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How would you like to see school education changed?

Really uncomfortable with the idea of education being some opt-in choice. Even today, where it is fundamentally an obligation, I see the terrible results where I work with kids whose parents have abused any notion of it being compulsory. As young children do not have sufficient werewithal to make that choice themselves I guarantee you there are many circumstances and many parents who would use it as another form of abuse if did not feel compelled to put their children through education. I work with one particular child who is 15 and did not go to any school until she was 14. The results aren't pretty.

Besides that, poor people were kept out of education for thousands of years until barely 100 years ago. Knowledge was for wealthy people. Any idea that may encourage a return to that, however well-meant, is flawed. We've only just relatively got to a point where kids from non-wealthy backgrounds are able to get a free education. I don't see any reason to go backwards from this.

Been thinking on some of the issues people have posted.

My post on abolishing schools was a provocation. Im not an Anarchist .However the more I look at Anarchist contribution to education theory and practise the more Im impressed. Spain had long tradition of alternative Anarchist education.People now forgotten like Franscisco Ferrer.

The people sticking their necks out and trying to develop education for the people were like Ferrer- who was executed in the end. Shot by firing squad for be a progressive educationalist. Its forgotten that people like him struggled for progressive libertarian education. In a time when Church and reactionary state held sway. These are unsung forgotten heroes of education.

As I got my education in 60s and 70s before advent of Comprehensives I can say majority of my teachers would now be seen an bullies. I was talking to my brother recently. He said look in hindsight these teachers were failures. In everday adult life they wouldn't last. So became teachers as in that environment they were in power over people with little power - children. That is way to deal with the past. He is right. I think the teaching profession needs to look at the dark side of its history as institution.

I am putting "utopian" view. It does have concrete basis. The argument might be has it relevance now

Yes knowledge was for wealthy people. Listened to fascinating programme today about the classics. ( and chilango brought this up on the re opening schools thread. )

"Classics" was brought in as way of educating to show one didn't have to "work". It was a sign of joining the elite.. As learning Greek or Latin was economically useless activity ( UK 17th and 18th C). Later exams were brought in for the civil service for the Empire. Unfortunately lower orders started "cramming" schools to get through these exams. So exams were brought in as filtering exercise. Lower orders were not meant to pass them.

Greek/ Latin education was a sign of being part of ruling elite.

Unfortunately the Greeks and Roman discussed things like democracy, republicism. When translations came in people like Tom Paine and the early workers education libraries used these elite texts to criticise the society they lived in. The working class setting up own education.

What I got from the programme that education is not a monolith or conveyor belt one goes through.

Its contested. Colin Ward and the early Anarchist / the early Labour movement come from the tradition.

So the answer is if ordinary working people could have more control over education - democratic control - then ( and I think Colin Ward would say this) they could deal with social problems in there own localties. Without the State.
 
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I have no real idea about schools - it's been ages since I had any involvement in them. It is a contested terrain. And, as it stands, deeply exclusive. Regarding education generally, I would like that it never ends. Lifelong learning, free, transparent and utterly open. That is, anyone can offer teaching and anyone can accept, at all stages of life. Not some hierarchical, top-down, managed, restricted, supervised, examined with narrow curriculums and qualifications set by exam boards. Should be as essential, as fundamental as food and shelter, run by all of us, for joy.

I now know myself to be a deeply engaged gardener, having had a 25year apprenticeship at the hands of many, many others...and honestly, nothing gives me greater joy than to share things I have learned. It is a privilege, with a circularity, sharing and committment which enriches us all. Yep, I realise this is kinda idealistic...but I also worked in a self-organised, egalitarian, often flawed collective where, quite literally, anyone could offer a 'course' of anything at all...and anyone could pay £1 and attend. It was chaotic, inspiring and life-affirming...and I learned to play a didgeridoo (as well as some vaguely useful stuff I have largely forgotten...such as tech skills).
 
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Im talking about schools as compulosry institutions. I keep being told one can do home schooling. In which case ditch all the legislation around sanctioning parents. Parents still get fined.

There is difference between Institutionalisation of school/ education and places provided to learn at. Places which are entirely voluntary for children to attend.

So in my largely working class area- adventure playground, Youth Centre and a place to learn should all be provided free. The difference Im saying is that the place to learn at ( the school) should be voluntary to attend. Like the adventure playground and Youth centre. My local adventure playround has no problems with attendence. The youth centre is basicallly closed due to cuts. A lot of learning could take place outside the institutionalised school system. Its all been cut. Adventure playground in my area is only getting by on charity funding which is not gaurenteed.

I agree its when secondary school starts that young people get alienated from education. Been enough posts here and on the re opening schools thread about that.

Start could be made by actually letting young people do what they want. If ( this was example from re opening schools thread) a young person wants to strip down an engine and rebuild it let them do that. Provide facilties to enable this.

No timetables, no exams. If you don't want to do a subject you arent compelled to do it.

A comparison could be adult education. Another thing lifelong learning needs to be brought in. Each locality have a place of learning which encompasses youth and older people.

Only education I liked was Adult Education- to expensive now. I choose a class. If liked it continuued with it. If not did something different. Completely different atmosphere to school. Not compulsory.
We homeschooled (or more accurately unschooled) all three of our children at various stages. The eldest 2 we took out of formal education for 3 years before we moved to Spain and they returned to the school system in the local village state school where they learned to speak Spanish. Our youngest was 90% homeschooled until the age of 16 when he went to college to do a level 2 course. He does not have any GCSE's however he did complete 3 Level 3 courses at college, started working in an IT job at 19 that university students would aspire to after graduation, except he's starting without being umpteen thousands in debt.

Before taking our children out of school we did do our homework so that when the time came we knew what was possible and how to go about it. We were members of Education Otherwise for about a year prior to homeschooling, which had plenty of good resources and information. I also attended a really good home education conference organised by EO at Friends House in Euston with a brilliant keynote from John Taylor Gatto author of the book Dumbing Us Down - The Hidden Curriculum of Compulsory Schooling.

I'm not sure how easy it would be for us to do the same thing in todays world. At that time our local authority could tell that we had looked into the legalities etc and once we had written our formal letter informing them that we were going to educate our children outside the school system, they never bothered us after that and we weren't subject to any scrutiny or fines. I know that some other local authorities were a lot more hands on and some made it virtually impossible to homeschool.

I agree with many of Sir Ken Robinson's observations in his popular TED talk...

 
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I agree with many of Sir Ken Robinson's observations in his popular TED talk...



The book I'm currently reading refers to this talk. The author makes the point that creativity is not an alternative to knowledge, but a product of it. And also that learning stuff you're not interested in when you're a teenager allows you to do stuff you are interested in as an adult.
 
The book I'm currently reading refers to this talk. The author makes the point that creativity is not an alternative to knowledge, but a product of it.
I'm not sure that he ever said that creativity was an alternative to knowledge or that he ever implied that they were mutually exclusive. It's been a while since I watched it so perhaps he did say/imply that and I missed it.

And also that learning stuff you're not interested in when you're a teenager allows you to do stuff you are interested in as an adult.
Not sure I agree with that. Children are natural learners anyway so when given the "right conditions" they will most likely thrive. Maintaining that ability to carry on learning through teenage and into adult years will mean that they can do anything that interests them at any age. Life long learning ftw.
 
We homeschooled (or more accurately unschooled) all three of our children at various stages. The eldest 2 we took out of formal education for 3 years before we moved to Spain and they returned to the school system in the local village state school where they learned to speak Spanish. Our youngest was 90% homeschooled until the age of 16 when he went to college to do a level 2 course. He does not have any GCSE's however he did complete 3 Level 3 courses at college, started working in an IT job at 19 that university students would aspire to after graduation, except he's starting without being umpteen thousands in debt.

Before taking our children out of school we did do our homework so that when the time came we knew what was possible and how to go about it. We were members of Education Otherwise for about a year prior to homeschooling, which had plenty of good resources and information. I also attended a really good home education conference organised by EO at Friends House in Euston with a brilliant keynote from John Taylor Gatto author of the book Dumbing Us Down - The Hidden Curriculum of Compulsory Schooling.

I'm not sure how easy it would be for us to do the same thing in todays world. At that time our local authority could tell that we had looked into the legalities etc and once we had written our formal letter informing them that we were going to educate our children outside the school system, they never bothered us after that and we weren't subject to any scrutiny or fines. I know that some other local authorities were a lot more hands on and some made it virtually impossible to homeschool.

I agree with many of Sir Ken Robinson's observations in his popular TED talk...


The book I'm currently reading refers to this talk. The author makes the point that creativity is not an alternative to knowledge, but a product of it. And also that learning stuff you're not interested in when you're a teenager allows you to do stuff you are interested in as an adult.

I've only just found out Ken Robinson died on August 21st after a short battle with cancer. He was 70.

That one TED talk has had a massive effect on a lot of educationalists. A fitting tribute to him would be for us to try our best to make his ideas into reality for the students we encounter.

RIP.

 
I would like to see the demise of schools as they are now.
I dont actually believe the socialisation model that seems to be so present in discussions about reopening of schools. "The children need to meet their friends".
Considering nearly half of the children are bullied at school by other kids in school, that should be a strong indication of how schools fail at socialising kids.
I always thought that if I had had a family, I would have educated them at home. Plenty hands on learning. Loads of science and maths and the arts. I definitely would not want my kids going through the shite I went through in school. Not one adult intervened to help. They turned blind eyes to bullying. And sure they say now that they deal with it but it's not dealt with in a way that makes the victim feel ok. Nothing returns to the way it was before. For some godawf reason teenagers can be vicious. They grow out of that and then they forget how nasty they were.

I am all in favour of online learning and home schools.
I am in favour of aptitude tests for uni courses. Yep.
Blow every last school building to smithereens. They have brought nothing but pain to the majority of kids who had to attend them.
 
I would like to see the demise of schools as they are now.
I dont actually believe the socialisation model that seems to be so present in discussions about reopening of schools. "The children need to meet their friends".
Considering nearly half of the children are bullied at school by other kids in school, that should be a strong indication of how schools fail at socialising kids.
I always thought that if I had had a family, I would have educated them at home. Plenty hands on learning. Loads of science and maths and the arts. I definitely would not want my kids going through the shite I went through in school. Not one adult intervened to help. They turned blind eyes to bullying. And sure they say now that they deal with it but it's not dealt with in a way that makes the victim feel ok. Nothing returns to the way it was before. For some godawf reason teenagers can be vicious. They grow out of that and then they forget how nasty they were.

I am all in favour of online learning and home schools.
I am in favour of aptitude tests for uni courses. Yep.
Blow every last school building to smithereens. They have brought nothing but pain to the majority of kids who had to attend them.

I would really like to agree with that, but what about the kids whose parents would - for whatever reason - not be in a position to do that?
 
I would really like to agree with that, but what about the kids whose parents would - for whatever reason - not be in a position to do that?

I would absolutely like to see society change and the world of "work" transform completely. I dont see the difficulty in children learning at a home hub with facilitators feeding into a home system remotely. I dont see people "going to work" in the future. I think many jobs we now do will not be done by humans. And we will be living very differently to now. I think everything will change.
 
How can you regulate or enforce the way families raise their children beyond the most basic “keep them safe from significant harm”? As a society we even struggle to do that.
 
And many families are forced into home schooling because schools are not flexible enough because too busy indoctrinating in anti social and anti human nonsense, including the state funded religious variety.
 
I remember feeling very put out when they took nearly all the toys away when I got to being five.
So more toys.

Dunno if this is a frivolous point but I very much agree anyway. The difference in engagement when you give secondary-age kids physical stuff to engage with as against just words and pictures and paper is extraordinary.

Lots of schoolkids have fidget toys and so on, recognising the need for sensory stimuli and a way to burn off physical energy, but they're only needed because the vast majority of the curriculum is based on, 'shut up and copy down the answers'.
 
Allowing parents to homeschool with lax or non-existent regulations and enforcement sounds to me like a great way to get problems with sovereign citizens/conspiracy nuts and religious psychos attempting to indoctrinate their kids with all sorts of anti-social and anti-human nonsense.

Plenty of anti-human nonsense in schools. Human factors, up to and including basic needs like eating and drinking or going to the toilet, are suppressed. In a standard secondary school there's a 30 minute lunch break, and the kids spend 20 minutes queuing up to get food which they then shovel down their necks and still don't have time to go for a piss afterwards. Adults aren't treated much better. On top of having to work through breaks because there aren't enough hours in a day to get everything done, most teachers are expected to do 'duty' which means spending an entire lunch break each week standing in a corridor making sure the kids don't go in the toilet that's out of bounds for some stupid fucking reason. Which means you can't eat lunch or go to the toilet yourself. If you leave your post to do a bodily function a deputy head with nothing better to do will come and shout at you. There are many reports of teachers developing urinary infections because they don't get the chance to take a piss once in an eight hour day.

What was my point? Oh yeah, 'mainstream' schools have been taken over by a weird cult. All the sane and reasonable teachers in the land can't push back against it. At least some nutter doing home schooling is only fucking up one kid at a time, and most of them probably allow their kids to at least go to the fucking toilet.
 
Plenty of anti-human nonsense in schools. Human factors, up to and including basic needs like eating and drinking or going to the toilet, are suppressed. In a standard secondary school there's a 30 minute lunch break, and the kids spend 20 minutes queuing up to get food which they then shovel down their necks and still don't have time to go for a piss afterwards. Adults aren't treated much better. On top of having to work through breaks because there aren't enough hours in a day to get everything done, most teachers are expected to do 'duty' which means spending an entire lunch break each week standing in a corridor making sure the kids don't go in the toilet that's out of bounds for some stupid fucking reason. Which means you can't eat lunch or go to the toilet yourself. If you leave your post to do a bodily function a deputy head with nothing better to do will come and shout at you. There are many reports of teachers developing urinary infections because they don't get the chance to take a piss once in an eight hour day.

What was my point? Oh yeah, 'mainstream' schools have been taken over by a weird cult. All the sane and reasonable teachers in the land can't push back against it. At least some nutter doing home schooling is only fucking up one kid at a time, and most of them probably allow their kids to at least go to the fucking toilet.

I mean, two things can both be problematic at the same time. I remember there being stupid rules that made no sense when I was at school, but nothing on the magnitude of what you're describing. I definitely remember being allowed to go to the toilet at school! If I went over time, I just turned up late to whatever was next. What happens if you were to just ignore the deputy head? Can they really fire you for going to the toilet? Have you ever tried asking these kind of people what they expect you to do? Wet yourself? Injure yourself trying to hold it in?

How much do the parents know about this kind of stuff? If I had a child who was being treated like that, while having their teachers distracted by being unable to fulfil their basic bodily functions, I would be furious and making a nuisance of myself at the school, even if that meant taking a holiday in order to do it.
 
Teach kids basic medicine. Basic Life Support and use of an AED. How the major organs work and what damages them. Health promotion. Basic public health.

We don't do first aid but in science we do teach kids how their organs work alongside public health stuff that is also dealt with in PSHE. The content is a bit outdated in places (eg protein only comes from meat) but the intention is there. For older kids these kinds of lessons are more discussion-based and there's less shut-up-and-write-the-answers-down than you get elsewhere in secondary school. This is important because some things the kids will already know and some things they'll have no clue about, and you can't just guess which is which. Talking about contraception with one class (year 11s) I had to explain that a vasectomy did not involve removing the testes altogether :facepalm:
 
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I mean, two things can both be problematic at the same time. I remember there being stupid rules that made no sense when I was at school, but nothing on the magnitude of what you're describing. I definitely remember being allowed to go to the toilet at school! If I went over time, I just turned up late to whatever was next. What happens if you were to just ignore the deputy head? Can they really fire you for going to the toilet? Have you ever tried asking these kind of people what they expect you to do? Wet yourself? Injure yourself trying to hold it in?

How much do the parents know about this kind of stuff? If I had a child who was being treated like that, while having their teachers distracted by being unable to fulfil their basic bodily functions, I would be furious and making a nuisance of myself at the school, even if that meant taking a holiday in order to do it.


I know a teacher who's head teacher followed them into the toilet and banged on the stall door telling them to come out to a meeting.

Some heads are total pricks.
 
Teach kids basic medicine. Basic Life Support and use of an AED. How the major organs work and what damages them. Health promotion. Basic public health.
They do some of that stuff in PSHE but rarely will the teacher be an expert in the field so it's just people reading PowerPoints at kids most of the time.
 
School I used to work at had a real hateful bully as deputy head. 22 teachers left at the end of the summer term and, going by job vacancies popping up, more have left since. I bet nobody has fired the manifestly incompetent management though.
 
I know a teacher who's head teacher followed them into the toilet and banged on the stall door telling them to come out to a meeting.

Some heads are total pricks.
My head of department went in the stall next to me while I was having a shit and while doing the same himself had an in depth conversation about whether I was staying on the next year or not. I think I'd rather just be shouted at.
 
My head of department went in the stall next to me while I was having a shit and while doing the same himself had an in depth conversation about whether I was staying on the next year or not. I think I'd rather just be shouted at.


Oh dear God that's gross.





How did you respond?



Please say, "with a fart"
😁
 
I mean, two things can both be problematic at the same time. I remember there being stupid rules that made no sense when I was at school, but nothing on the magnitude of what you're describing. I definitely remember being allowed to go to the toilet at school! If I went over time, I just turned up late to whatever was next. What happens if you were to just ignore the deputy head? Can they really fire you for going to the toilet? Have you ever tried asking these kind of people what they expect you to do? Wet yourself? Injure yourself trying to hold it in?

How much do the parents know about this kind of stuff? If I had a child who was being treated like that, while having their teachers distracted by being unable to fulfil their basic bodily functions, I would be furious and making a nuisance of myself at the school, even if that meant taking a holiday in order to do it.
Not really sure what you expect a parent to do :confused:
I should go down to the school and shout at the headteacher that my kid only gets a 30 minute lunchbreak?

In terms of home vs school education, the legal situation is that the "parent of every child of compulsory school age shall cause him to receive efficient full-time education suitable, to his age, ability and aptitude, and to any special educational needs he may have, either by regular attendance at school or otherwise."
If we start being very prescriptive about how parents choose to do this outside school, we need to recognise that lots of children are not receiving suitable full-time education at school either.
If a parent fails to prove they are offering a suitable education at home then they can be forced to send their child to school. If the state fails to provide a suitable education then the parent still has to pick up the pieces.
 
The short breaks currently favoured everywhere are disgusting. It was an hour when I was at school (in fact I believe it was 70 minutes for my last two years at school). I don't know what the fuck a kid's meant to do with thirty minutes. A lot of places seem to have worked out that because they get the kids through the canteen quicker in COVID bubbles if they stagger the breaks they can make more time for classes.

My daughter at primary now gets a strict fifteen minutes to eat her packed lunch and then fifteen minutes in the playground. Particularly at primary I think it's a bit arrogant to presume kids are learning more in the classroom than they are in the playground.
 
Dunno if this is a frivolous point but I very much agree anyway. The difference in engagement when you give secondary-age kids physical stuff to engage with as against just words and pictures and paper is extraordinary.

Lots of schoolkids have fidget toys and so on, recognising the need for sensory stimuli and a way to burn off physical energy, but they're only needed because the vast majority of the curriculum is based on, 'shut up and copy down the answers'.
My eldest, year 8, and his best friend told me yesterday they hate all subjects except PE. They are both extremely academic, not very sporty and didn't much like PE at primary. Even the secondary PE teachers aren't a deterrent. I think that example well illustrates your point.
 
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