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Griffin and BNP strategy

Keep working your way backwards through the results 10% form nothing is a good result -esp in Swansea. That's from a regional paper btw not a national one. What is it going to take to drill this into you? They are doing very well, your tutting at people who poin this out is what...?

Don't skip the 15-30% though as you work through them.
 
By the measure of their and all far-right's parties previous votes - sustained and one-offs, local or nationally. Have a read of the thread, it's mentioned in passing.
 
Yep, meant little as in been kept quiet about, it's huge text though with little on each page and could be done in a few hours. Not done it myself. Always worth trying to see what FOIAs searchlight are up to.
 
butchersapron said:
Funny little thing via FOIA on the electoral commission site, added a few weeks back:

Third party campaigning & the BNP

(Bottom link)
Click to expand...

interesting that Searchlight should pro-actively raise this themselves. All in line with the fact, as I have personally found when I requested their files on me via Data Protection Legislation, Searchlight ignore the law, are immune from it, and brazenly flout it themselves.
 
butchersapron said:
Keep working your way backwards through the results 10% form nothing is a good result -esp in Swansea. That's from a regional paper btw not a national one. What is it going to take to drill this into you? They are doing very well, your tutting at people who poin this out is what...?

Don't skip the 15-30% though as you work through them.
Click to expand...

TBH Butch - your rendition of YMCA has left you gasping for breath again;)

I lived in Swansea for 4 years so you are prounouncing on the class composition of that area in a way you have not experienced. Actually in my estimation that 10% shows they are going to have the trouble overcoming the Labour party similar to the trouble they are having in Sunderland, where their vote has approx halved steadily in 4 years. 10% from nothing for a national party, in effect that is what they are given their publicity, is not exceptional. It may not even deserve the label good, it depends on what effort they put in on the ground. Without that knowledge I think 'they did OK' is sifficient.
 
Attica said:
TBH Butch - your rendition of YMCA has left you gasping for breath again;)

I lived in Swansea for 4 years so you are prounouncing on the class composition of that area in a way you have not experienced. Actually in my estimation that 10% shows they are going to have the trouble overcoming the Labour party similar to the trouble they are having in Sunderland, where their vote has approx halved steadily in 4 years. 10% from nothing for a national party, in effect that is what they are given their publicity, is not exceptional. It may not even deserve the label good, it depends on what effort they put in on the ground. Without that knowledge I think 'they did OK' is sifficient.
Click to expand...

What year did you live in Swansea attica? And do you think nothing has changed as regards class composition since then?

And sorry, 10% on an area where they didn't exist is good no matter which way that you try once more to spin a good BNP result into a bad one. And no, those sunderland figures didn't show that did they. 'OK', is what the left are rarely getting, 'ok' is now underperformming for the BNP.

Yes, i know your tired old analysis, nothing to worry about as labour and the tories will stop them. Vote Labour, vote tory.
 
Butch - no, you are misinterpreting what I am saying as per, you need a bit more dynamism in your thought. I am describing most accurately what is happening.

10% is OK. You are failing to consider their de facto national publicity machine. Based on such wide brand recognition 10% is not that good. OK is the most accurate description.
 
butchersapron said:
By the measure of their and all far-right's parties previous votes - sustained and one-offs, local or nationally. Have a read of the thread, it's mentioned in passing.
Click to expand...
Oh yes, by that measure they are doing very well. But I do have to agree with attica, as well. There is an element of, if this was any other political party voicing its one issue message in the way the BNP is now, given the 12 years of incessant campaigning by the Daily Mail, Tories, and new Labour etc on asylum and immigration, then they would be doing a lot better I think. The fascist history is still a great impediment to the BNP, isn't it?

This is an honest question. Do people think the BNP mimicking of Front Nationale neo-Nazi tactics weakens neo-Nazis paramilitary organising. And so in the long term weakens it as a last refuge for the bourgeoisie?
 
ResistanceMP3 said:
This is an honest question. Do people think the BNP mimicking of Front Nationale neo-Nazi tactics weakens neo-Nazis paramilitary organising. And so in the long term weakens it as a last refuge for the bourgeoisie?
Click to expand...

What neo-Nazis paramilitary organising? It's not the 1930s, nor is it the 1970s. Electoral success has totally blown away any organised street based activity for the forseeable future - it's just not on the cards apart from a few loose canons. Trotsky's analysis appllied to the specific conditions of the time in which he was writing, conditions that no longer exist and that aren't coming back any time soon. The map needs changing -the BNP have managed to recognise this and have had some meaure of success with it. It's time the left did likewise.

In todays conditions the danger isn't the system suffering collapse through class struggle and capital turning to fascists in their hour of need (and that's not only the oudated map that some on the left use but the BNPs too), but the far-right making the class struggle that much harder by coloninsing the political space of the working class. That's the danger, not concentration camps, not jackboots on the champs elysee but racialisation of social issues and this then becoming th default start point for independent woking class politics.

(marxism is the last refuge of the bourgeiosie anyway :D)
 
ResistanceMP3 said:
Oh yes, by that measure they are doing very well. But I do have to agree with attica, as well. There is an element of, if this was any other political party voicing its one issue message in the way the BNP is now, given the 12 years of incessant campaigning by the Daily Mail, Tories, and new Labour etc on asylum and immigration, then they would be doing a lot better I think. The fascist history is still a great impediment to the BNP, isn't it?
Click to expand...

hi mate. I agree with much of this post but want to add that as most on the left see the BNP as nazi, the that 10 % of ordinary people should vote for this 'nazi' party is then a disaster, and not in any way to be belittled.

I agree that i think they would do better IF they genuinely could shake off their nazi past ... which is why it remains important to bring it up amongst a more general campaign.
 
butchersapron said:
What neo-Nazis paramilitary organising? It's not the 1930s, nor is it the 1970s. Electoral success has totally blown away any organised street based activity for the forseeable future - it's just not on the cards apart from a few loose canons. Trotsky's analysis appllied to the specific conditions of the time in which he was writing, conditions that no longer exist and that aren't coming back any time soon. The map needs changing -the BNP have managed to recognise this and have had some meaure of success with it. It's time the left did likewise.

In todays conditions the danger isn't the system suffering collapse through class struggle and capital turning to fascists in their hour of need (and that's not only the oudated map that some on the left use but the BNPs too), but the far-right making the class struggle that much harder by coloninsing the political space of the working class. That's the danger, not concentration camps, not jackboots on the champs elysee but racialisation of social issues and this then becoming th default start point for independent woking class politics.

)
Click to expand...
Mimicking the Front Nationale means the BNP have turned away from paramilitary organising. This was a pre-requisite of the electoral success, not a result of. So my question was, h as the turning away from Parliamentary organising weakened the future prospects long-term?
I understand your answer to this question comes from your anarchist politics yes? It isn’t a matter that revolution is ‘outdated’, you don’t believe in revolution, surely?is it also the case you don’t believe that capitalism could lead to “the common ruin of the contending classes”?
I’m not sure whether you are giving the BNP too much credit. I am led to believe from what I’ve read from Griffin and others they still, like the other fascists, believe the BNP cannot achieve power. That what the BNP is doing now is just building to be powerful enough at the time of “the coming Civil War”. This does still seem to be the strategy of the hardcore.
(marxism is the last refuge of the bourgeiosie anyway :D
Click to expand...
I didn't know you subscribe to the illuminati theory.:D
 
ResistanceMP3 said:
Mimicking the Front Nationale means the BNP have turned away from paramilitary organising. This was a pre-requisite of the electoral success, not a result of. So my question was, h as the turning away from Parliamentary organising weakened the future prospects long-term?
I understand your answer to this question comes from your anarchist politics yes? It isn’t a matter that revolution is ‘outdated’, you don’t believe in revolution, surely?is it also the case you don’t believe that capitalism could lead to “the common ruin of the contending classes”?
I’m not sure whether you are giving the BNP too much credit. I am led to believe from what I’ve read from Griffin and others they still, like the other fascists, believe the BNP cannot achieve power. That what the BNP is doing now is just building to be powerful enough at the time of “the coming Civil War”. This does still seem to be the strategy of the hardcore.
I didn't know you subscribe to the illuminati theory.:D
Click to expand...

It might well have been a pre-requisite, the results have now put if off the agenda for the forseeable future. That's my point.

The next question, they have no prospects of taking power, they have the chance to get some influence and that's it - but criucailly in area trhat we need to win and get influence in ourselves. They're well on the way to doing that. If you measure their succes by achieving power you're using the wrong scale and will get the wrong answer back. Don't measure it by 100% meaure it by 15-25%.

Not sure what you mean by the next bit about revolution and the manifesto, so i'll leavr it for you clarify/expand...

That's a Paul Mattick allusion by the way, nothing conspiracy-loon about me ;)
 
durruti02 said:
hi mate. I agree with much of this post but want to add that as most on the left see the BNP as nazi, the that 10 % of ordinary people should vote for this 'nazi' party is then a disaster, and not in any way to be belittled.

I agree that i think they would do better IF they genuinely could shake off their nazi past ... which is why it remains important to bring it up amongst a more general campaign.
Click to expand...
hi dur
Sorry, I wasn’t intending to appear like I was belittling the threat of a fascist parties. I just think some people on here over exaggerate.what butchers said was fair, they are doing well compared to 20 years ago. But if you over indulge in this and say they are doing well period, then you can appear to be shouting Woolf. All parties to the right of the Conservative Party have what? About 100 councillors out of 10,000? This is a problem, but it isn’t an insurmountable problem for the working class. And comparatively are they doing as well As Front Nationale? The working class there has shown that they can deal with a far more entrenched fascist threat.

On the issue of people voting BNP. I’m not saying you’re saying this, but just to be clear, I do not think the 10% who voted BNP are fascist. Something like 90% of the BNP voters I have spoken to refuse to believe the BNP are fascist,or recognize they are fascist and only vote for them as a protest vote, and say if they did believe the BNP were fascist or posed a real threat, they wouldn’t vote for them.
 
ResistanceMP3 said:
hi dur
Sorry, I wasn’t intending to appear like I was belittling the threat of a fascist parties. I just think some people on here over exaggerate.what butchers said was fair, they are doing well compared to 20 years ago. But if you over indulge in this and say they are doing well period, then you can appear to be shouting Woolf. All parties to the right of the Conservative Party have what? About 100 councillors out of 10,000? This is a problem, but it isn’t an insurmountable problem for the working class. And comparatively are they doing as well As Front Nationale? The working class there has shown that they can deal with a far more entrenched fascist threat.

On the issue of people voting BNP. I’m not saying you’re saying this, but just to be clear, I do not think the 10% who voted BNP are fascist. Something like 90% of the BNP voters I have spoken to refuse to believe the BNP are fascist,or recognize they are fascist and only vote for them as a protest vote, and say if they did believe the BNP were fascist or posed a real threat, they wouldn’t vote for them.
Click to expand...

Fair play mate

2 points

1) yes we should not overplay but what IS significant is that it appears that where the BNP are winning is precisely where WE should be winnning. That if you strip out died in the wool tories / labour etc etc then those 15%s the BNP are getting becomes a larger figure

2) the issue for voters NOT seeing them as fascist is also a problem when most of those people will have seen a leaflet from UAF/ANL etc, probably with a pic of Tyndal as nazi, and detailing the nazi past of many BNP, and YET people do not accept they are fascist. What I worry is that people will get drawn into genuine fascism thru the bnp.
 
butchersapron said:
It might well have been a pre-requisite, the results have now put if off the agenda for the forseeable future. That's my point.
Click to expand...
yes you are right, it is off the agenda for the foreseeable future, but how far is the foreseeable future? History shows the speed at which things can change can leave your head reeling. Lenin said there would never be a revolution in his lifetime, but only fools make predictions!:eek: :D

The next question, they have no prospects of taking power, they have the chance to get some influence and that's it - but criucailly in area trhat we need to win and get influence in ourselves. They're well on the way to doing that. If you measure their succes by achieving power you're using the wrong scale and will get the wrong answer back. Don't measure it by 100% meaure it by 15-25%.
Click to expand...
I know what you're getting at, and I agree. I don't know anyone in SW who would be happy with them making headway in working class areas. However, there is still much debate about this, where they making headway. And secondly, central contradictions in their politics make it very easy for any upsurge in working-class struggle to marginalise the fascist from working-class areas. I don't think there is any getting away from the fact that it is almost 30 years of British working-class defeat, and the low level of struggle, that is the prime concern when fighting the fascist. What can revolutionaries do about this? http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...rike_looms_to_defend_nurse_who_spoke_out.html

Not sure what you mean by the next bit about revolution and the manifesto, so i'll leavr it for you clarify/expand...

That's a Paul Mattick allusion by the way, nothing conspiracy-loon about me ;)
Click to expand...
Well I'm not to sure about that.;) my questions about anarchism and revolution etc don't make sense. Probably because I do find the contradictions I see in anarchism as irrational, looney. But hey, you've probably find my entrenched position looney, liberal, or a state plot.:D
Click to expand...
 
Nick Griffin On Larry O'Hara

From the latest BNP chairmans blog:eek:

A copy of the latest ‘Notes From the Borderland’ arrives through the post. This is roughly an annual magazine, produced by a hardcore, but generally honest (though often confused!) leftist/green named Larry O’Hara. A good two-thirds of it is always taken up with the left-wing version of conspiracy mania (everything’s the work of CIA and MI5 spooks) but the rest contains a few good points.

O’Hara regards himself as diametrically opposed to the BNP, though the truth is that if he only work out that mass immigration is more than anything else a capitalist ‘conspiracy’ to import cheap labour and extra consumers, he’d actually make quite a useful recruit.

I am reliably informed that he is an avid reader of my articles, and he has certainly taken careful note of what is being written and done within the BNP to move it from being a one-man dictatorship into a cadre-based movement. As he writes:

“Creating ideologically committed BNP members, thereby guarding against swamping by Tory populists, is behind the recent changes in BNP membership structure. Griffin doesn’t want a party full of Tory populists because BNP strategy is predicated on seizing opportunities that may be provided by economic and social collapse, prior to which organisational cohesion is more important than popular support. If such integrity is not maintained then the ‘unique selling point’ distinguishing the BNP from right-wing Tories will have collapsed. While Griffin’s critics on the right think this has already happened, as somebody who has been following his career for 25 years I can assure you it hasn’t.”

Indeed! And what neither he nor anyone else has been told up until now is that the move to put the party in the hands of a Voting Membership activist elite is only just beginning, and due to take several steps further forward this Autumn. The next stage will be centred on three points:....
 
Griffin admits on his blog that he was in a punch up causing sore knuckles "two weeks ago in Sussex", the post was dated 14th March. So does anybody know to what this refers?

I think I will start a fund you can donate too. I will regularly update the amount publically as it gets ever higher.

The WINNER gets whatever has been collected by the point in time the twatting occurs, the money goes to whoever (with proof) twats Nick Griffin:cool: :D What d'ya think?
 
Attica said:
From the latest BNP chairmans blog:eek:

A copy of the latest ‘Notes From the Borderland’ arrives through the post. This is roughly an annual magazine, produced by a hardcore, but generally honest (though often confused!) leftist/green named Larry O’Hara. A good two-thirds of it is always taken up with the left-wing version of conspiracy mania (everything’s the work of CIA and MI5 spooks) but the rest contains a few good points.

O’Hara regards himself as diametrically opposed to the BNP, though the truth is that if he only work out that mass immigration is more than anything else a capitalist ‘conspiracy’ to import cheap labour and extra consumers, he’d actually make quite a useful recruit.

I am reliably informed that he is an avid reader of my articles, and he has certainly taken careful note of what is being written and done within the BNP to move it from being a one-man dictatorship into a cadre-based movement. As he writes:

“Creating ideologically committed BNP members, thereby guarding against swamping by Tory populists, is behind the recent changes in BNP membership structure. Griffin doesn’t want a party full of Tory populists because BNP strategy is predicated on seizing opportunities that may be provided by economic and social collapse, prior to which organisational cohesion is more important than popular support. If such integrity is not maintained then the ‘unique selling point’ distinguishing the BNP from right-wing Tories will have collapsed. While Griffin’s critics on the right think this has already happened, as somebody who has been following his career for 25 years I can assure you it hasn’t.”

Indeed! And what neither he nor anyone else has been told up until now is that the move to put the party in the hands of a Voting Membership activist elite is only just beginning, and due to take several steps further forward this Autumn. The next stage will be centred on three points:....
Click to expand...

Why should this quote surprise you? As a politician Griffin is using an external source to try & win an internal BNP argument, and along the way making a mischievous point concerning a long-term opponent like myself. Neither Griffin (or you) quotes what I said elsewhere on the Notes From the Borderland page (p.17/issue 8) that the Griffin regime "combines electoral populism with post-modern neo-fascism" and that he wants to "recruit and retain members...in part among the ranks of hardened fascists", or indeed my statement next page that "while BNP strategy cannot be reduced to thuggery, the gravitational pull towards Redwatch that affects key members is no accident" (p.18). Nor indeed did Griffin quote the rather damning (for the BNP among others) update article on the Lecomber murder plot (p.3-4), stating inter alia that Griffin's reaction to a recent assault by Lecomber on Eddie Butler was "so weak it makes you wonder what hold Lecomber has on Griffin" (p.4). But, hey, what do I know? :D :D :p
 
Attica said:
Griffin admits on his blog that he was in a punch up causing sore knuckles "two weeks ago in Sussex", the post was dated 14th March. So does anybody know to what this refers?
Click to expand...

Yes ;)

I think I will start a fund you can donate too. I will regularly update the amount publically as it gets ever higher.

The WINNER gets whatever has been collected by the point in time the twatting occurs, the money goes to whoever (with proof) twats Nick Griffin:cool: :D What d'ya think?
Click to expand...

I think that to advocate on a public bulletin-board that you will pay money to third parties to beat anyone up, even a fascist, is, shall we say, unwise, on a number of levels.
 
Larry O'Hara said:
Why should this quote surprise you? As a politician Griffin is using an external source to try & win an internal BNP argument, and along the way making a mischievous point concerning a long-term opponent like myself. Neither Griffin (or you) quotes what I said elsewhere on the Notes From the Borderland page (p.17/issue 8) that the Griffin regime "combines electoral populism with post-modern neo-fascism" and that he wants to "recruit and retain members...in part among the ranks of hardened fascists", or indeed my statement next page that "while BNP strategy cannot be reduced to thuggery, the gravitational pull towards Redwatch that affects key members is no accident" (p.18). Nor indeed did Griffin quote the rather damning (for the BNP among others) update article on the Lecomber murder plot (p.3-4), stating inter alia that Griffin's reaction to a recent assault by Lecomber on Eddie Butler was "so weak it makes you wonder what hold Lecomber has on Griffin" (p.4). But, hey, what do I know? :D :D :p
Click to expand...

I was surprised that you had not quoted Griffin publicly.

I haven't quoted what else you have said (so far) because I haven't found it necessary.
 
Larry O'Hara said:
A) Yes ;)

B) I think that to advocate on a public bulletin-board that you will pay money to third parties to beat anyone up, even a fascist, is, shall we say, unwise, on a number of levels.
Click to expand...

A) DO tell then, or is it in the latest issue of Borderland and you want us to pay for it?

B) "I think I will start a fund" does not mean that I have done it or will do it.
I think it is unwise to say something about something which doesn't exist.:p
 
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