Griffin and BNP strategy

[Larry O'Hara]

I was surprised that you had not quoted Griffin publicly.

Do you think I'm so egotistical I need to reproduce everything everybody says about me??

I haven't quoted what else you have said (so far) because I haven't found it necessary.

By not doing so, you (perhaps inadvertently) convey to Urban 75 a potentially incorrect sense of my views--which I have had to correct. For me, context is always necessary.

 

[Larry O'Hara]

A) DO tell then, or is it in the latest issue of Borderland and you want us to pay for it?

I'm not an animal jumping through hoops, whether provided by you or anybody else. I will "tell" what I feel like, where & when I feel like it. End of.

B) "I think I will start a fund" does not mean that I have done it or will do it. I think it is unwise to say something about something which doesn't exist.

You asked for an opinion, I gave you one. It is for others viewing this to decide on how consistent your response is with your original post. Or how adequately you have countered my opinion.

 

[The Black Hand]

Do you think I'm so egotistical I need to reproduce everything everybody says about me??

By not doing so, you (perhaps inadvertently) convey to Urban 75 a potentially incorrect sense of my views--which I have had to correct. For me, context is always necessary.

By all means feel free to add your other comments to give a comprehensive view of your perspective.

I like context, I am a stickler for detail

 

[The Black Hand]

I'm not an animal jumping through hoops, whether provided by you or anybody else. I will "tell" what I feel like, where & when I feel like it. End of.

You asked for an opinion, I gave you one. It is for others viewing this to decide on how consistent your response is with your original post. Or how adequately you have countered my opinion.

A) Indeed you shall. Quite clearly you don't want to tell us now, even though this is a public debating forum where requests for information are usually supplied.

B) Indeed I did. No, it is not for others to decide how 'consistent my response is with my original post'. The consistency is in my orginal post, it was a post which floated an idea, not one which suggested that idea had already got off the ground. Your misreading of that post is however out there for others to see.

 

[Larry O'Hara]

A) Indeed you shall. Quite clearly you don't want to tell us now, even though this is a public debating forum where requests for information are usually supplied.

I don't do hoops, period!

The consistency is in my orginal post, it was a post which floated an idea, not one which suggested that idea had already got off the ground. Your misreading of that post is however out there for others to see.

Or not. I commented on your advocacy, as in "I think I will start a fund", I did not say it had been started--why you should then misrepresent my response is something for the experts...

 

[The Black Hand]

I don't do hoops, period!

Or not.

I don't do hoops either, perhaps we should start a magazine together

Definately maybe.

 

[Larry O'Hara]

I don't do hoops either, perhaps we should start a magazine together

Definately maybe.

I already have one: how about you??

 

[The Black Hand]

I commented on your advocacy, as in "I think I will start a fund", I did not say it had been started--why you should then misrepresent my response is something for the experts...

You said that 'I advocated paying money to people who beat up a fascist'

Here is your quote;

to "advocate on a public bulletin-board that you will pay money to third parties to beat anyone up, even a fascist, is, shall we say, unwise, on a number of levels."

To me this suggests that it is decided that I will pay money to somebody to beat up a fascist, and that it is unwise for me to say this publically.

I do not think there is any other reasonable interpretation of your quote.

Anyway, I am not really interested in discussion of the semantics of this case so I am going to end it here. THE END. NO MORE. NEVER. EVER. FULL STOP.

 

[Larry O'Hara]

Griffin admits on his blog that he was in a punch up causing sore knuckles "two weeks ago in Sussex", the post was dated 14th March. So does anybody know to what this refers?

I think I will start a fund you can donate too. I will regularly update the amount publically as it gets ever higher.

The WINNER gets whatever has been collected by the point in time the twatting occurs, the money goes to whoever (with proof) twats Nick Griffin What d'ya think?

Just to remind you of what you said, as it seems you have forgotten, judging by your attempt to misrepresent my comments on it.

 

[The Black Hand]

I already have one: how about you??

It has been largely written for some time, and the shadow it will cast over the movement will indeed be large I know you're on the edge of your seat Larry, desperate to get your hands on the brilliance of our new magazine. DO you want an invite to the launch?

 

[The Black Hand]

Just to remind you of what you said, as it seems you have forgotten, judging by your attempt to misrepresent my comments on it.

I know what I said, "I think" is a thought, and thoughts can change Larry. I haven't misrepresented anything. Carry on squirming all you like but you are impaling yourself further onto the hook.

 

[Larry O'Hara]

It has been largely written for some time, and the shadow it will cast over the movement will indeed be large I know you're on the edge of your seat Larry, desperate to get your hands on the brilliance of our new magazine. DO you want an invite to the launch?

Why not? I do not wish you (or it) ill at all--the more the merrier...If it fits my schedule I'd be happy to attend! In fact if it were called "The Shadow" that would be great--although on reflection Adam Busby's magazine was called The Shadow, so maybe not...What is the title by the way?

 

[Larry O'Hara]

I know what I said, "I think" is a thought, and thoughts can change Larry. I haven't misrepresented anything. Carry on squirming all you like but you are impaling yourself further onto the hook.

 

[JimPage]

http://www.thisissouthwales.co.uk/d...tentPK=17891143&folderPk=88499&pNodeId=161375

An election in Swansea in July - BNP polled 10% first time out on a very low turnout. This shows their marginality and their national news worthyness at the same time.

But as a comparison as to where the left are- Solidarity managed a mere 1.2%in a by eleciton up here in Aberdeen last week. Even 10% is streets ahead of where the left is in many places

Forthcoming by election candidates in Liverpool, Rossendale, Epping Forest, York, Nuneaton and Whitehaven. Zero socialist canddiated against them ,anywhere

 

[JimPage]

hi dur
Sorry, I wasn’t intending to appear like I was belittling the threat of a fascist parties. I just think some people on here over exaggerate.what butchers said was fair, they are doing well compared to 20 years ago.

I think the fair comparison is against 2001, when they had 0 councillors.




And comparatively are they doing as well As Front Nationale? The working class there has shown that they can deal with a far more entrenched fascist threat.
From what i can see, i see them making little headway against the FN, whose current downturn is caused by Sarkozy


On the issue of people voting BNP. I’m not saying you’re saying this, but just to be clear, I do not think the 10% who voted BNP are fascist. Something like 90% of the BNP voters I have spoken to refuse to believe the BNP are fascist,or recognize they are fascist and only vote for them as a protest vote, and say if they did believe the BNP were fascist or posed a real threat, they wouldn’t vote for them.

And that is a huge problem- and if the bnp neither sound, act, speak, look or feel fascist- we are left with quoting Trotsky on Fascism at them. The word fascism has been overused by the left as a whole to apply to anyone left of the SWP- no wonder people dont recognise a fascist when one comes along

 

[Larry O'Hara]

But as a comparison as to where the left are- Solidarity managed a mere 1.2%in a by eleciton up here in Aberdeen last week. Even 10% is streets ahead of where the left is in many places

Forthcoming by election candidates in Liverpool, Rossendale, Epping Forest, York, Nuneaton and Whitehaven. Zero socialist canddiated against them ,anywhere

I agree with you on the severity of the problem the BNP pose for anti-fascists. But as you will have already realised, there are some people on here who will not be convinced by any amount of evidence, and are self-deluded beyond all reason, claiming to know something about a serious subject (the BNP) they know nothing about. Rational argument will not convince them of anything.

 

[The Black Hand]

But as a comparison as to where the left are- Solidarity managed a mere 1.2%in a by eleciton up here in Aberdeen last week. Even 10% is streets ahead of where the left is in many places

Forthcoming by election candidates in Liverpool, Rossendale, Epping Forest, York, Nuneaton and Whitehaven. Zero socialist canddiated against them ,anywhere

That does not mean there are no socialists. Or marxists and/or anarchists for that matter. It also assumes that the 'public' will not generate its' own more egalitarian politics in a crisis situation from its own repertoire of political experience.

 

[The Black Hand]

I agree with you on the severity of the problem the BNP pose for anti-fascists. But as you will have already realised, there are some people on here who will not be convinced by any amount of evidence, and are self-deluded beyond all reason, claiming to know something about a serious subject (the BNP) they know nothing about. Rational argument will not convince them of anything.

Those who reflect BNP writings are not creating anti fascism though Larry, as as for rational argument do me a favour. RA/IWCA/ and you also over exaggerate the problem - it is still not a national problem for example.... That is not denying that the BNP exist in a lot of places, but there lots of others where politically they do not. I see what Griffin is doing but there are also tremendous political problems for the BNP, there are lots of people/things in their way. At the minute they are a very very small party (compared to Europe where there are many far larger far right parties without the exicitable tone of UK anti fascists), they have gone from totally irrelevant to completely marginal, and so to over play their chances, crying wolf so to speak, is not serious politics.

It is also wrong to try to generate a wider politics off theory formulated in the anti fascist sphere, it simply isn't transferrable.

 

[Larry O'Hara]

Those who reflect BNP writings are not creating anti fascism though Larry,

I do hope you're not presuming to imply that is what I do, or have ever done.

as for rational argument do me a favour. RA/IWCA/ and you also over exaggerate the problem - it is still not a national problem for example.... That is not denying that the BNP exist in a lot of places, but there lots of others where politically they do not.

What is known as a 'straw man' argument--you impute to others views they do not hold, and then criticise them for such. The fact is, all the BNP has to do is put up a stuck pig in most places, and they get 10% of the vote--a figure the Last Century Left would die for.

I see what Griffin is doing but there are also tremendous political problems for the BNP, there are lots of people/things in their way. At the minute they are a very very small party (compared to Europe where there are many far larger far right parties without the exicitable tone of UK anti fascists),

They are small indeed--but sadly bigger than any far left party, by a considerable margin.

they have gone from totally irrelevant to completely marginal, and so to over play their chances, crying wolf so to speak, is not serious politics.

Yet another straw man--but then, if it makes you happy to assert such baseless claims, feel free.

It is also wrong to try to generate a wider politics off theory formulated in the anti fascist sphere, it simply isn't transferrable.

Who has done that? Certainly not me, yet that's the straw man implication yet again. And so on...

 

[The Black Hand]

I was not playing that old song 'Only You' Larry so please calm down you excitable soul

 

[Larry O'Hara]

I was not playing that old song 'Only You' Larry so please calm down you excitable soul

Given that you came out with such drivel directly below a reproduction of my post, any reasonable person would be entitled to conclude you were writing about me. There again.....

 

[The Black Hand]

Given that you came out with such drivel directly below a reproduction of my post, any reasonable person would be entitled to conclude you were writing about me. There again.....

There you go again "the exicitable tone of UK anti fascists" does apply to you then. I was right.

 

[Larry O'Hara]

There you go again "the exicitable tone of UK anti fascists" does apply to you then. I was right.

I rest my case.

 

[The Black Hand]

You retire easily. There's much to do...

 

[JimPage]

I agree with you on the severity of the problem the BNP pose for anti-fascists. But as you will have already realised, there are some people on here who will not be convinced by any amount of evidence, and are self-deluded beyond all reason, claiming to know something about a serious subject (the BNP) they know nothing about. Rational argument will not convince them of anything.

To be honest rational arguement is needed- its all we have. The penny will drop one day...

 

[The Black Hand]

here's some then Jim.

Larry Said

"The fact is, all the BNP has to do is put up a stuck pig in most places, and they get 10% of the vote--a figure the Last Century Left would die for." yes, and? The old Left is not the one to compare the vote with. I and many others do not view the vote as that important nor interesting as it is easily explainable. Bourgeois elections are not that interesting really, and certainly have little, if anything to do with authentic democracy. You would be better off comparing the new social movement, its politics and chances, with the BNP. But then you would not be comparing 'like for like' and analysis would get more difficult.

The BNP have a position Gramsci would call 'national popular', they hold it NOT because of their capability, but because of who they are, the ideological descendants of the fascists. The media cover fascism big style because of the offensive nature of fascism for the capitalist status quo. In short, the BNP are a paper tiger at present.

 

[butchersapron]

You've just spent the majority of this thread arguing that the old left would take care of things. Some consistency please.

You so out of your depth.

 

[Larry O'Hara]

here's some then Jim.

Larry Said

"The fact is, all the BNP has to do is put up a stuck pig in most places, and they get 10% of the vote--a figure the Last Century Left would die for." yes, and? The old Left is not the one to compare the vote with. I and many others do not view the vote as that important nor interesting as it is easily explainable. Bourgeois elections are not that interesting really, and certainly have little, if anything to do with authentic democracy.

The question is not what they have to do with 'authentic democracy' but whether they can help fascists build their strength. Fascists do not even need a majority to seize power, as Weimar showed. No doubt the KPD were similarly disinterested in bourgeois elections--a mistake they were deprived of the chance to rectify, from within a concentration camp.

You would be better off comparing the new social movement, its politics and chances, with the BNP.

What 'new social movement'? Where is it, have we missed something?

The BNP have a position Gramsci would call 'national popular', they hold it NOT because of their capability, but because of who they are, the ideological descendants of the fascists.

If you deigned to sully your pristine theses with examination of reality, you would find that the BNP are practising 'Gramscism of the Right', as illustrated yet again in Griffins article on 'Building Nationalist Strongholds' in this month's Identity. But I forgot, you don't 'do' evidence do you--far easier to make ex cathedra pronouncements devoid of reference to such. No doubt something you have never read, nor are likely to, will be dismissed as 'irrelevant', 'unhelpful', 'unnecessary', or I will be accused of talking up fascists because I dare to examine the reality of what they're up to, rather than rehash Otto Ruhle in a politically homeopathic way.

The media cover fascism big style because of the offensive nature of fascism for the capitalist status quo. In short, the BNP are a paper tiger at present.

How the second vacuous sentence follows from the first, only you knows. And so on. As I said, waste of time.

 

[The Black Hand]

You've just spent the majority of this thread arguing that the old left would take care of things. Some consistency please.

You so out of your depth.

1. I never did.

2. It is you who are drowning coz you are so out of your depth.

 

[The Black Hand]

Quote:
The BNP have a position Gramsci would call 'national popular', they hold it NOT because of their capability, but because of who they are, the ideological descendants of the fascists.


Larry - If you deigned to sully your pristine theses with examination of reality, you would find that the BNP are practising 'Gramscism of the Right', as illustrated yet again in Griffins article on 'Building Nationalist Strongholds' in this month's Identity. But I forgot, you don't 'do' evidence do you--far easier to make ex cathedra pronouncements devoid of reference to such. No doubt something you have never read, nor are likely to, will be dismissed as 'irrelevant', 'unhelpful', 'unnecessary', or I will be accused of talking up fascists because I dare to examine the reality of what they're up to, rather than rehash Otto Ruhle in a politically homeopathic way.

REPLY - I have read it and I am not bothered by their political practice. I said this; The BNP have a position Gramsci would call 'national popular', they hold it NOT because of their capability, but because of who they are, the ideological descendants of the fascists. And it's true. The BNP have done fekk all that deserves their level of vote.


Quote:
The media cover fascism big style because of the offensive nature of fascism for the capitalist status quo. In short, the BNP are a paper tiger at present.


How the second vacuous sentence follows from the first, only you knows. And so on. As I said, waste of time.

Larry - it is clear that it is a waste of time arguing with you cos you cannot cope with people who may disagree. Get real, live with it, deal with it, the real world is full of disagreements. You have not proved your case sufficiently. If I had read a seriously good political science article by you then you may convince me with the thoroughness of your research, the evidence and the analysis. However, you have not done so yet, or done so and made it available.

Butchers, rather than do any serious research of his own has decided to piggyback on everybody elses