

 

[campanula]

The Zoo Station in Berlin seemed aptly named in the '80s.

liminal spaces etc etc.

 

[treelover]

It is being discussed on German media that the abuses also happened at railway stations in many other cities in the country, if this is the case, it may have been orchestated on social media, etc and if so would make the situation a lot more volatile than it even is now..

 

[bimble]

It is being discussed on German media that the abuses also happened at railway stations in many other cities in the country, if this is the case, it may have been orchestated on social media, etc and if so would make the situation a lot more volatile than it even is now..

Agree. It's very scary. Is being reported by some of the more right wing press there as a nationwide crisis of rampant sex-mobs with accusations that the police & media have been wilfully turning a blind eye .

 

[campanula]

Yep, it is a gift for just about anyone with an agenda to validate. Not normally given to complex conspiracy theories but this apparently orchestrated attack does seem to have some worrying possibilities for manipulation by any number of axe grinders.

 

[Pickman's model]

Yep, it is a gift for just about anyone with an agenda to validate. Not normally given to complex conspiracy theories but this apparently orchestrated attack does seem to have some worrying possibilities for manipulation by any number of axe grinders.

xmas come early...

 

[elbows]

It may be true they created an intimidatory atmosphere, but you are reading way too much into the fireworks. Firing fireworks at each other is how many Europeans celebrate NYE (certainly in Germany and the Netherlands), and I think a lot of those fireworks in the vids are just men in different parts of the square firing at each other. It looks very dangerous to Brits because we've been trained to put fireworks in the ground and retreat to 50m, but is fairly normal there - watch this 2012 video from Berlin:

Yeah I couldn't read much at all into those firework videos because of this phenomenon - I remember going to Amsterdam for new years eve once and cultural differences surrounding firework safety were on full and vivid display.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Yep, it is a gift for just about anyone with an agenda to validate. Not normally given to complex conspiracy theories but this apparently orchestrated attack does seem to have some worrying possibilities for manipulation by any number of axe grinders.

It's not like Germany (well, the former West Germany, anyway) didn't go through this whole "all brown-skinned and Med-looking people are sex fiends" schtick back in the '60s and '70s. I'd say that people should know better, but given the unremitting shite that immigrants have had heaped on them by some parts of the German media (I'm looking at you, Springer!) since the refugee crisis really kicked in last year/Frau Merkel uttered her hostage-to-fortune about Germany taking a million, I won't be surprised if some of the shit sticks.

 

[pocketscience]

I find this really quite astonishing. After Paris Police everywhere were supposed to be on high alert, Germany has had international Football matches cancelled and just down the road in Brussels they even cancelled their NYE celebrations because of the threat of terrorism. Yet at an obvious target, like crowds gathering for NYE, what appears to be mass robbery and sexual violence has occurred and the Police have not only failed to prevent it they appear to have made no arrests and haven't a clue what went on.

Am I missing something here or does anyone else find the apparent ineptitude of the Police quite staggering?

Sorry I've virtually repeated wht you've written here. I should have read the thread before posting

Yes the ineptitude is staggering. The way they cancelled the germany holland game made me raise an eyebrow, now this. The lack of control makes them look way out of their depth.

 

[Joe Reilly]

My point was that racial terms and categories are applied almost exclusively to "minorities." "Whiteness" is the absence of race, as it is the absence of color.

I noted that, when "minorities" commit crimes, their "race" is deemed a relevant and indeed determining factor. In contrast, when "white" people commit crimes, their "race" is not deemed a relevant, far less a determining factor.

That is why "minorities" are generally identified by race in media reports of crime, while "white" people are not. The implicit assumption is that their race caused them to commit the crime. We are currently witnessing a textbook example in the Western public's response to the Cologne incident.

We see an analogous phenomenon when anti-semites identify Jews in positions of wealth or influence while ignoring the religion of similarly-placed Christians.

As far as I am aware anti-racism is designed to eradicate prejudice not erase identity. In this case erasing the identity of attackers by the likes of state broadcaster ZDF (who admitted struggling how to address the incidents for days precisely for this reason) has now lead directly to the allegation of 'cover up'.
While one situation, even if accurately reported, may indeed reinforce any pre-existing bias, the other scenario leads to cynicism - a stepping stone to creating prejudice. Which in the longer run is the greater gift to the far-right?

 

[elbows]

Saddened but not surprised that even publications which consider themselves to be all responsible and socially liberal didn't have half as much interest in correcting the '1000 perpetrators' rubbish as they did using it in headlines originally.

For example it seems there was a police spokesman correction on the subject yesterday:

Albers specifically countered reports that the group of sex attackers had been 1,000 strong.

"There were not 1,000 perpetrators," he said, but rather a gathering of people among whom were the perpetrators – although he could not say on Tuesday how many people were responsible.

Cologne police have 'no leads' on sex attacks

Police initially identified the suspects as up to 1,000 men "of Middle Eastern origin," but Cologne Police Chief Wolfgang Albers later admitted that he misspoke. "We have no information on the perpetrators," he said Tuesday at a news conference, adding "there is not 1,000 perpetrators."

German police investigate New Year's Eve sexual assaults

But as of 4 hours ago we still have to read this kind of shit in the independent:

Police have not yet made any arrests after 90 criminal complaints were filed in the city of Cologne, including one allegation of rape. It is believed that around 1,000 men, who split into gangs, were involved in the attacks at the city’s train station.

Officials warn against linking police search for 1,000 men after mass sexual assault to refugees

The scale of the attacks, number of victims etc is shocking enough, and the very least people deserve is a proper understanding of the situation. A failure to properly correct what the 1000+ number actually referred to is playing into hands of other agendas that dont have the prevention of violence and sexual assault at their heart.

 

[Patteran]

OK. Clearly there is a need for clarification. What Phil was objecting to was the description of the alleged perpetrators by the alleged victims as 'Arab or North Africans'. The underlying motive for doing so, was designed to serve a "racist" agenda was his argument. But if the attackers appearance was surplus to the story, then to be consistent the victims shouldn't have been identified as women either was the point I was trying to make. And if memory serves it was he who introduced the question of 'race', which is why I responded in kind.

I was attempting to aid communication, not running interference. I agree with both of you - I think. Race is a reactionary concept - but ignoring the background of the attackers would be proper wrong-headed. Denying the relevance of their background is potentially as dangerous as over-stating its relevance. The Left can't abandon this discussion to the Right. The mayor's response is shocking.

In 2008, Rangers fans caused havoc in Manchester. Not acknowledging the fact that they were Rangers fans would be ridiculous - nonsensical, or dishonest. But neither would it be an explanation.

 

[hot air baboon]

It's not like Germany (well, the former West Germany, anyway) didn't go through this whole "all brown-skinned and Med-looking people are sex fiends" schtick back in the '60s and '70s.

...sorry but stuff like this is more than a "schtick"....its a serious problem....


Immigrants behind all reported assault rapes in Oslo
The last three years, police said.

Wednesday 15 April 2009, kl.20: 07

All 41 Reviewed assault rapes in Oslo over the past three years, according to police perpetrated by non-Western immigrants.

- Predators are relatively young men who come from other countries. They are often asylum seekers and often come from traumatized countries or countries with a completely different view of women than we have in Norway, says Hanne Kristin Rohde of the Oslo Police violence and sexual section NRK.

She says the perpetrators are either traumatized or mentally injured, or that they come from a country where violence against women is common.

- We see that several of them have a view of women that suggests that they at any time can take control of other persons, then mostly women, says Rohde.

Aggravated assault
There are men with Kurdish or African background who dominate the statistics.

None of reviews involving ethnic Norwegian perpetrators.

It characterizes assault rapes, threats or use of serious violence.

Politicians are afraid

Head of Resource Centre for immigrant and refugee women, Fakhra Salimi, kicking the ball through to the politicians.

She believes prevention work among men with minority backgrounds are completely absent, and says politicians are afraid to address the issue.


http://www.dagbladet.no/2009/04/15/nyheter/voldtekt/innenriks/5759702/

 

[treelover]

Yeah I couldn't read much at all into those firework videos because of this phenomenon - I remember going to Amsterdam for new years eve once and cultural differences surrounding firework safety were on full and vivid display.

Er, its the attacks, abuses, possible rapes(some women may not have come forward yet) that matters.

 

[ViolentPanda]

...sorry but stuff like this is more than a "schtick"....its a serious problem....


Immigrants behind all reported assault rapes in Oslo
The last three years, police said.

Wednesday 15 April 2009, kl.20: 07

All 41 Reviewed assault rapes in Oslo over the past three years, according to police perpetrated by non-Western immigrants.

- Predators are relatively young men who come from other countries. They are often asylum seekers and often come from traumatized countries or countries with a completely different view of women than we have in Norway, says Hanne Kristin Rohde of the Oslo Police violence and sexual section NRK.

She says the perpetrators are either traumatized or mentally injured, or that they come from a country where violence against women is common.

- We see that several of them have a view of women that suggests that they at any time can take control of other persons, then mostly women, says Rohde.

Aggravated assault
There are men with Kurdish or African background who dominate the statistics.

None of reviews involving ethnic Norwegian perpetrators.

It characterizes assault rapes, threats or use of serious violence.

Politicians are afraid

Head of Resource Centre for immigrant and refugee women, Fakhra Salimi, kicking the ball through to the politicians.

She believes prevention work among men with minority backgrounds are completely absent, and says politicians are afraid to address the issue.


http://www.dagbladet.no/2009/04/15/nyheter/voldtekt/innenriks/5759702/

Because obviously a schtick is never serious, always comedic.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Er, its the attacks, abuses, possible rapes(some women may not have come forward yet) that matters.

What motivated and facilitated the attacks also matters.

 

[Greebozz]

I do honour very highly the kindness and goodheartedness of people wanting to help and support migrants. But in terms of the Arthurian model of chivalry, as well as kindness and charity, there is also the role of protecting others.

Can we please have wisdom mixed in with the compassion. It's not the fault of any migrant if they are not familiar with Western European culture or unused to the freedom and availability of alcohol. But the alleged behaviour described in the media is not acceptable.

Rather than just the usual dingdong debate there needs to be some solutions found. Probably along the lines of citizenship classes which they are to be fair trying to do.

In the UK we have a very multicultural population but it's largely integrated, everyone understands how it all ticks along. To me it's a very frightening situation they have in Germany, not one I envy at all. I work with the homeless and have met many wonderful people but when someone is too far outside the social structure, the trouble and expense they cause is enormous, it's not their fault.

The awful fact is it's likely that the migration situation in Europe is going to be rather like the abortion debate, in which is terribly emotional and strident that the child's life is saved but once they've been born they can go to hell and fend for themselves. The kindness of offering asylum or citizenship is a huge big deal but then what?

What one doesn't want is a situation were something akin to favelas develop within Germany harbouring resentment and anger of people not educated enough or have enough grasp of the language to be part of German employment and culture. And then you have a situation where people aren't safe and there is a subculture of crime and extremism.

The reason all this worries me so much is because of the uncertainty of the situation. I feel deeply for Germany, they've got a mountain ahead of them. But who knows, good may come of all this.

 

[bimble]

there needs to be some solutions found. Probably along the lines of citizenship classes

Try one these Life in the UK Test » Free Online Practice Questions » Test 1 » www.theuktest.com
(I failed about half the time & I was born here )

 

[alfajobrob]

Try one these Life in the UK Test » Free Online Practice Questions » Test 1 » www.theuktest.com
(I failed about half the time & I was born here )

Yeah - good thread to laugh in.

The post above yours defies my comprehension however.

Citizenship classes and all the rest should happen with peaceful migrants and refugees - not the perps in the video's above who robbed, groped and assaulted women. No excuse for that.

 

[andysays]

Yeah - good thread too laugh in.

The post above yours defies my comprehension however.

Citizenship classes and all the rest should happen with peaceful migrants and refugees - not the perps in the video's above who robbed, groped and assaulted women. No excuse for that.

And of course, there is as yet no real evidence that those who robbed, groped and assaulted women were migrants and refugees, but that doesn't stop people posting gibberish which appears to take it as a given that they were (defies my comprehension too, both what he means and why he thinks it's helpful to say it...)

 

[alfajobrob]

And of course, there is as yet no real evidence that those who robbed, groped and assaulted women were migrants and refugees, but that doesn't stop people posting gibberish which appears to take it as a given that they were (defies my comprehension too, both what he means and why he thinks it's helpful to say it...)

Fair play although I was replying to the post above mine which used the term migrant.

I didn't mean to suggest it was refugees or anything. I would say the facts will out - but they rarely do.

 

[Anudder Oik]

Something similar has happened before.

If I remember right, I think it was 2002 when hundreds of french algerians descended on Barcelona for NYE. I was on my way with friends to a party in a flat near Plaza Real. We witnessed about 10 robberies in as many minutes and foiled one. The guys we saw off went 100 metres, turned a corner, and immediately set upon another group of people, while not 20 metres further down in the middle of the ramblas we saw another woman being dragged along the ground while she clung to her bag, there were more screams coming from further up. It was distrubing to say the least.

From the balcony of the party we watched robbery after robbery after robbery, one every 3 minutes. It was going on all night and there were no police. A female flat mate was robbed at gun point at the main square gathering and a waitress I know was mugged twice trying to get home. She managed to get to a police car and tell them but they just sat there and shrugged it off. Another waitress I knew at the time who spoke french had a group of algerians in her bar and listened to them discussing their tactics for the night. There were maybe a few hundred in all roaming the city. They had come from France as organized gangs to rob. At the hospital del mar hundreds of tourists were treated for cuts after being assaulted. It was a night of pure chaos, with I reckon, thousands of incidents, None of it was reported in any of the press. I swore never to go to BCN on NYE ever again.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I do honour very highly the kindness and goodheartedness of people wanting to help and support migrants. But in terms of the Arthurian model of chivalry, as well as kindness and charity, there is also the role of protecting others.

Can we please have wisdom mixed in with the compassion. It's not the fault of any migrant if they are not familiar with Western European culture or unused to the freedom and availability of alcohol. But the alleged behaviour described in the media is not acceptable.

Rather than just the usual dingdong debate there needs to be some solutions found. Probably along the lines of citizenship classes which they are to be fair trying to do.

In the UK we have a very multicultural population but it's largely integrated, everyone understands how it all ticks along. To me it's a very frightening situation they have in Germany, not one I envy at all. I work with the homeless and have met many wonderful people but when someone is too far outside the social structure, the trouble and expense they cause is enormous, it's not their fault.

The awful fact is it's likely that the migration situation in Europe is going to be rather like the abortion debate, in which is terribly emotional and strident that the child's life is saved but once they've been born they can go to hell and fend for themselves. The kindness of offering asylum or citizenship is a huge big deal but then what?

What one doesn't want is a situation were something akin to favelas develop within Germany harbouring resentment and anger of people not educated enough or have enough grasp of the language to be part of German employment and culture. And then you have a situation where people aren't safe and there is a subculture of crime and extremism.

The reason all this worries me so much is because of the uncertainty of the situation. I feel deeply for Germany, they've got a mountain ahead of them. But who knows, good may come of all this.

Interesting that you jump straight into believing that this is a problem that's entirely born of the migrant communities in Germany.