Griffin and BNP strategy

[chymaera]

East Europeans are not 'competing' for jobs, or housing. They do the shit jobs, on a temporary basis that no one else wants to do and are holed up in multiple occupancy, usually in the private rented sector, again on a temporary basis.

I don't know where you live, but I have come across a number of people this year who normally do seasonal crop picking and they all had had the same experience, they had turned up as usual to do the work, and were told to **** off (literally), we are only using immigrants.

 

[nino_savatte]

I don't know where you live, but I have come across a number of people this year who normally do seasonal crop picking and they all had had the same experience, they had turned up as usual to do the work, and were told to **** off (literally), we are only using immigrants.

There was a recent undercover investigation about this on telly the other week. I've heard of migrant workers being paid bugger all and being forced to pay rent to their employers.

Sounds a little like the auld company store...

You load sixteen tons, what do you get
Another day older and deeper in debt
Saint Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go
I owe my soul to the company store

http://www.cowboylyrics.com/lyrics/classic-country/sixteen-tons---tennessee-ernie-ford-14930.html

 

[audiotech]

I don't know where you live, but I have come across a number of people this year who normally do seasonal crop picking and they all had had the same experience, they had turned up as usual to do the work, and were told to **** off (literally), we are only using immigrants.

Students was it?

 

[durruti02]

Cameron, Blair, President Brown, Emporer Ming and the Scottish Salmon

not quite sure of your point but as the architects of post thatch neo liberalism i find it odd you would think blair brown and all are not in favour of cheap labour and open borders ( for the bosses)

i suspect we will see an attempot to force youth to take cheap labour jobs but that is a political battle more complicated than getting bright young poles across

ps.s do you remember my thread on 'refusal' and how this has been part of the reason for the encouraging of EU immigration?

 

[durruti02]

But there are jobs in agriculture and processing which unemployed youth will not touch with a bargepole, even if they lived anywhere near the fens. Similarly, jobs in catering, washing cars etc.

Reportedly in the press today there is a scheme in London to recruit local unemployed in the East End by the NHS. They have recruited a massive seven people.

A socialist should also not create divisions in the working class.

but MC as a socialist we can not then stand by as the bosses import people on low wages to do these jobs?????

the principled stance must be that these jobs are made attractive in all ways surely????

 

[durruti02]

No, durutti, you don't like dealing with reality. You ignore emigration in order to advance your ideas on immigration. The numbers of people emigrating are not "irrelevant"; they are only "irrelevant" because such figures undermine your deeply held notion that Britain is being "swamped" by immigrants.

Furthermore, you have deliberately and wilfully misrepresented that letter from Marx on the other thread. You seem to have a problem with history, namely the fact that Ireland was part of the British Empire; it was not an independent country until the 1930's.

You project, obfuscate and dodge. You smear and you lie.

yes we all know about irelands history and we all know about emigration .. sadly that has nowt to do with the argument about how the bosses use people from wherever undercut unions and conditions

 

[durruti02]

No, it isn't entirely "wrong" and nowhere in this post have you successfully refuted any of my points.



You may just as well tell me to "read The Sun".

You have consistently failed to idenify who these immigrants are. Easern Europeans are allowed to work here under EU rules. So who are these immigrants and where do they come from? Are they immigrants or refugees?

You can't or won't answer the last questions because your thesis would look even more ridiculous. I'll tell you: they're from the Middle East and they're from Africa.



And you have the cheek to call me "stupid". Are you fucking blind as well as wilfully ignorant?



Oooh, I'm shaking in me size 9's. You and baldwin are hardline anit-immigrationists. You have started over 16 threads on the subject in the space of a year.

nino mate .. you have lost it completely

 

[durruti02]

Listen knobhead, I didn't blame working class youth in that post for not taking up those sort of jobs did I spinmister? I know I wouldn't pick sprouts for minimum wage, so why would I expect anyone else to do it ffs?

Although, all of the jobs i've done so far in my career path have been low pay and mostly shite.

To quote:

ok so do we stand aside and let the bosses import labour to do these jobs instead of demanding proper conditiuons and wages??

 

[durruti02]

I think that you over estimate the fash, they have suffered a set back - the worst vote since 2000 isn't it? So at a time when they have put in 742 councillors they have been rejected by and large. So far it has been very easy for the BNP - the political conditions worked in its favour, the debris of empire, alienation and political change. However, the first serious test of Griffin will be if he can come up with politics to make their own first breakthrough for themselves. I doubt it, certainly not on the basis of their expressed plans, 2008 will be another year of the BNP treading water/ going backwards. 2009 and the Euro elections will be different though, they will be held throughout Europe during 11–13 June 2009.

attica this is a fringe party a fascist party .. you continually seem to suggest that not winning hundreds of seats is a set back ... sadly this was no set back .. their vote was up .. the percentage was only down as they went into new areas .. you need to check the stats you have misinterpreted them

 

[The Black Hand]

not quite sure of your point but as the architects of post thatch neo liberalism i find it odd you would think blair brown and all are not in favour of cheap labour and open borders ( for the bosses)

i suspect we will see an attempot to force youth to take cheap labour jobs but that is a political battle more complicated than getting bright young poles across

ps.s do you remember my thread on 'refusal' and how this has been part of the reason for the encouraging of EU immigration?

Sorry - it looks like I got the opposite end of the stick of your post. Apologies.

 

[durruti02]

Yeah - its got to stop. It's obsessive and I struggle to see any good it is doing... infact its probably doing political harm.

sorry attica? are yo sure? that we try toanalyse the BNP strategy and try to whats going on with immigration you see as 'doing political harm'??? i am deeply suprised at you

 

[The Black Hand]

attica this is a fringe party a fascist party .. you continually seem to suggest that not winning hundreds of seats is a set back ... sadly this was no set back .. their vote was up .. the percentage was only down as they went into new areas .. you need to check the stats you have misinterpreted them

I am quite happy with my points. They have gone into new areas and so that has dented their %. It still means they are doing badly. Their vote is still the worst council election vote for the BNP since 2000 - and we should shout it to the fash to further demoralise them.

Your position assumes their vote will go up which isn't necessarily the case, as they may provoke people to get off their arse and do stuff against them.

 

[durruti02]

Agreed that it is the normalisation of voting bnp that is worrying. It used to something that people felt a bit ashamed of but not now.

Thats why I think that the traditional methods of fighting the extreme right that used to work when they were all meatheads isn't going to work now.

attica this is what you have missed .. it is now normal for many people to either vote or think about voting for a racist and neo facist party .. you dismiss this at your and all of our perils

 

[durruti02]

Sorry - it looks like I got the opposite end of the stick of your post. Apologies.

fair play

 

[The Black Hand]

sorry attica? are yo sure? that we try toanalyse the BNP strategy and try to whats going on with immigration you see as 'doing political harm'??? i am deeply suprised at you

I am all for serious anti fascist discussion and promote dialogue and conferences. Infact, I am thinking of organising one in... Sunderland. That's only a thought at the minute though a serious one, and in the autumn I will be planning for next year so bear that in mind. I will be at the bookfair on October 27th in London where we can discuss this further if you are interested.

My point was based on the political feel/ambiance of these forums now that this is THE issue.

This issue does not fill me with political confidence.

This is my personal feelings and is not a political position.

 

[durruti02]

I am quite happy with my points. They have gone into new areas and so that has dented their %. It still means they are doing badly. Their vote is still the worst council election vote for the BNP since 2000 - and we should shout it to the fash to further demoralise them.

Your position assumes their vote will go up which isn't necessarily the case, as they may provoke people to get off their arse and do stuff against them.

no you are wrong ... their overall vote was up .. that is a fact .. as you acknowledge the % only went down due to them expanding where they stood

to average 15% in so nearly 1000 seats is incredible .. this is more i suspect than any other facist party in uk history ..

 

[The Black Hand]

attica this is what you have missed .. it is now normal for many people to either vote or think about voting for a racist and neo facist party .. you dismiss this at your and all of our perils

Well their vote in the Euro elections told you that in 2004. There is still an hint of 'dirtyness' with voting BNP, and people know it. They are used as a protest vote, and we have to continue to make sure people know it is a 'dirty' thing to do.

 

[The Black Hand]

no you are wrong ... their overall vote was up .. that is a fact .. as you acknowledge the % only went down due to them expanding where they stood

to average 15% in so nearly 1000 seats is incredible .. this is more i suspect than any other facist party in uk history ..

There overall vote was up but it is still 500K lower than their European Election vote. TBH their European Election vote is the true parameters of their available vote, and I still think they are irrelevant scum who deserve a beasting.

 

[Larry O'Hara]

I am quite happy with my points. They have gone into new areas and so that has dented their %. It still means they are doing badly.

No, it means they are not doing as well as they had hoped.

Their vote is still the worst council election vote for the BNP since 2000 - and we should shout it to the fash to further demoralise them.

They are not demoralised, rather learning from the experience. See (for example) the May BNP Organiser's Bulletin, and even the Griffin article on the web-site.

Your position assumes their vote will go up which isn't necessarily the case, as they may provoke people to get off their arse and do stuff against them.

People already have--and in some cases (like Barking & Dagenham) it seems to have helped the BNP.

Sadly, no evidence to the contrary will convince you the BNP are getting their act together. Your position is based on a priori assumptions into which 'evidence' is then shoe-horned. I repeat--any serious Left group would metaphorically kill to get 14.6% of the vote and 50 council seats. You refer above to the European Elections--omitting to mention that even before the council elections this was always Griffin's main target.

 

[durruti02]

I am all for serious anti fascist discussion and promote dialogue and conferences. Infact, I am thinking of organising one in... Sunderland. That's only a thought at the minute though a serious one, and in the autumn I will be planning for next year so bear that in mind. I will be at the bookfair on October 27th in London where we can discuss this further if you are interested.

My point was based on the political feel/ambiance of these forums now that this is THE issue.

This issue does not fill me with political confidence.

This is my personal feelings and is not a political position.

ok i see what you are saying .. but suprised you seem to supportting some one like nino who is coming at it from a totally unreconstructed position

yes it is a deeply depressing subject and one i do NOT enjoy talking about .. i am constantly being digged by idiots like nino that i am racist and indeed that gets to me .. but as you know these people are not taking positions that are pro working class. they are not coming up with any solutions and we as a movement fall further and further behind . They literally are living in cloud cuckoo land. They fail to understand how this debate is being played out, spun and manipulated in the class and the DESPERATLEY MISSING ELEMENT WHICH IS A PROGRESSIVE POSITION on the subject.

i would prefer to be arguing where we were all going on holiday but theadvance of tthe BNP and the issue of immigration is absolutely key to the state of the left/the movement ..

 

[durruti02]

There overall vote was up but it is still 500K lower than their European Election vote. TBH their European Election vote is the true parameters of their available vote, and I still think they are irrelevant scum who deserve a beasting.

attica .. this was a much smaller constituency!!!!

 

[The Black Hand]

a) No, it means they are not doing as well as they had hoped.

B) They are not demoralised, rather learning from the experience. See (for example) the May BNP Organiser's Bulletin, and even the Griffin article on the web-site.

c) People already have--and in some cases (like Barking & Dagenham) it seems to have helped the BNP.

D) Sadly, no evidence to the contrary will convince you the BNP are getting their act together. Your position is based on a priori assumptions into which 'evidence' is then shoe-horned. I repeat--any serious Left group would metaphorically kill to get 14.6% of the vote and 50 council seats. You refer above to the European Elections--omitting to mention that even before the council elections this was always Griffin's main target.

A) - same thing.

B) - where can I get the May organisers bulletin - on their site i presume?
Well perhaps we should try to make them demoralised then!! Griffin is not the ordinary membership of the BNP who may have got a bit demoralised...

C) - well there's always a chance to do it better then.

D) - big deal, they are now an organised small fascist party. Most countries in Europe have to live with this. Your point?

You have an a priori position of bigging up the BNP. Perhaps the truth lies somewhere in the middle of the gap between the 2 positions?!

 

[The Black Hand]

attica .. this was a much smaller constituency!!!!

Have you worked out what proportion? 800K nationally in the European elections. 300K in 40% of that constituency during these elections? I haven't worked it out - that's a guess btw. I am quite willing to be wrong, these things happen...

 

[liberty123]

I don't think they're quite a spent force. But their growth seems to have reached it's limits, unless there are future race riots. There seems unaminous feeling that Labour are letting too many people into this country especially muslims but the BNP can't tap into this public sentiment, probably because people think they might be secretly be a fascist party.

 

[The Black Hand]

I don't think they're quite a spent force. But their growth seems to have reached it's limits, unless there are future race riots. There seems unaminous feeling that Labour are letting too many people into this country especially muslims but the BNP can't tap into this public sentiment, probably because people think they might be secretly be a fascist party.

Yes, these are possibilities you have described.

Indeed, this could be the limit of their growth now. How they make the next jump is the interesting one, will they clear the hurdle? Will they stall before the next jump? Will Griffin be pushed or will he fall on his sword (lets hope so).

 

[nino_savatte]

nino mate .. you have lost it completely

Hardly. Dream on.

 

[The Black Hand]

here's part of an article by John Cruddas MP from the Aslef train drivers magazine (APril 2007)... the second article in a series where he discussed Cable Street in the previous article. My point is that it is foolish to underestimate the range of voters who are being currently encouraged to be anti BNP, indeed without evidence the drop in the vote could be a result. Analysis to disprove this would show ups and downs (Sunderland was a down voting not a new BNP area)...

"Encouraged by the events
of Cable Street, some people
The fascists
will be defeated
once again
realised that the fascists had
to be defeated within the local
community, and that meant
addressing the issues like
housing. The result was the
Stepney Tenants Defence
League (STDL).
The STDL organised rent
strikes aimed at bringing
recalcitrant slum landlords to
the negotiating table winning
vital concessions and rent
reductions for beleaguered
tenants in the process. They
even assisted fascist tenants
too, saving them from
eviction. The BUF had done
nothing for them. As a result
BUF membership cards were
torn up in disgust.
By helping local people
overcome the problems they
faced in their daily lives and
to help them to understand
that these were not caused by
“Jews” or “alien immigrants”
the STDL raised people’s
political consciousness,
empowered them to take
responsibility for their own
destinies; proving that unity
rather than division was the
only way through which the
community could overcome
the obstacles of social
deprivation.
This form of community
organisation remains a model
for us to use today. And I am
optimistic. In the communities
where the BNP is a threat a
new politics is being forged;
anti-fascists and church
groups, local union branches,
voluntary and political groups
are coming together in new
creative ways to confront the
far right.
Whilst all the political
parties seek the vote of a
specific minority of swing
voters in a highly select part
of the country, a new antifascist
mobilisation is being
co-ordinated to fight the
fascist on a different political
and geographical landscape.
The Battle of Cable Street
helped to set in motion this
more sophisticated and
ultimately more successful
brand of anti-fascist politics.
The lessons are there to be
relearned."

 

[liberty123]

Yes, these are possibilities you have described.

Indeed, this could be the limit of their growth now. How they make the next jump is the interesting one, will they clear the hurdle? Will they stall before the next jump? Will Griffin be pushed or will he fall on his sword (lets hope so).

Well the party was described in the early nineties as neo-nazi by the European commission on anti-semitism. How do you make such an organisation ever respectable outside areas of real racial tension? Griffin's holohoax comment and past denial of gas chambers is an indelible stain that Searchlight knows alienates middle class people of conscience however strongly they feel about immigration and multi-culturalism, but if Griffin goes then they don't really have anyone with the ability to replace him. Most of their supporters being working class, they don't come over well in interviews, because they're not comprised by the natural political class of this country. They struggle to express themselves well, racial issues being a subject in which getting the language right is paramount- if argumants aren't expressed extremely carefully then it's easy for someone to come across simply as a racist baffoon, even to people who are would be sympathisizers. The majority of the population are uneasy about the race situation in Britain yest at the same time are so highly tuned now against racist bigotry. UKIP on the otherhand could do very well if they adopted some of the BNP's clothes on race. A respectable populist anti-immigrant far right party without the anti-semitism and with tried and trained well spoken politicians could become a definite force.

 

[liberty123]

I think simply put the BNP will be unable to make that bridge to respectability.

 

[becky p]

I don't know where you live, but I have come across a number of people this year who normally do seasonal crop picking and they all had had the same experience, they had turned up as usual to do the work, and were told to **** off (literally), we are only using immigrants.

Yet some people still refuse to accept this is the case. They much prefer to hide their heads in the sand and shout out racist.
The BNP are the people who can profit from that stupidity.