Griffin and BNP strategy

[nino_savatte]

The Daily Telegraph did not conduct the poll.



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/04/30/nblairdec30.xml

No matter, polls are what they are: they are commissioned and constructed with the intention of achieving a particular outcome; that is to say, they are not ideologically neutral.

 

[dash_two]

Me: You're wrong.

Nino: No matter.

Blissful stuff. Nino, things might look all rosy from inside Mung Bean Wholefoods ("a workers co-op") or the Aquarius Housing Association or whatever other modern-day equivalent of the Society for Distressed Gentlefolk you benefit from. But trust me, most people don't want high levels of immigration.

Here's another hopelessly biased and distorted poll on the subject, carried out by Ipsos MORI for the Sunday Times in August 2006:

Public wants much harsher immigration policy, says poll

The research reveals that opinion on immigration is hardening dramatically, with three-quarters of the population calling for far stricter limits on immigrant numbers.

Almost half the population has serious doubts that allowing foreigners to settle in Britain is good for the country.

In a striking finding, women of all ages appear to be particularly hostile to the number of foreigners settling in the UK — with many deeply sceptical that it is benefiting Britain.

While homeowners and those living in the south of England are most likely to be open-minded about the issue, there is strong opposition among working-class people, particularly those living in the north of England and the Midlands.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article614362.ece

 

[nino_savatte]

Me: You're wrong.

Nino: No matter.

Blissful stuff. Nino, things might look all rosy from inside Mung Bean Wholefoods ("a workers co-op") or the Aquarius Housing Association or whatever other modern-day equivalent of the Society for Distressed Gentlefolk you benefit from. But trust me, most people don't want high levels of immigration.

Here's another hopelessly biased and distorted poll on the subject, carried out by Ipsos MORI for the Sunday Times in August 2006:



http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article614362.ece

That's a nice clown costume you're wearing. Do you ever post anything that doesn't contain insults?

Funny how none of you ever comment on the 500 Britons who leave this country every day. For you lot, it's all one way traffic and as far as debate is concerned, there is none: you've seen to that.

Over to you, shit-for-brains.

 

[nino_savatte]

So, dash, what seems to be your problem? You can't conduct yourself in a civil fashion, nor do you seem able to comprehend the fact that you are pandering to the BNP with your bizarre ideas of ending immigration. If my hand hurts, do I cut off my arm to relieve the pain? This appears to be your solution: "the BNP are against immigration, so let's end it, once and for all".

By saying "It isn't racist to be concerned about immigration" you hijack the discourse and shut down any opposing points of view. Not very helpful, is it? But that is how you and those who share your views conduct yourselves on this forum. To whit, you dominate this forum with your stance on immigration and get defensive when challenged. My position is a minority one, that doesn't necessarily mean it is wrong, but then your position isn't necessarily correct either.

There is no debate on this issue because of the reasons that I've outlined nor do any of you want a debate.

 

[dash_two]

There is no debate on this issue because of the reasons that I've outlined nor do any of you want a debate.

It's a cruel, hard world.

 

[nino_savatte]

It's a cruel, hard world.

Is that the best you can do? You and your pals have controlled the discourse on this issue and your reply proves my point.

What's the matter? Don't you like having your views challenged? Of course not, that would mean that you'd have to defend them without resorting to underhand tactics and an over-reliance on poll data.

 

[JimPage]

Of course that may change. Afterall, a core strategy of fascism is control of the streets.

it may have been in the 1980`s but hasnt been for 10 years now- regadless of whatever theory has to say on the matter

 

[audiotech]

Article dated May 2007 about a report into wages and immigration commissioned by the Low Pay Unit and carried out by University College London:



http://www.ucl.ac.uk/media/library/immigration

That was a very selective quote. The full quote reads:

The report goes on to say that although the arrival of economic migrants has benefited workers in the middle and upper part of the wage distribution, immigration has placed downward pressure on the wages of workers in receipt of lower levels of pay. Over the period considered, wages at all points of the wage distribution increased in real terms, but wages in the lowest quarter would have increased quicker and wages further up the distribution would have risen more slowly if it were not for the effect of immigration.

My emphasis.

So increases across the board. No undercutting of wages as such.

 

[audiotech]

No replies then, Trotbots, watch that plane come down in flames...

Because Red (pfft) Jezza posts bollocks that he makes up as he goes along to justify his reactionary bollocks.

He is afterall an ex-public schoolboy, so no suprise there on that score.

 

[audiotech]

it may have been in the 1980`s but hasnt been for 10 years now- regadless of whatever theory has to say on the matter

Their crazy gangs attempt to do that. Not very successfully it should be added.

 

[audiotech]

I am not convinced, you are painting a rosy picture of the booming UK economy which has growth that more than absorbs the increased supply of workers. As you know the simple rule of supply and demand, more workers looking for work depresses wages. I am not sure if it is you or me who is being the new Adam Smith.

Certainly both trends are in evidence, but the dominant tendency is the creation of a low wage economy - or 'Netto wages for Netto prices'. The growing polarisation of the rich from the poor means that this low wage sector is growing. I don't accept your version (higher wages - bigger middling section of society) which goes against concrete research that has already demonstrated the growing polarisation (lower wages - poverty pay).

I wasn't painting any picture. If anyone was it was Amicus.

Economic theory is notorious for being wrong on fundamentals - 'more workers looking for work depresses wages' is a case in point. As every report and every statistic out there at the moment states the opposite.

Furthermore, the report I cited above, that talks about nearly fifty percent of companies worried about the difficulties of filling vacancies due to labour shortages adds extra clout to that contradiction.

The principle player trying to depress wages at the moment is this labour Government trying to hold back public sector wage claims, which it is hoped will also affect other sectors of the economy.

Meanwhile, companies jack up their prices. Supermarkets seeing profits rise by 42 percent is not going to make thier workforce very happy when they are expected to accept lower than inflation wage rises is it?

Where are these trends recorded which you refer to?

 

[audiotech]

But trust me, most people don't want high levels of immigration.

Well, tell me, whose gonna wash their cars? Drive them to their destinations? Pick their vegetables? Process their food? Feed them? Serve them? Deliver their mail? Make them well? Look after their old folk? Build their houses? Work in their health service? Pay their pensions? Etc, etc.............................................................

Because with large labour gaps in the economy and an increasing ageing population, someone has to do these things?

 

[audiotech]

Anyway, back to the title of this thread.

Take a look at the guy in the suit attempting to hide his tatoos down at the count in Thurrock, along with the BNP's first ever councillor - the one and only Derek Beacon - who was caught on camera some time back giving a straight arm salute and featured on the front page of the Daily Mirror.

http://nazisarenobs.blogspot.com/

...one claim coming from their Brownhouse being that the antifascist vote could not stop the BNP as it "surges to 14% of the popular vote."

Let's not forger that in 2006, the BNP had a near whopping 19%, so that's actually a drop of 5%! Or have we missed the 50 new councillors the BNP won this time? The obvious answer being, no!

 

[durruti02]

It was a bit of history and I pointed out how simple it was back then for anti-fascists. I wasn't arguing now for a tactic of opposing them on the streets when they are obviously not marching on said streets.

AFA eventually realised something that most anti-fascist activists had sussed out a long time before their "key activists" anyway.

Of course that may change. Afterall, a core strategy of fascism is control of the streets.

fair play and apology .. thought you were making point

though tbh maybe that is when we first went wrong .. we thought that the way to defeat fascism was to have gigs and stop them marching .. instead they went underground, voted in thatch and then started the long march away from the eyes of the campus based left .. that on one level has born nasty fruit

 

[durruti02]

1)Well, there are a couple of issues here that have, thus far, been dismissed out of hand by the hardline anti-immigrationists:

2) the first, is that aping the BNP's stance on immigration is a very dangerous game to play.

3)The second, is that when one talks about the "working class", one tends to mean "white working class" and, even with that phrase, there is a problematic, because it presumes that all working class people have similar thoughts and beliefs on a range of issues, namely immigration. it also overlooks the fact that many so-called working class people draw down incomes that are comparable to City salaries.

4) This is political expediency, nothing more and nothing less. If my finger hurts, do I cut off my hand to relieve the pain? No.

entirely wrong nino

1) there are NO hard line anti immigrationists on urban .. inflammatory language mate .. you need to watch that

2) i see no one aping the BNP stance on immigration which .. if you looked at their web site .. is clearly about colour and culture NOT wages/class/resistance etc

3) again entirely wrong .. i come from a mainly afro caribean area with VERY high youth unemploymnet .. . it is they who have been disproportionately affected by the EU immigration .. try reading the Voice .

4) no it is not .. it is analysising what capitalism is doing and arguing then what the w/c needs to do

 

[durruti02]

That's a nice clown costume you're wearing. Do you ever post anything that doesn't contain insults?

Funny how none of you ever comment on the 500 Britons who leave this country every day. For you lot, it's all one way traffic and as far as debate is concerned, there is none: you've seen to that.

Over to you, shit-for-brains.

you do not like dealing with reality do you ..

p.s. i was glad you did the 500 a day thread .. numbers are entirely irrelevant .. that emigration it is simply the other side of the coin of the cheap labour immigration

.. a class that is forced to be mobile and lacks communities is IMPOTENT .. this is the issue ..

 

[durruti02]

Well, tell me, whose gonna wash their cars? Drive them to their destinations? Pick their vegetables? Process their food? Feed them? Serve them? Deliver their mail? Make them well? Look after their old folk? Build their houses? Work in their health service? Pay their pensions? Etc, etc.............................................................

Because with large labour gaps in the economy and an increasing ageing population, someone has to do these things?

MC there are hundreds of thousends ( millions) of unemployed youth in our cities .. i find it absolutely incredible that NOT all socialists argue that our IMMEDIATE priority should be to get those people lives/ jobs/ money /careers

and if we do not argue this .. you know who will ..

 

[The Black Hand]

MC there are hundreds of thousends ( millions) of unemployed youth in our cities .. i find it absolutely incredible that NOT all socialists argue that our IMMEDIATE priority should be to get those people lives/ jobs/ money /careers

and if we do not argue this .. you know who will ..

Cameron, Blair, President Brown, Emporer Ming and the Scottish Salmon

 

[becky p]

Article dated May 2007 about a report into wages and immigration commissioned by the Low Pay Unit and carried out by University College London:



http://www.ucl.ac.uk/media/library/immigration

Whatever evidence is produced can safely be dismissed by some as irrelevant and biased. Anybody who disagrees with them must be racists.

 

[audiotech]

MC there are hundreds of thousends ( millions) of unemployed youth in our cities .. i find it absolutely incredible that NOT all socialists argue that our IMMEDIATE priority should be to get those people lives/ jobs/ money /careers

and if we do not argue this .. you know who will ..

But there are jobs in agriculture and processing which unemployed youth will not touch with a bargepole, even if they lived anywhere near the fens. Similarly, jobs in catering, washing cars etc.

Reportedly in the press today there is a scheme in London to recruit local unemployed in the East End by the NHS. They have recruited a massive seven people.

A socialist should also not create divisions in the working class.

 

[audiotech]

....................

 

[dash_two]

So increases across the board. No undercutting of wages as such.

But increased inequality and a situation where the lower-paid are still worse off than they would otherwise have been.

Funny how some leftists sound like they're giving a speech to the CBI when they start defending the importation of cheap labour.

 

[poster342002]

But there are jobs in agriculture and processing which unemployed youth will not touch with a bargepole, even if they lived anywhere near the fens. Similarly, jobs in catering, washing cars etc.

Reportedly in the press today there is a scheme in London to recruit local unemployed in the East End by the NHS. They have recruited a massive seven people.

Yes, it's all the fault of these lazy, feckless working class proles who just won't take the opportunities given to them by our bosses. Don't they see this is a land of opportunity?

I'm staggered that your above post comes from anyone who purports to be on the left. It reads like a piece of tory, or nulab drivel.

 

[nino_savatte]

you do not like dealing with reality do you ..

p.s. i was glad you did the 500 a day thread .. numbers are entirely irrelevant .. that emigration it is simply the other side of the coin of the cheap labour immigration

.. a class that is forced to be mobile and lacks communities is IMPOTENT .. this is the issue ..

No, durutti, you don't like dealing with reality. You ignore emigration in order to advance your ideas on immigration. The numbers of people emigrating are not "irrelevant"; they are only "irrelevant" because such figures undermine your deeply held notion that Britain is being "swamped" by immigrants.

Furthermore, you have deliberately and wilfully misrepresented that letter from Marx on the other thread. You seem to have a problem with history, namely the fact that Ireland was part of the British Empire; it was not an independent country until the 1930's.

You project, obfuscate and dodge. You smear and you lie.

 

[nino_savatte]

entirely wrong nino

1) there are NO hard line anti immigrationists on urban .. inflammatory language mate .. you need to watch that

2) i see no one aping the BNP stance on immigration which .. if you looked at their web site .. is clearly about colour and culture NOT wages/class/resistance etc

3) again entirely wrong .. i come from a mainly afro caribean area with VERY high youth unemploymnet .. . it is they who have been disproportionately affected by the EU immigration .. try reading the Voice .

4) no it is not .. it is analysising what capitalism is doing and arguing then what the w/c needs to do

No, it isn't entirely "wrong" and nowhere in this post have you successfully refuted any of my points.

try reading the Voice

You may just as well tell me to "read The Sun".

You have consistently failed to idenify who these immigrants are. Easern Europeans are allowed to work here under EU rules. So who are these immigrants and where do they come from? Are they immigrants or refugees?

You can't or won't answer the last questions because your thesis would look even more ridiculous. I'll tell you: they're from the Middle East and they're from Africa.

) i see no one aping the BNP stance on immigration which .. if you looked at their web site .. is clearly about colour and culture NOT wages/class/resistance etc

And you have the cheek to call me "stupid". Are you fucking blind as well as wilfully ignorant?

there are NO hard line anti immigrationists on urban .. inflammatory language mate .. you need to watch that

Oooh, I'm shaking in me size 9's. You and baldwin are hardline anit-immigrationists. You have started over 16 threads on the subject in the space of a year.

 

[nino_savatte]

But there are jobs in agriculture and processing which unemployed youth will not touch with a bargepole, even if they lived anywhere near the fens. Similarly, jobs in catering, washing cars etc.

Reportedly in the press today there is a scheme in London to recruit local unemployed in the East End by the NHS. They have recruited a massive seven people.

A socialist should also not create divisions in the working class.

Innit, durutti and his pals won't admit to any of that because their theses would be shot full of holes.

Your last point is lost on folk like durutti. He's no socialist.

 

[JimPage]

Anyway, back to the title of this thread.


http://nazisarenobs.blogspot.com/

if this passes for analysis of the BNP vote, god help us

Yes- the BNP % vote was down to an average 14.7% , down from 19.2% in 2006, conveniently ignoring that the number of canddiates has doubled- with them going into places wards where they havent stood before- and polling modestly as a result

It ignores the increase in the BNP vote in many areas- and the correct anlaysis which is that they didnt do as well as they expected- but are far from down and out

And that they will learn from their mistakes for 2007- if not in by-elections before then

 

[KeyboardJockey]

if this passes for analysis of the BNP vote, god help us

I found the site entertaining but took a very lacksadaisical view of the bnp.

Yes- the BNP % vote was down to an average 14.7% , down from 19.2% in 2006, conveniently ignoring that the number of canddiates has doubled- with them going into places wards where they havent stood before- and polling modestly as a result

It ignores the increase in the BNP vote in many areas- and the correct anlaysis which is that they didnt do as well as they expected- but are far from down and out

Agreed.

And that they will learn from their mistakes for 2007- if not in by-elections before then

I keep going on about this and people still don't pick it up. The fash have treated this election as a training ground. They are on the cusp of ditching (at least in public) the meatheads for more electable candidates and that is the time to really worry.

What the fuck is the left doing going to do about that apart from indulge themselves in intellectual wank games about dead Russians. Sadly socilaists in this country prefer to attack their own rather than the real enemy.

The fash are picking up votes because of worrys that cannot be brushed under the carpet. By the time we've sorted the long term problems out ie inequality, access to council housing etc the fash will have overtook many of the left in terms of support.

 

[The Black Hand]

if this passes for analysis of the BNP vote, god help us

Yes- the BNP % vote was down to an average 14.7% , down from 19.2% in 2006, conveniently ignoring that the number of canddiates has doubled- with them going into places wards where they havent stood before- and polling modestly as a result

It ignores the increase in the BNP vote in many areas- and the correct anlaysis which is that they didnt do as well as they expected- but are far from down and out

And that they will learn from their mistakes for 2007- if not in by-elections before then

Jim - could you show me please where you are taking your BNP % analysis from? Or have you done it yourself? ta.

 

[audiotech]

Yes, it's all the fault of these lazy, feckless working class proles who just won't take the opportunities given to them by our bosses. Don't they see this is a land of opportunity?

I'm staggered that your above post comes from anyone who purports to be on the left. It reads like a piece of tory, or nulab drivel.

Listen knobhead, I didn't blame working class youth in that post for not taking up those sort of jobs did I spinmister? I know I wouldn't pick sprouts for minimum wage, so why would I expect anyone else to do it ffs?

Although, all of the jobs i've done so far in my career path have been low pay and mostly shite.

To quote:

Career opportunities are the ones that never knock. Every job they offer you is to keep you out the dock. Career opportunity, the ones that never knock.