butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Well a) she's not a BNP member b) be the 'rate of councillors' (sic) is going up and c) their vote is going up.
Great stuff MC5. Thanks so much.
Great stuff MC5. Thanks so much.
Griffin and BNP strategy
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Indeed. 28% in a ward, incidentally, their canddiates polled 11.3% and 7.3% in for the Durham County Council elections in May 2008. More evidence, no doubt, of BNP decline- doubling their vote and all that.
On matters BNP, looks like Scott McLean and Kenny Smith have finally formed their "Scotland First" group, which i can guess will act in association with their fascist counterparts England First. For a new, reformed, progressive group, they have already signed up the openly nutzi Steve Cartwright, who the BNP up here dumped years ago. Much interent chatter from dissidents about their failure to fight in Glasgow East, and to concentrate on rural north east scotland, where the bulk of their remaining membership in scotland lies
i generally ageree with you .. but how does what you say play in the affected communities??? not well i would say
so yes there IS an romantic nationalism and myths .. BUT they are ALSO partially truths too .. britain DID rule the world .. the british w/c WERE the best paid ( and organised ) in the world .. w/c people DUD have power ( of sorts ) thru their unions and political party ( Labour) .. we DID have the best welfare state ..
a left worth it's salt must be capable of responding to the collapse of both the british empire and british nationalism ( which is dead .. i wonder if and when the BNP will changes its name to 'EnglishNP' ) , the collapse of the working class power, culture and 'it's' welfare state
the BNP simply responds with the idiotic idea that 'communists' have taken over (LOL!!) and have run down the country .. and argues for a rebirth of nationalism while utterly ignoring the fact that the country is run by WASPs .. neo liberal wasps
the liberal left currently responds with both a negative agenda mocking and attacking w/c responses to this crisis OR what are percieved as, and are to an extent, very m/c multi cultural / cosmopolitan responses that do not relate to the vast maj of w/c people, who remain white and non cosmopolitan
it seems clear that it is issues over power that are as crucial as issues relating finance/wages ( or imperialism!lol) that the left always prioritise
there is throughout ALL the BNP and other 'rightist' stiff that we see everywhere today a theme .. of lost power .. of lost rights etc .. over smoking bans, speed cameras, 'the pound', aimed at Brown, at the EU, at immigrants etc etc ... and over and over and over the targets are missed ..
BUT the BNP ARE making the running .. as they DO talk of power .. as did the nsadap .. ( read your reich again .. fascism comes to power by making (false) promises of power) .. and the left NEVER talk of power
a discussion and strategy aimed at helping the w/c get back power is crucial to anti fascism .. the iwca started that debate .. it is up to us all to take it on
The Black Hand
Unclean
Because they had shit results before.
The Black Hand
Unclean
A) She was B) Statistically insignificant in the totality. C) It's been going down year on year.
The Black Hand
Unclean
Simplistic toss helps nobody, but deludes the deludable...
A more comprehensive analysis would start by saying;
There were 3 candidates = 33.3% of the vote had it split evenly. Given the BNP could concentrate their resources from throughout the area on that ward 28% is not reflective of much. It is lower than they have got in other seats in the area. The question is whether the ward will go to them at the next election and I do not think it will.
The Black Hand
Unclean
Consistently better than you
They tried to break through, with a doubling of seats 'out of nowhere' in 2007 - but failed. It was an attempt at a breakthrough on a small scale. What I said holds up, there is no contradiction. You do not even know what contradictions are, you have no background in research methods or Marxist methodology.
As for the London elections they were a year later, and of course could be a different target, as are the Europeans. You are saying nothing.
Paul Marsh
NeitherWashingtonNorMecca
In a way that was also one of the contradictions of the BNP split.
Searchlight were busy telling airheads like Weyman Bennett that the split was between Euro Nationalists such as Sadie Graham and hardcore Nazis around Nick Griffin (something Bennett repeated willingly in UAF press statements) The reality was the anti-Griffin wing contained both headbangers and the 'serious' tendency.
That is another reason why they were doomed to fail - a coherent political message - other than "we don't like Nick Griffin" was never going to emerge.
Oddly, in his analysis of the why the BNP split collapsed (see July's Searchlight) Nick Lowles does not make this basic point.
re above .. are you really so totally unaware how arrogent this appears or then why so many people utterly ignore what you say?? you have forgotten or rejected or maybe never understood CW's maxim that the best way of debate and communication is that, that is the clearest and simplest ..
.. and while you talk of praxis, actually you are lost in a swamp of dogmatic theoretical abstraction, that allows you, absurdly, to dismiss a 28% vote for a fascist party, on your turf, as insignificant.
this was a by election so ALL parties were able to concentrate on that ward .. while you are arguing to undercut the bnp through sarcasm actually by your absurd undifferrence you are normalising the idea that in w/c areas a third of voters vote for fascism .. some undercutting ..
The Black Hand
Unclean
Perhaps it does - but what I said is also true.
Also, if it really was that simple we would have made it politically by now, but we haven't. The world is a really complex place and reductionism (skirting over or ignoring existing knowledge) does not help our politics in the long run. Some knowledge, theory and concepts, are essential for a greater understanding of 'the real world', and as Marx said, revolutionaries go to the root of an issue. In this case Paul was pretending he had a serious insight, when he did not.
It is also tragic that those with little knowledge can windbag (unchallenged) in a very undeserving manner in positions of some responsibility...
The Black Hand
Unclean
Give over, I am not contributing to normalising the bNP vote at all. I tried to explain it in a more comprehensive manner - that is not normalising it. Here is evidence of the extent of BNP canvassing;
http://www.youtubeDOTcom/watch?v=I7TdkIX_SBw
I do not think other parties put anywhere near the amount of effort in the BNP did.
The Black Hand
Unclean
As usual you are wrong Paul - evidence here;
http://greataycliffe.sedgefield.gov...n;jsessionid=904F8075229E86B4A72DF794811113DE
yes you are .. you have declared over and over that it is nothing to worry about that they are consistently getting between 15 and 30% ( and more when they win) in w/c areas .. you are doing a great service to an ideology that has never before had such a base in the british w/c
1) 'what i said is also true' .. you have no self awareness of your arrogance
2) i do not deny this in any way .. i firmly believe in praxis and thus in both practical AND theoretical inputs .. what i am saying is that your positions are NOT based in praxis but in dogmatic theoretical abstraction.
3) this is you from where almost all other posters see you .. please note
The Black Hand
Unclean
Not true. I have never said "there is nothing to worry about" - evidence lacking there boy.
I suppose you had to say that 'I am bigging up the BNP by denying they are doing well', when I have said 'YOU are bigging up the BNP by saying they are doing well'.
Shall we examine this for a moment? IS there any need? We disagree.
I do think that the authentically independent and neutral will look at the evidence and actually side with me.
BECAUSE it is obviously absurd to suggest that arguing 'negatively about the BNP' is actually encouraging their ideology.
It is far more likely that authentic neutrals will agree with me when I say that those who 'say the BNP are doing well' are (more likely) to be encouraging their ideology.
The Black Hand
Unclean
1) Having looked at a dictionary definition of arrogance I can only say that they do not know what arrogance is then. The problem is the low standards and lack of experience of those who have been around a bit. I have no overblown opinion of myself, i have a realistic assesment of my capability, based upon experience and knowledge (i was there you see).
2) You are wrong then - i do have anti fascist practice...
3) What position of responsibility in the movement do I have then Durutti? Sits back, waits.... I contribute as a participant with ideas and knowledge based in reflective experience - totally deserved - i am time served
when previously did fascism regulalry get almost 30% of the vote in durham?
The Black Hand
Unclean
Co. Durham is a big place - 5th largest council i fink. I am 1 person in case you hadn't noticed, you cannot say that BNP results are 'my fault'. That's just (and I despise people who use prejeudicial terminology) insane.
What does 28% mean in a by election? They lost. They have NO seats in the NORTH EAST - despite the repeated hyperbole from southerners about 'how well the bnp are doing' over the past 7 years the BNP have TOTALLY failed to get a seat in this North East working class heartland.
What does that tell you? The North East IS rejecting the BNP constantly
BTW the BNP did get 30% in Durham in May 2008 in 1 seat if my memory is right. THEY will never win that seat either cos LABOUR got 60% plus!!
Co. Durham is a big place - 5th largest council i fink. I am 1 person in case you hadn't noticed, you cannot say that BNP results are 'my fault'. That's just (and I despise people who use prejeudicial terminology) insane.
What does 28% mean in a by election? They lost. They have NO seats in the NORTH EAST - despite the repeated hyperbole from southerners about 'how well the bnp are doing' over the past 7 years the BNP have TOTALLY failed to get a seat in this North East working class heartland.
What does that tell you? The North East IS rejecting the BNP constantly
BTW the BNP did get 30% in Durham in May 2008 in 1 seat if my memory is right. THEY will never win that seat either cos LABOUR got 60% plus!!
your fault?? don't be daft .. but it is true you are not involved in local community or workplace and instead prioritise the 'intelectual struggle' so i think it is fair to say that this HAS happenned on your watch
but again when you say "What does 28% mean in a by election? They lost" .. you do normalise the fascist vote .. you ACCEPT that fascism winning 30% of the vote is acceptable cos they have not actually won seats. It is NOT acceptable .. 1% is maybe acceptable .. 30% is utterly unacceptable and you are accepting, normalising, ignoring this.
i ask you again WHEN in what is a trad left wing area did fascism ever get near to 30% of the vote? i do not know .. you WILL know .. was durham a big New Party area? did Durham vote NF in the 7ts? Are the streets of Chopwell named for Hitler Himmler and Goebells?
The Black Hand
Unclean
A) FFS you know nothing of local conditions around here. Virtually everybody has a very localist attitude, it is not 'my responsibility' at all. Your Goldfish memory shows that you are full of wishful thinking - Look at this thread;
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=7824146&postcount=134
where I say I take part in a local campaign. The only one in our town I know of!! There are no more. Also 'intellectual in intellectual struggle shock'...
B) Talk about Gibberish. FFS. Your desperation is getting worse. That is cos 'normalisation' is inadequately theorised. I have told Butchers this and he doesn't give a toss either. I asked a question - notice the question mark? That is accepting NOTHING... What does losing an isolated council seat mean, even if it's 28% of the vote, when they put a lot of effort into it? Effort they cannot replicate on a mass election time in May.
C) Doing my Catherine Tate impression - am i bovvered? That is not a very good or relevant observation, its chaotic even.
A) FFS you know nothing of local conditions around here. Virtually everybody has a very localist attitude, it is not 'my responsibility' at all. Your Goldfish memory shows that you are full of wishful thinking - Look at this thread;
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=7824146&postcount=134
where I say I take part in a local campaign. The only one in our town I know of!! There are no more. Also 'intellectual in intellectual struggle shock'...
B) Talk about Gibberish. FFS. Your desperation is getting worse. That is cos 'normalisation' is inadequately theorised. I have told Butchers this and he doesn't give a toss either. I asked a question - notice the question mark? That is accepting NOTHING... What does losing an isolated council seat mean, even if it's 28% of the vote, when they put a lot of effort into it? Effort they cannot replicate on a mass election time in May.
C) Doing my Catherine Tate impression - am i bovvered? That is not a very good or relevant observation, its chaotic even.
this is extraordinary .. you seem are arguing that the BNP could get 49% of teh vote in every seat BUT if they do not win any then it is unimportant. you very much appear to be and at the very least you are arguing that it is OK that in your ex left wing neck of the woods a fascist aprty are regularly hitting 30% of the vote .. attica you are no intelectual .. you are a dogmatist who is losing an arguement and can not be brave enough to accept you have got something wrong
The Black Hand
Unclean
Nonsense. Did you notice this "That is accepting NOTHING..." in that other post. Stop warping what I am saying, or projecting with no basis. I do accept that I cannot affect it, that I am talking about my opinion. Should I worry about every individual BNP vote? No. That is the way to early retirement via stress. The political situation we face is not as we would want. Quell Surprise.
The Black Hand
Unclean
Wtf it shows you do not understand much at all Paul. Rather than be ultra left like you, a general with no followers - i prefer to work with society how it is rather than write it all off as you do. You write off the real world! Fantastic. Well done. Not.
YOU have no opposition around the country. The Labour party is, now and today, stopping the BNP in far more wards than you and your ilk will EVER do. They might be responsible at the top level for the existing situation that much is true, but it is inescapable that the lower reaches of the Labour party are stopping the BNP now and today and you cannot replace them. There is a new wave of trade union organisers coming through, some more like Mark M. than Dave Douglass but that's another story.
Your ignorance of the real world, and your inability to work in more broad based alliance(s) condemns you permanently to the margins. Don't reply. I really am not interested in anything you say at all.
BNP to fight a rare by election in Scotland, in the Glasgow Baillieston council ward as and when the election is called (the ward of the SNP winner in Glasgow East)
Am sure there will be left opposition, would be good to see a united left candidate here. And before anyone says "the left will slaughter them" in the 4 wards fought in 2007 by the BNP in Glasgow, they were outpolled by Solidarity in all 4, but beat the SSP in 2, and got the same number as the SSP in the third one
Am sure there will be left opposition, would be good to see a united left candidate here. And before anyone says "the left will slaughter them" in the 4 wards fought in 2007 by the BNP in Glasgow, they were outpolled by Solidarity in all 4, but beat the SSP in 2, and got the same number as the SSP in the third one
will comment later ..
The Black Hand
Unclean
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