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How would you like to see school education changed?

Im talking about schools as compulosry institutions. I keep being told one can do home schooling. In which case ditch all the legislation around sanctioning parents. Parents still get fined.

There is difference between Institutionalisation of school/ education and places provided to learn at. Places which are entirely voluntary for children to attend.

So in my largely working class area- adventure playground, Youth Centre and a place to learn should all be provided free. The difference Im saying is that the place to learn at ( the school) should be voluntary to attend. Like the adventure playground and Youth centre. My local adventure playround has no problems with attendence. The youth centre is basicallly closed due to cuts. A lot of learning could take place outside the institutionalised school system. Its all been cut. Adventure playground in my area is only getting by on charity funding which is not gaurenteed.

I agree its when secondary school starts that young people get alienated from education. Been enough posts here and on the re opening schools thread about that.

Start could be made by actually letting young people do what they want. If ( this was example from re opening schools thread) a young person wants to strip down an engine and rebuild it let them do that. Provide facilties to enable this.

No timetables, no exams. If you don't want to do a subject you arent compelled to do it.

A comparison could be adult education. Another thing lifelong learning needs to be brought in. Each locality have a place of learning which encompasses youth and older people.

Only education I liked was Adult Education- to expensive now. I choose a class. If liked it continuued with it. If not did something different. Completely different atmosphere to school. Not compulsory.

Parents do not get fined for homeschooling. They get fined - theoretically - for just taking their kids out of school and not providing anything like schooling.

Parents can homeschool. There are huge homeschooling networks in the UK - it's not illegal not to send your kids to school. There's oversight to make sure the kids aren't just being kept at home for the reasons Spanglechick outlined.

No timetables is just not practical. You can't even do something like stripping down a car engine (not a very useful skill these days, btw) without timetabling it, unless it's just word of mouth.
 
A couple of people have suggested this but that it should wait til secondary or they are 13 or 14, why? The only reasonable reason I can think is safety but with controlled risks and at a suitable level why not younger?

For my part because I'm advocating starting basic comprehensive education at 7, and the vocational education and training I'm talking about is job related. I don't think we need to start forcing employment ideas down kids throats any earlier than 14, we stopped kids going out to work at that age a long time ago. Some form of life skills would be taught within the comprehensive education then starting to specialise more with the idea of trades etc at 14. I also wouldn't make this set in stone, in that once you set out on that path, you're not committed for life. As I've already said, education should be framed as lifelong learning, so within that would be the opportunity to change paths and re-enter any different form of education you may have missed at any stage in your life.

Education needs to be flexible.
 
Homeschooling is something we looked at and it is a bit of a shit show. We were thinking of maybe homeschooling our daughter until 6 or 7 but have decided against it because it didn't seem the right fit for her. From what we have seen checks are minimal. At least some of the local home school groups are just about pissing around on the beach and with serious anti-vax infections. Nothing wrong with pissing around on the beach in itself but just piss around on the beach don't pretend it is something else. A lot of people are being forced into homeschooling due to inadequacies in schools. Children with learning difficulties who are not being catered for in mainstream schools and are being forced out.
 
All the people I have met that do homeschooling are dodgy hippies or weird religious types - sometimes both. IMO schooling should be compulsory barring some kind of medical exemption. All this in conjunction with the changes to education that people are talking about here.

I'd also make some kind of combat sport compulsory too, something like wrestling, boxing, or judo.
 
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Parents do not get fined for homeschooling. They get fined - theoretically - for just taking their kids out of school and not providing anything like schooling.

Parents can homeschool. There are huge homeschooling networks in the UK - it's not illegal not to send your kids to school. There's oversight to make sure the kids aren't just being kept at home for the reasons Spanglechick outlined.

No timetables is just not practical. You can't even do something like stripping down a car engine (not a very useful skill these days, btw) without timetabling it, unless it's just word of mouth.

So the answer to my question that all legislation about fines and sanctions being ditched is no.
 
As I posted on the re opening schools thread it was the "hippies" who started to adventure playgrounds in London in 60s/ 70s. The idea of play as being important was radical idea then.

Anarchists like Colin Ward also were arguing for importance of play.
 
I think you want a totally optional education system, right?
But how do you ensure children can access it?

Read my post 116.

Proper funding of Adventure Playgrounds, Youth centres, place to learn for young people and adults. Free to use.
 
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Read my post 116.

Proper funding of Adventure Playgrounds, Youth centres, place to learn for young people and adults. Free to use.
Yes, but how do you make sure children can access it? Or do they only get an education once they are capable of choosing to get one, getting themselves there etc. For some children they might need to leave home and be earning money before they can access educational settings.
 
Yes, but how do you make sure children can access it? Or do they only get an education once they are capable of choosing to get one, getting themselves there etc. For some children they might need to leave home and be earning money before they can access educational settings.

Making it free.
 
Making it free.
But what about parents who don’t want their child educated? What if they believe girls shouldn’t get an education, what if they need the child at home as a carer or emotional support for them, or to work? What if they’re just too chaotic or drug addled to get their child to an optional education setting, even a free one?
 
Sending children to school should be a social and ethical obligation.

I can understand why, given the state of some schools - and the education system more generally - some parents might want to opt out.

...but, sadly, the kids who I've taught after extended periods of homeschooling haven't come out of it we'll (that's just my experience, not making a universal claim here).

But

If we can make the sort of social and pedagogical changes we're talking about here....

...kids will want to go to school and parents will want to send them.
 
I havent time today to read much but look like Anarchists like Colin Ward and other educationalists were advocating some of the ideas Im suggesting here.

Colin Ward quotes Michael Young and Harvey Ree from 1972

"We are going to see the end of schools in your lifetime. Instead there will be a community centre with the doors open twelve hours a day, every day of the week, where anybody can wander in and out of the library , workshops, sports centre...."

From Talking schools:

Talking schools - Colin Ward

Young was involved in influential book "Knowledge and Control". Which I didnt know about. Now repudiates those ideas.

The book raised questions rarely asked before about the basics of formal education: the curriculum, examinations, subjects, definitions of intelligence, the teacher’s authority. School knowledge, Young suggested, could be seen as a ruling-class construction designed to ensure working-class children failed and meekly took their places on factory assembly lines.

 
That isn’t really answering our questions. You’ve proposed the suggestion, so how do you think you would resolve the issues some of us have raised? If you don’t know then fair enough.
 
Sending children to school should be a social and ethical obligation.

I can understand why, given the state of some schools - and the education system more generally - some parents might want to opt out.

...but, sadly, the kids who I've taught after extended periods of homeschooling haven't come out of it we'll (that's just my experience, not making a universal claim here).

But

If we can make the sort of social and pedagogical changes we're talking about here....

...kids will want to go to school and parents will want to send them.
Spot on
Schools done right would be and are the best places to learn, there's nothing wrong with formal education if done to meet the needs of children.

Letting them wander in and out of a youthy if they feel like it would be an absolute disaster for kids who hate or love school alike
 
Aren't there different things going on here? How might schools, education, and learning differ in utopia/after the revolution/whatever, and how might we make some reforms given the realities of how society is now? And for sure maybe some of the former might be able to be brought into the later, but some won't.
 
Aren't there different things going on here? How might schools, education, and learning differ in utopia/after the revolution/whatever, and how might we make some reforms given the realities of how society is now? And for sure maybe some of the former might be able to be brought into the later, but some won't.

Yep.

But, imho, we need the ideal as a starting point. Then work towards that.

Not starting with what they might let us have.
 
Really uncomfortable with the idea of education being some opt-in choice. Even today, where it is fundamentally an obligation, I see the terrible results where I work with kids whose parents have abused any notion of it being compulsory. As young children do not have sufficient werewithal to make that choice themselves I guarantee you there are many circumstances and many parents who would use it as another form of abuse if did not feel compelled to put their children through education. I work with one particular child who is 15 and did not go to any school until she was 14. The results aren't pretty.

Besides that, poor people were kept out of education for thousands of years until barely 100 years ago. Knowledge was for wealthy people. Any idea that may encourage a return to that, however well-meant, is flawed. We've only just relatively got to a point where kids from non-wealthy backgrounds are able to get a free education. I don't see any reason to go backwards from this.
 
Yeah, the primary school I went to had been opposed, a century before, by a local group of councillors and businessmen who literally said education was a bad idea for the lower orders as it gave them ideas above their allotted station
 
If a child doesn’t want to do English because they find it hard, how would you ensure they do at least do enough so they can adequately read, write and analyse written information? I have worked with many who can’t read and write because they found it hard and nobody was there to help push and cajole them into learning it and they find navigating life incredibly tough. Without question they have all said to me they wish someone had cared enough to make them do what they didn’t necessarily like because ultimately it was good for them. Children should far, far more agency in their lives but they don’t always know what’s best for them because they’re children and they need our guidance and support.

And what about those who won’t educate their girls? I appreciate there is that issue with schools anyway because of the private school system but for example within the ultra orthodox Jewish community girls are not allowed to learn the same as the boys and are given very few opportunities and shown an incredibly narrow concept of what women can and cannot do. I think you’d have to resolve these issues first before you can have a totally voluntary system.

The example you give of girls in Ultra Orthodox community - how is that dealt with now?

Even under present State system the influence of the family within a religious community like this is going to affect girls outcomes.

And I think it would be necessary to ban religious schools completely in that case.

In Plymouth I went to school with some Plymouth Brethren. They outwardly conformed sent children to my Primary school but at home kept to themselves.

Which is what a lot of relgious families do.

I would like children have the right to go to school despite parents wishes. If that is what they want. And be supported to do so.

Im talking more about secondary school. Its that where the real problems start. Not early /primary schools where basics can be taught.

As more than one poster here as pointed out its the negative experience of secondary school that is the major problem.
 
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The problem with making education optional is the school is one place where children who are being abused get picked up. Without that who is going to notice?

About 20% of referrals.
 
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Ive been busy this evening. I did read Colin Ward - two chapters from Anarchy In Action. One on schools and one on play ( adventure playgrounds- as Im involved in one).

Its called Anarchy in Action as its about practical things that are Anarchist influenced.

The short chapter on education is summary of anarchist position on education and short history of this country education system ( to 1973 when he wrote it). As he points out in his intro to new edition he was a teacher who found himself at odds with most education.

Start with Play. Something he wrote a lot about. Learning through self directed play. He discusses the Adventure playgrounds. Children were given tools and materials and left to own devices to build what they wanted. He compares that to the muncipal ready made swings and roundabouts. Which didnt interest children that much ( to add see this with our Grove Adventure Playground- much better used than boring swings in nearby open space). The example of adventure playground is that children after days of chaos learn to work together.

So he depends on view of human nature that if people live in freedom they will after a while cooperate with each to achieve good things for all. Its a very optimistic view. Given right circumstances young people will learn and want to learn without compulsion.

( can't do this on Adventure playgrounds now. Health and Safety nightmare. I have a bit of an issue with this)

I went to school in 60s and 70s - Ward saying Play is important for learning was radical then. Play as opposed too Work is theme of his.

On school- State schools. He has several criticisms. They weren't for the benefit of the people. State Education came about due to concerns , for example , of Britains industrial competition with other states. Producing loyal citizens. The state system ( in 70s) did not help solve inequality. More funding went to Grammer school children or University students than secondary Modern students. He calls education state funding a regressive tax on the poor. Third reason is what school students think themselves. A significant number can't wait to leave. The state system is inflexible. Any experiment in different kind of education does not get funded. Why controversially he opposed getting rid of private schools. As the few experiments in education took place in private sector.

He points out he is not against schools. He is against the school system that developed in this country from 1870s onwards.

His hopes for the future ( in 70s). One is that school kids will refuse to go. Bring the system to a halt. He also saw educationalists like Ivan Illich and Freire get taken seriously.(not read them Partner says Pedagogy of the Opppressed is important to read) He thought that experiments like the Scotland Road Free School ( and others like it) could have got more funding to experiment with as an alternative. Found this on the short lived Free Schools Run by parents, teachers and students. ( yes Hippies again. :D )The article follows up on some of the students now adults. Mixed views. A lot of them liked it. some feel they missed out on exams as they weren't forced to do them. A lot liked that cane ( which I remember was still around in 60s and 70s) wasn't used. Some said they learnt to get on with people.

Schools without walls is scheme he was involved in. Moving school out into local community. Based in building but "lessons" in the community.

So alternatives can be tried within the present system.

What Colin Ward didnt see was New Labour and Tories use of Academies and Free Schools. In a right wing way. Removing in theory central or Council control over education that had been built up post war as part of Welfare state. ( Something else he is not keen on)

Reminds me of reading Mike Davis "Planet of Slums". Running through it is criticism of the same kind of Anarchist inspired anti State self help. Written some time after the 70s it criticises the idea of self help in the slums that was advocated at the time by more libertarian architects. Rather than more ( Left) State action to build mass affordable housing. The Anarchist inspired self help led to petty bourgeousie landlordism. Slipped into helping the right.

Criticism of Colin Ward is that his criticism of state system was taken up by the Right. But used to undermine education.

So Id say what Colin Ward would say on children going to school being non compulsory. If schools were places where parents, students and teachers had a say they would want to go. People learn best when its more like self directed play. Students should be able to choose what they do based on what they want. Schools should be integrated into local community so learning can take place outside the school.

So a lot of what other posters here would probably agree with except for making it completely voluntary.
 
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The problem with school being voluntary is that you need some way of ensuring children aren’t missing out because their parents’ choices are in conflict with the child’s right to an education. Reasons might include:

  • parent doesn’t value academic pathways
  • cultural belief that girls shouldn’t be educated to same level as boys
  • child is being abused at home
  • child required to work in family business
  • child required to care for younger siblings
  • child required to care for adults with particular needs

We have to protect the right of the child to start adulthood having had a fair stab at an education.

I think nagapie has posted about how is integrated society possible if school is voluntary to go with this list.

Had a chat with partner about abolishing schools. As she is training to be a teacher ( Montessori )She agree with most of above. Education of girls , right of child to education, integration.
 
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