temper_tantrum
The beauty of the ride
Yup. The response is vile.
Hillsborough Independent Panel findings and release of documents.
- Thread starter Fedayn
- Start date
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
Patnick's must be the most pathetic apology yet, not even half-hearted, and with the vile 'but it was all so long ago' addendum. He can't, unsurprisingly, bring himself to say that he was also told - by coppers - that the tales of bad behaviour were bollocks. Utter scumbag.
Fedayn
Well-Known Member
A perfect example how the smear machine employed by SYP has worked and seeped into every part of society. Even those with views we think line up with our own have absorbed the shite spewed by Patnick and Co. Thus showing perfectly not just how well it worked but of course why they used and told the lies they did.... And so well was the myth propounded that even after the exposure of 2 decades of lies and smears there are still people who have the 'ah but' response....
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Next up is allegations of phone tapping, PC hacking and other stuff. I wrote on here of the way 'certain people' from 'certain institutions' and bodies interfered in the professional and academic career of Sheila Coleman before, and those of us who been involved with her know there's been a whole lot more just waiting to come out. Looks like now may be the time judging by a few things going around.
Favelado
J'adore South Shore
The 1981 Hillsborough crush which very nearly lead a disaster happening sooner than it dead. The only difference being that the pen doors got opened earlier that day.
People are clearly asphyxiated and in real trouble toward the end of the clip.
http://www.ohwhenthespurs.co.uk/#/hillsborough-1981/4535126148
People are clearly asphyxiated and in real trouble toward the end of the clip.
http://www.ohwhenthespurs.co.uk/#/hillsborough-1981/4535126148
big eejit
She looks like Alan Gilzean
Very poignant letter in today's Guardian:
On 15 April 1989, at 8.30 in the morning, Barrie left his home to travel to a football match. In the early hours of the following morning, a different man returned home. Barrie's friends, who had been seated elsewhere in the ground, had found him wandering the streets of Sheffield after an increasingly despairing search that lasted long into the night. Traumatised, his body covered in purple bruises that bled into each other, his arms torn from dragging adults and children from the terrible crush and passing them up to others hanging, arms stretched, to lift them to safety, Barrie came home but left part of his soul in the Hillsborough stadium.
In the 23 years that followed, time after time castigated as a cause of the tragedy; carrying the guilt of survival; knowing, as did everyone in Liverpool, "the truth" but condemned as self-pitying and told to "get over it" when any attempt to disseminate the truth was made; and taking every opportunity to show his solidarity with the families of the 96 in their search for justice.
Finally, vindication (Hillsborough: the reckoning, 13 September) but too late for many relatives and friends of those who were lost and survivors themselves. Too late also for Barrie, who died at 8.10 on Wednesday morning.
Pat Ayers
Liverpool
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/sep/13/hillsborough-time-for-justice
On 15 April 1989, at 8.30 in the morning, Barrie left his home to travel to a football match. In the early hours of the following morning, a different man returned home. Barrie's friends, who had been seated elsewhere in the ground, had found him wandering the streets of Sheffield after an increasingly despairing search that lasted long into the night. Traumatised, his body covered in purple bruises that bled into each other, his arms torn from dragging adults and children from the terrible crush and passing them up to others hanging, arms stretched, to lift them to safety, Barrie came home but left part of his soul in the Hillsborough stadium.
In the 23 years that followed, time after time castigated as a cause of the tragedy; carrying the guilt of survival; knowing, as did everyone in Liverpool, "the truth" but condemned as self-pitying and told to "get over it" when any attempt to disseminate the truth was made; and taking every opportunity to show his solidarity with the families of the 96 in their search for justice.
Finally, vindication (Hillsborough: the reckoning, 13 September) but too late for many relatives and friends of those who were lost and survivors themselves. Too late also for Barrie, who died at 8.10 on Wednesday morning.
Pat Ayers
Liverpool
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/sep/13/hillsborough-time-for-justice
Gary Gillespie on 5 live just now: you can forgive a mistake, you can't forgive the cover ups. that can never be forgiven.
fair play also to Scott Mills who played You'll Never Walk Alone on Radio 1 on the afternoon of the release of the report.
it will be interesting to see how Sunderland fans respond tomorrow, when Liverpool play them at the Stadium of Light.
fair play also to Scott Mills who played You'll Never Walk Alone on Radio 1 on the afternoon of the release of the report.
it will be interesting to see how Sunderland fans respond tomorrow, when Liverpool play them at the Stadium of Light.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Here are some sections from Phil Scratons's Book No Last Rights: The Denial of Justice and the Promotion of Myth in the Aftermath of the Hillsborough Disaster from the chapter covering how the newspapers and wider media (across the board, not just the SUN) helped eastblish the false state/SYP/SYAS/others false narrative. (The book is available as docs here). Remember when you see this respectable papers uncritically quoting coppers and so on that it's supposed to be their job (in their own self-mythology at least) to question authority, not parrot it. This is one tiny set of examples only concerned with one tiny section of the Inquest. There are hundreds more examples in the full chapter.
denniseagle
ding dong the witch is dead
Just wondering.............. it has been a campaign that has lasted for 23 years ......................was there no one who 'thought they knew the truth' who even stopped for one second and thought hang on let me look at it again, let me just think, why are there so many who campaign ,AND ,why do they continue YEAR UPON YEAR UPON YEAR? Was there not one 'journalist' and I use the term extremely loosely where certain rags are concerned, who thought lets just verify what we have been told via an independent source?
Investigative journalism seems to have completely ignored the possibility that those who fought for JUSTICE and the TRUTH really had justification behind their campaign.
Was it the fact that everyone who KNEW about what really happened just didn't care?
Investigative journalism seems to have completely ignored the possibility that those who fought for JUSTICE and the TRUTH really had justification behind their campaign.
Was it the fact that everyone who KNEW about what really happened just didn't care?
Iguana
Well-Known Member
There were plenty of journalists who were making it clear that a cover-up had happened. Almost every article I ever read on the subject, along with any documentary/docu-drama made it obvious what had really happened. Obviously they didn't know the indepth stuff like exactly how many people could have been saved after 3.15pm or about the fact that the tested dead children for blood alcohol levels but the fact that the police ballsed up and disgracefully tried to cover their tracks and blame the victims and survivors was never in doubt. I was in complete shock this week to discover that anyone at all genuinely believed otherwise.
So now we have a recipe book for a cover-up.
- Get an MP to repeat the lie of your choice.
- Get the Press Association wire to report (accurately) the news that "MP X says Y happened".
- Hacks rewrite the wire story, with the qualification near the bottom.
- The headline is "Y happened!" - an MP said it, it's on the wire, how much checking can it need?
- The following day, one or more of the wordier papers runs a complicated little story asking "did Y really happen?"
- If you the liar are unlucky, they follow it up with lots of complicated stories - and years later there's an inquiry. The story has meantime changed from the lie to the inquiry.
- But most people - those that support the lie and those like denniseagle who denounce it - never read or remember more than the original headline.
denniseagle
ding dong the witch is dead
What I am really asking is, those journalists who knew what really happened, and those who suspected that the official story was incorrect did not seem to show much fervour in finding out more.....WHY?
Not one tabloid or broadsheet stood apart when the lies started they ALL toed the line
WHY??
Not one tabloid or broadsheet stood apart when the lies started they ALL toed the line
WHY??
I think that one of the big good things that came out of Hillsborough was a good understanding of the dangers of crowds etc. People are rarely crushed to death at large events, security tends to be quite good and I think that's very lucky.
I think to understand the reporting of Hillsborough you probably have to put it in the context of police and maybe society generally relating to football. Even today there seems to be a police frustration with having to police big matches, is it Leeds where they have been asking the clubs to pay the cost of policing? Whether that was a particular problem in Liverpool is another question.
I think to understand the reporting of Hillsborough you probably have to put it in the context of police and maybe society generally relating to football. Even today there seems to be a police frustration with having to police big matches, is it Leeds where they have been asking the clubs to pay the cost of policing? Whether that was a particular problem in Liverpool is another question.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Because although there are some maverick journos, a lot of them write to a POV, usually the editor's idea of "the average readers' " POV, but sometimes that of the owner. They call it "the house style", but it's usually just "toeing the line" put out by those in power.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Independent has a story of a whistle-blower who was ignored and effectively silenced tomorrow.
I've described how they were led to do that on the day. THEN some start questioning.
Do these links from searching the Guardian for hillsborough disaster work? (Seems the archive only goes back to 1998?)
ericjarvis
give a feck for the feckless
It goes further than that. Editors will almost inevitably ditch anything that stands out as different from the normal "news agenda". For example a BBC journo friend reported on an anti poll tax demo at the London borough town hall 100 metres from his home. His report mentioned the high spirited singing crowd and the complete absence of any violence. His editor had it revoiced by a journalist who came from deepest Hertfordshire, and what was broadcast was a report of a violent demonstration with clashes with the police. Using the same pictures.
At the time, any report on mistakes or cover ups by SYP would have been spiked, because the news agenda only featured drunken violent football fans. News in the UK ceased to be anything to do with reality three decades ago.
Libertad
Sparking up a rollie in the Reichstag
I haven't seen this reported anywhere else:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-years-ago-8140104.html?origin=internalSearch
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-years-ago-8140104.html?origin=internalSearch
denniseagle
ding dong the witch is dead
I know most journalists write what the editor/owner will publish but the complete lack of questioning concerning the tragedy in the first few weeks obviously laid the foundations for the decades of lies to be accepted as fact.
Where were/are the true seekers of the truth in journalism?
Where were/are the true seekers of the truth in journalism?
Complete?
Just spent 10 minutes looking for early examples, on the lines of the Glasgow Herald... not so easy that far back, need a Lexis subscription.
Then - 'ang on! There was extensive and immediate coverage of the Sun boycott, which involved rebuttal of the Sun's lies. Gleeful rebuttal, from the other papers.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
There's a couple of very important points to bear in mind when looking at the role that individual journalists played or failed to play in the immediate aftermath, then the inquests then the long years afterwards.
Firstly, a lot of the reporting was by news reporters who were a) not part of football culture and didn't understand the way fans were treated, the way we were herded like cattle etc and b) used to talking to the police and using them as their primary source - questioning and criticising them is the fast path to getting yourself cut off from those sources.
Secondly, the football reporters at that time were on the whole, private school and university educated outsiders to football culture as well - they wrote about the supporters with barely concealed contempt ( a contempt that i imagine took was directed at the whole class those supporters mainly came from) and thought the conditions that the fans had to put up with was tough shit, their own fault - this was always particularly evident in the reporting on england away games. Since then there is a whole new generation of football writers who grew up with and came out of that football culture that the previous generation of football writers despised - they understand what happened and why (i'm talking about people like Tony Evans here).
Why would people like this dig any deeper? Why would people like this take the victims and their families questions and experiences seriously?
Firstly, a lot of the reporting was by news reporters who were a) not part of football culture and didn't understand the way fans were treated, the way we were herded like cattle etc and b) used to talking to the police and using them as their primary source - questioning and criticising them is the fast path to getting yourself cut off from those sources.
Secondly, the football reporters at that time were on the whole, private school and university educated outsiders to football culture as well - they wrote about the supporters with barely concealed contempt ( a contempt that i imagine took was directed at the whole class those supporters mainly came from) and thought the conditions that the fans had to put up with was tough shit, their own fault - this was always particularly evident in the reporting on england away games. Since then there is a whole new generation of football writers who grew up with and came out of that football culture that the previous generation of football writers despised - they understand what happened and why (i'm talking about people like Tony Evans here).
Why would people like this dig any deeper? Why would people like this take the victims and their families questions and experiences seriously?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Bettison. Miles more left to go on this and others.
Did Sir Norman Bettison try to smear Hillsborough inquest judge?
Did Sir Norman Bettison try to smear Hillsborough inquest judge?
Ash Mahay
Member
Evidence please?
Voley
🐀
Families seek new inquest verdicts
No surprises here particularly as Trevor Hicks is being necessarily cagey about what action they may be taking but there'll be pressure for new inquests and criminal prosecutions.
I'm still only cautiously optimistic, I must admit, but I'd like to think that there's a real momentum building here.
No surprises here particularly as Trevor Hicks is being necessarily cagey about what action they may be taking but there'll be pressure for new inquests and criminal prosecutions.
I'm still only cautiously optimistic, I must admit, but I'd like to think that there's a real momentum building here.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
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