Griffin and BNP strategy

[The Black Hand]

Larry sed "To say the above is arrogant shite nowhere near encapsulates it--having had direct malign intervention in relatiion to 5 publishers by Searchlight scum to prevent me getting published in book-form on this topic, you have the impertinence to blame me for this not happening. Ludicrous at best. The interesting question I suppose, is whether you agree with my strategic characterisation of how the Griffin strategy has built on lessons he learnt from his time in the Official NF, especially the formative 1986-90 period. Or if you don't, why not? I (again) suspect you haven't read it--in which case it really is poor form for somebody bandying the term 'political science' about to justify their lack of reading academic sources because they are only available on inter-library loan. No reason why you should read it of course--save for the fact that I was awarded my PhD precisely because, in the thesis, I demonstrated a grasp of that very thing (political science) you claim I have produced nothing worth-while in--leaving aside the canard about 'public availability'."

Big deal - get off you high and mighty horse and join us mortals please, who cannot access your work cos there's one copy of it available. I am not blaming you for that, I objectively described reality though for us public mortals who desperately want to learn the thoughts of Chairman O'Hara. I never said you haven't written any serious political science, I said if it was publically available I wasn't aware of it (and my point was that it is not publically available). I just want to read something that everybody else has a reasonable chance of reading - that is not a bad thing. I am interested in what you write you know.

 

[The Black Hand]

Larry sed "At the very least I would concede that for various complex reasons the BNPs electoral showing in the North East has been comparatively poor--although they have established themselves as virtually the only meaningful opposition electorally." This is not true, they are not opposition nor are they meaningful - they certainly aren't 'meaningful opposition electorally' either. Everybody treats them with outsider contempt. Good.

 

[Paul Marsh]

I had to let facts intrude - but the BNP have just got the best ever by-election result by a fascist party in British history (Spence in Sedgfield) in the north east.

They have regularly fielded more candidates in Sunderland than left/anarchist groups have members in the whole of Tyne and Wear, earning some credible votes and second places.

Time will tell if they build on this, but I should imagine quite a few organisations would currently value being on the receiving end of that degree of "outsider contempt"!!!

 

[The Black Hand]

I had to let facts intrude - but the BNP have just got the best ever by-election result by a fascist party in British history (Spence in Sedgfield) in the north east.

They have regularly fielded more candidates in Sunderland than left/anarchist groups have members in the whole of Tyne and Wear, earning some credible votes and second places.

Time will tell if they build on this, but I should imagine quite a few organisations would currently value being on the receiving end of that degree of "outsider contempt"!!!

lets not have facts interlude; Their candidates change faster than you changing your allegiances.

Spence has left the BNP in a very public acruimonious manner which makes them look very bad.

Their vote in Sunderland is going DOWN year on year.

 

[Larry O'Hara]

So, somebody I agree with has "mounted me from behind"--interesting homophobic analogy. A PhD being available on inter-library loan (to anyone, not just students) is, nonetheless, "not publicly available". And now it is my role (as a know fekk-all pleb) to photocopy research material & send it to enquirers (sorry, experts). Marvellous--I can only humbly prostrate myself before such incisive intellect & razor-sharp wit. On the other hand I think I will pass on that one...

 

[The Black Hand]

So, somebody I agree with has "mounted me from behind"--interesting homophobic analogy. A PhD being available on inter-library loan (to anyone, not just students) is, nonetheless, "not publicly available". And now it is my role (as a know fekk-all pleb) to photocopy research material & send it to enquirers (sorry, experts). Marvellous--I can only humbly prostrate myself before such incisive intellect & razor-sharp wit. On the other hand I think I will pass on that one...

Actually I was thinking beastiality larry. I luv gays me, i have 2 in my house at present - I like to keep my hands full

You have photocopied and sent me stuff before Larry, and I have sent you emails too. Passing info on is your choice of course but it was a genuine enquiry as one anti fascist to another, if you want to keep 'expertism' to yourself feel free, and I have acknowledged you as such already on this thread. If you were serious about improving my knowledge of fascism you would pass it on.

 

[The Black Hand]

And have you rewritten your PhD for publication? If you have send me it an email, I will have a look, pass it on and I will help you publish it. No, I am not kidding.

You seem to have missed this Larry. Have you written your PhD for publication then?

I've rewritten mine and it is with a publisher now, then it will come back and they will tell me to change a few things and we will be ready to go. I could be wrong but I do not think so in the estimation that it is too late for 2007, unfortunately.

 

[Larry O'Hara]

You seem to have missed this Larry. Have you written your PhD for publication then?

I've rewritten mine and it is with a publisher now, then it will come back and they will tell me to change a few things and we will be ready to go. I could be wrong but I do not think so in the estimation that it is too late for 2007, unfortunately.

You don't fucking listen do you? I have been approached by one publisher, who then pulled out because of Searchlight scum pressure, and 4 others the scum intervened in too. I am not going to waste my time 'rewriting' something for publication until I know it will be published. End of.

 

[The Black Hand]

You don't fucking listen do you? I have been approached by one publisher, who then pulled out because of Searchlight scum pressure, and 4 others the scum intervened in too. I am not going to waste my time 'rewriting' something for publication until I know it will be published. End of.

I did 'fucking listen' Larry. But there isn't a publisher anywhere who would publish a PhD as it is written for academia, they DO have to be rewritten.

You are now in a self fulfilling prophecy as a result - they have stopped you publishing with 5 so far so you are not going to try to get published anymore. BUT there are many many other publishers. I am sure, or as near as dammit sure that your PhD would be published IF you rewrote it with a publisher I am working closely with. It's not so much rewriting, as an editing task actually with minor re-writing. You give it an introduction that introduces the general public to your book, and take out all the esoteric Academia, just imagine you are writing for the general public and I am sure that it would be relevant.

 

[Larry O'Hara]

I did 'fucking listen' Larry. But there isn't a publisher anywhere who would publish a PhD as it is written for academia, they DO have to be rewritten.

You are now in a self fulfilling prophecy as a result - they have stopped you publishing with 5 so far so you are not going to try to get published anymore. BUT there are many many other publishers. I am sure, or as near as dammit sure that your PhD would be published IF you rewrote it with a publisher I am working closely with. It's not so much rewriting, as an editing task actually with minor re-writing. You give it an introduction that introduces the general public to your book, and take out all the esoteric Academia, just imagine you are writing for the general public and I am sure that it would be relevant.

As usual, you are talking a load of shit--patronising shit at that, implying I am not aware of how books should be written. I will not waste further time in pointless discussion with you on this matter.

 

[The Black Hand]

As usual, you are talking a load of shit--patronising shit at that, implying I am not aware of how books should be written. I will not waste further time in pointless discussion with you on this matter.

Pardon me for trying to help Larry. I was being serious, you haven't had your book published in 6 years is it now, and I was encouraging you. You say I am being patronising, that's true I was trying to help, that immediately signifies a position of being able to help (a patron), and I am. You are rejecting the hand that is trying to feed u but that is your choice, you appear to think you have it all sussed for some reason and are able to go it alone. Mine was a genuine non sectarian political science offer to encourage interesting writing. Oh well....

 

[The Black Hand]

As usual, you are talking a load of shit--patronising shit at that, implying I am not aware of how books should be written. I will not waste further time in pointless discussion with you on this matter.

Larry I do not write with you as the sole target - i write generally so others can see what is going on. I wasn't trying to be 'cleverer than you'...

 

[JHE]

Getting back on topic...

The BNP has won the by-election in Loughton. The election was called because a BNP councillor resigned (I can't remember why) - so it's a 'hold' rather than a 'gain'.

Loughton Alderton ward - Epping Forest District Council

BNP 393 (32.2%) (-5.4)
Residents Assoc. 367 (30.1%) (+1.0)
LD 172 (14.1%) (+10.5)
Con 163 (13.3%) (-3.1)
Lab 98 (8.0%) (-5.2)
UKIP 28 (2.3%) (n/a)​

http://www.eppingforestdc.gov.uk/news/2007/Loughton_Alderton_Result_of_Poll.asp


Loughton Alderton ward is a bit odd. Two other wards nearby - Loughton Broadway & Loughton Fairmead - have BNP councillors too. Broadmead and Fairmead wards make up most of Debden, Loughton's large post-war council estate. Alderton, on the other hand, includes (a very long) Alderton Hill, which, far from being part of Debden, is bloody Multimillionaire Row!

 

[treelover]

Does that mean the very rich have voted BNP, if so its very significant as it means they are now viewed by some of the rich as 'respectable'

 

[JHE]

The ward has some council housing as well as Alderton Hill with its mansions, gravel drives, Bentleys, swimming pools and so on. I don't know whether the BNP vote in that ward is from working class voters, rich voters or both.

In neighbouring wards with BNP councillors the BNP voters are bound to be working class, but in Alderton I've no way of telling what the class mix among BNPers is.

 

[JHE]

Having had more of a look at the map and looked up the neighbourhood stats from the last census, I have to say Alderton Hill is very atypical of the ward that takes its name. Overall, the class composition of the ward is nothing special.

http://neighbourhood.statistics.gov...5613&i=1001x1003x1004&m=0&enc=1&dsFamilyId=41

 

[PaulOK]

Does that mean the very rich have voted BNP, if so its very significant as it means they are now viewed by some of the rich as 'respectable'

The BNP are increasing their support among the middle classes, as any fascist party should. We all know that fascism has appeal across class boundaries and they must be delighted as being "the voice of the white working class" will only get them so far.

They are also back on 'The Terraces'* I attended the West Ham/Wigan match on Saturday and observed BNP leaflets being passed around in The Central and the West Ham apparel sellers outside the ground openly selling BNP badges and 'Enoch was Right' T-Shirts. Doing a roaring trade! Hear they're back a Chelsea too.

* For all the superior pedants who seem to monopolise this board; I know Terraces no longer exist but it's a turn of phrase.

 

[JimPage]

The interesting thing about this ward is that it was solid labour until 2004- with Labour regularly pulling about 40% of the vote- their vote has now declined to under 10%

2002 result

Loughton Alderton (2 coucnillors to be elected)
Labour 412
Labour 377
Conservative 315
Conservative 292
Liberal Dems 114

A tight contest , but a win nevertheless for the BNP- their first win in a by election since 2004.

Also announced on BNP Website that the sole NF Councillor out there has just come over to the BNP

 

[JHE]

The interesting thing about this ward is that it was solid labour until 2004- with Labour regularly pulling about 40% of the vote- their vote has now declined to under 10%

A lot of ballet dancers have moved into the area in the last few years!

No, sorry, you are right about Labour, but it is also the Tories who have lost support and the support has shifted not just to the BNP, but to the BNP and the Loughton Residents Association. (It's not just in that ward. Both those groups have won seats in the Loughton area: 6 for the BNP, 5 for the LRA.)

 

[JimPage]

as to BNP and elections- watch in particualr the vote in Nuneaton in a few weeks time- where they have polled about 30% in 2 previous by elections in town

 

[The Black Hand]

Oh look at this BNP debacle - they did appallingly hahahahahahhahahahahaha

http://www.thisisyork.co.uk/display.var.1672130.0.lib_dems_win_byelection.php

63 votes only for the BNP! All the local hardcore racists

This is a mere 3.11% of the voting electorate (1.99% of total electorate) and 4th place, only 5 votes ahead of the Greens, so they could easily have been 5th in this ward.

 

[JimPage]

Oh look at this BNP debacle - they did appallingly hahahahahahhahahahahaha

http://www.thisisyork.co.uk/display.var.1672130.0.lib_dems_win_byelection.php

63 votes only for the BNP! All the local hardcore racists

This is a mere 3.11% of the voting electorate (1.99% of total electorate) and 4th place, only 5 votes ahead of the Greens, so they could easily have been 5th in this ward.

Sorry to disagree attica, but while this was a crap result for them- this was far from their strongest ward Its not somewhere they stood in May 2007 in York- fought 9 other wards- so could be considered at best their 10th best ward in town. There are areas they will do crap as there are areas that many parties do crap. Take a by election yesterday in Chemsford Broomfield ward. Greens polled 2.5%, UKIP 2.7% and Labour a less that noteworthy 3.6%. See what i mean?

They continue to grow, and extend their geographical reach. They have announced the formation of 3 new group over the last fortnight (North Tyneside, North Somerset, East Lindsey). They are fighting by elections is 3 local authority areas they have never fought before over the next few weeks (Copeland, Chester-le-street and Corby) and are likely to do very well in by elections in Nuneaton and Rossendale over the next few weeks.

I feel you have been taken in by the bullshit put about by UAF and the like- who are in full fantasy mode at the moment about them beating back the BNP.

 

[Larry O'Hara]

Sorry to disagree attica, but while this was a crap result for them- this was far from their strongest ward Its not somewhere they stood in May 2007 in York- fought 9 other wards- so could be considered at best their 10th best ward in town. There are areas they will do crap as there are areas that many parties do crap. Take a by election yesterday in Chemsford Broomfield ward. Greens polled 2.5%, UKIP 2.7% and Labour a less that noteworthy 3.6%. See what i mean?

They continue to grow, and extend their geographical reach. They have announced the formation of 3 new group over the last fortnight (North Tyneside, North Somerset, East Lindsey). They are fighting by elections is 3 local authority areas they have never fought before over the next few weeks (Copeland, Chester-le-street and Corby) and are likely to do very well in by elections in Nuneaton and Rossendale over the next few weeks.

I feel you have been taken in by the bullshit put about by UAF and the like- who are in full fantasy mode at the moment about them beating back the BNP.

Agreed: and as I have stated, some people cannot discuss this topic rationally....

 

[The Black Hand]

Agreed: and as I have stated, some people cannot discuss this topic rationally....

That's true - you can't can you Larry.

 

[The Black Hand]

Sorry to disagree attica, but while this was a crap result for them- this was far from their strongest ward Its not somewhere they stood in May 2007 in York- fought 9 other wards- so could be considered at best their 10th best ward in town. There are areas they will do crap as there are areas that many parties do crap. Take a by election yesterday in Chemsford Broomfield ward. Greens polled 2.5%, UKIP 2.7% and Labour a less that noteworthy 3.6%. See what i mean?

They continue to grow, and extend their geographical reach. They have announced the formation of 3 new group over the last fortnight (North Tyneside, North Somerset, East Lindsey). They are fighting by elections is 3 local authority areas they have never fought before over the next few weeks (Copeland, Chester-le-street and Corby) and are likely to do very well in by elections in Nuneaton and Rossendale over the next few weeks.

I feel you have been taken in by the bullshit put about by UAF and the like- who are in full fantasy mode at the moment about them beating back the BNP.

Jim - I do not read the UAF. Mine is an objective reading of the existing political organisation of Britain The BNP still stand in less than 5% of UK council wards, they are completely marginal, and they got there from totally irrelevant

If/when they get to standing 4000 councillors standing what will you say then? (if you are talking them up so much now?) That 4k will still only be 20% of UK council seats to. What will you say about them standing in the next general election, and losing (getting no seeats) approx 100K in lost deposits? I will gloat

At the minute with minor modification you are just repeating the BNP's OWN hype about themselves as the UK'S 'fastest growing party' even if you don't intend to. I do not think agreeing with them is anti fascism.

 

[JimPage]

Jim - I do not read the UAF. Mine is an objective reading of the existing political organisation of Britain The BNP still stand in less than 5% of UK council wards, they are completely marginal, and they got there from totally irrelevant

At the minute with minor modification you are just repeating the BNP's OWN hype about themselves as the UK'S 'fastest growing party' even if you don't intend to. I do not think agreeing with them is anti fascism.[/QUOTE]

At the last local elections, if i recall, they fought 881 candidates at the local elections- out of 10,000 seats up for grabs. However, this should be compared to labour and the liberals, who only managed about 6,500 candidates.

As to reporting on BNP Hype- its not hype to simply say they are taking the fight to 3 more council areas they havent fought in before. Its simply true.

 

[JimPage]

Agreed: and as I have stated, some people cannot discuss this topic rationally....

http://www.channel4.com/news/articl...tics/bnp+site+gets+most+political+hits/799152

even more hype from that notorious pro-bnp source, channel 4, reporting that the BNP website is by far and away the most popular political party website in the UK in terms of visits

 

[JimPage]

some more poor results for them (4-8%)in North wales and liverpool but a vote of 27.5% in Rossendale Irwell ward yesterday...

 

[The Black Hand]

some more poor results for them (4-8%)in North wales and liverpool but a vote of 27.5% in Rossendale Irwell ward yesterday...

Real anti fascist analysis would identify just what it is about the wards that give them approx 27% of the vote, and why they get 3-8% in others. What exists at present is inadequate IMHO. I would like to see ABCDE class breakdowns of wards, and some information about house prices in such analysis, and perhaps some cultural history of the wards too. That sort of analysis could help anti fascists in strategic and tactical campaigns.

At the minute all there seems to be is well meaning angst about an undefined 'political vacuum'.

 

[JimPage]

Real anti fascist analysis would identify just what it is about the wards that give them approx 27% of the vote, and why they get 3-8% in others. What exists at present is inadequate IMHO. I would like to see ABCDE class breakdowns of wards, and some information about house prices in such analysis, and perhaps some cultural history of the wards too. That sort of analysis could help anti fascists in strategic and tactical campaigns.

At the minute all there seems to be is well meaning angst about an undefined 'political vacuum'.

hoepfully this will help

http://www.rossendale.gov.uk/site/scripts/download_info.php?downloadID=413

quite good ward profiles

my understanding is that the ward the BNP did well in was their local target ward for their Rochdale and Roissendale group and where they have been plugging away for years with local bulletins, door to door paper sales etc.