Griffin and BNP strategy

[butchersapron]

This is still head in the sand stuff as reagrds the BNP. Around 10% in the only nationally visible elction of the day which all the mainstream parties piled resources and energy into is a good enough result, especialy when placed alongside them seeming to finally be getting on top of the UKIP vote which has been a stubborn stumbling block for them for some time.

How on earth, after your trumpeting of the left and playing down the BNP vote can you then go onto say that the independent is the real succes story only half of the BNP vote! It's madness. Everything that you say about the BNP vote applies even more so to the indepenednent (i'd be interested in what his platform was) and these people do tend to be attached to a very specific single campaign then dissapear. The BNP can translate 10% in one constituency into a number of council seats with a bit of dedicated work - and they will, imagine the propoganda bonus of getting an elected counillor in Blairs old ward.

Time to start facing what these figues mean - an analysis based on there always being a a resevoir of far-right voters that hadn't previoulsy been tapped shouldn't comfort you but instead give you pause to thought and realise that if you're correct then these people are now starting to be tapped, starting to come out to vote and maybe get involved on an orgnaisational level - it's a sign that the dynamic is with them. It's bad, not good.

 

[butchersapron]

The independent seems to be a law-and-order type, shopkeeper, magistrate, pro-business etc

http://tinyurl.com/yuykbr

 

[The Black Hand]

This is still head in the sand stuff as reagrds the BNP. Around 10% in the only nationally visible elction of the day which all the mainstream parties piled resources and energy into is a good enough result, especialy when placed alongside them seeming to finally be getting on top of the UKIP vote which has been a stubborn stumbling block for them for some time.

How on earth, after your trumpeting of the left and playing down the BNP vote can you then go onto say that the independent is the real succes story only half of the BNP vote! It's madness. Everything that you say about the BNP vote applies even more so to the indepenednent (i'd be interested in what his platform was) and these people do tend to be attached to a very specific single campaign then dissapear. The BNP can translate 10% in one constituency into a number of council seats with a bit of dedicated work - and they will, imagine the propoganda bonus of getting an elected counillor in Blairs old ward.

Time to start facing what these figues mean - an analysis based on there always being a a resevoir of far-right voters that hadn't previoulsy been tapped shouldn't comfort you but instead give you pause to thought and realise that if you're correct then these people are now starting to be tapped, starting to come out to vote and maybe get involved on an orgnaisational level - it's a sign that the dynamic is with them. It's bad, not good.

Yes, its an OK result for the BNP, but the Independent is still the days winner. Its madness to deny that - Look at the result closely;

BNP 2,494
Ind 1,885

Far from being half of the BNP vote, it is in fact 75.6% of the BNP vote - i did the maths. Given that the Independent does not have the national recognition that the BNP has, could not draw on activists and money from outside the region, the independent has done spectacularly well.

As for them getting a council seat, perhaps the odd one, but again its nothing to get excited about. They've already got some of those in other places and the sky hasn't collapsed.

In one area of that constituency there is already an independent force in Newton Aycliffe with councillors.

Regarding your last paragraph, they have already been tapping the far right reservoir, which is leading to their current level of vote. As I said the first real qualitative test of Griffins leadership skillls is to take the BNP beyond the current level, and onto the next level of votes/councillors. That is going to be far harder for them too achieve. Unfortunatley for them, their first wave peak is at such a level for them to wake up everybody else to move against them. Which is one of the reasons why their next real test is whether they can achieve an 'even more worrying' level of success, beyond the current one, in which they are currently trapped...

 

[butchersapron]

Yes, its an OK result for the BNP, but the Independent is still the days winner. Its madness to deny that - Look at the result closely;

BNP 2,494
Ind 1,885

Far from being half of the BNP vote, it is in fact 75.6% of the BNP vote - i did the maths. Given that the Independent does not have the national recognition that the BNP has, could not draw on activists and money from outside the region, the independent has done spectacularly well.

As for them getting a council seat, perhaps the odd one, but again its nothing to get excited about. They've already got some of those in other places and the sky hasn't collapsed.

In one area of that constituency there is already an independent force in Newton Aycliffe with councillors.

Regarding your last paragraph, they have already been tapping the far right reservoir, which is leading to their current level of vote. As I said the first real qualitative test of Griffins leadership skillls is to take the BNP beyond the current level, and onto the next level of votes/councillors. That is going to be far harder for them too achieve. Unfortunatley for them, their first wave peak is at such a level for them to wake up everybody else to move against them. Which is one of the reasons why their next real test is whether they can achieve an 'even more worrying' level of success, beyond the current one, in which they are currently trapped...

Saving a deposoit is a good start sure, but there 2 other things - firstly, all the other independent candidates stood down in favour of him and asked their supporters to vote or him. That's not something thta happens all the time and not something that is likley to happen again, it was a result of it being an election with a national foucs due to it being Bair's seat. That's gone now. And secondly, his politics - magistrate, small businessman, where do you think he's coming from? The left?

They're not 'trapped' they're easily enough picking up good results nationally, they're laying the organisational basis for a more sustained and widespread challenge and with each set of elections or by-election that they perform well in they are steadily normalisng a vote for the BNP.

 

[The Black Hand]

Saving a deposoit is a good start sure, but there 2 other things - firstly, all the other independent candidates stood down in favour of him and asked their supporters to vote or him. That's not something thta happens all the time and not something that is likley to happen again, it was a result of it being an election with a national foucs due to it being Bair's seat. That's gone now. And secondly, his politics - magistrate, small businessman, where do you think he's coming from? The left?

They're not 'trapped' they're easily enough picking up good results nationally, they're laying the organisational basis for a more sustained and widespread challenge and with each set of elections or by-election that they perform well in they are steadily normalisng a vote for the BNP.

I am not bothered about his politics - I was being realistic in the assesment of 'who won' the election.

We differ in opinion then, I say they are trapped at the current level. I agree this does mean that the BNP is capable of organisational growth, and leads towards a steady normalising. But so what? Perhaps AFA would have been better if they smacked them around for a few more years rather than change their politics That way it might have prevented what we have now Seriously harming Griffin today though would be good news Perhaps at the next election

Is your analysis that this 'creeping creepy BNP' vote widening going to lead to what sort of situation? At the minute the Left is not prevented from doing anything, it has only itself to blame. But especially the far left and hippies who left the long term apolitical British atmosphere intact. From this position of historical weakness ultra left strategies (local or other) are not the way forward.

 

[butchersapron]

I am not bothered about his politics - I was being realistic in the assesment of 'who won' the election.

We differ in opinion then, I say they are trapped at the current level. I agree this does mean that the BNP is capable of organisational growth, and leads towards a steady normalising. But so what? Perhaps AFA would have been better if they smacked them around for a few more years rather than change their politics That way it might have prevented what we have now Seriously harming Griffin today though would be good news Perhaps at the next election

Is your analysis that this 'creeping creepy BNP' vote widening going to lead to what sort of situation? At the minute the Left is not prevented from doing anything, it has only itself to blame. But especially the far left and hippies who left the long term apolitical British atmosphere intact. From this position of historical weakness ultra left strategies (local or other) are not the way forward.

Well any serious assesment has to take into account his politics, you can't ignore politics. You can't point to his result as a success if he's coming from the right, esp when the left was not only unable to take advantage of any anti-mainstream parties sentiment that there may be, but were unable to even rustle up a candidate - with a BNP circa 10% (plus potential UKIP voters switching at a later date, not to mention the independent voters) that again, is not a sign of health.

It's actually a sign of what i think the BNP vote means - it means that they are much further down the road of colonising the anti-mainstream parties population's vote, thereby blocking the development of an independent working class politics - their approach is the one that is being normalised nationally at the minute, the racialisation of social issues, the looking at socila issues in terms of race rather than class.

Each step thay take forwards knocks the 'left' (for want of a better term) backwards - they're not running on seperate tracks unaffecting each other, they're on the one track - why you can't see these steps forward i don't know. These people aren't 'human dust' - they're out there today, insinuating themselves and their politics in our comminoities, basing themselves on our social needs (but twiating them) and are picking up historically unprecedented results.

 

[The Black Hand]

Well any serious assesment has to take into account his politics, you can't ignore politics. You can't point to his result as a success if he's coming from the right, esp when the left was not only unable to take advantage of any anti-mainstream parties sentiment that there may be, but were unable to even rustle up a candidate - with a BNP circa 10% (plus potential UKIP voters switching at a later date, not to mention the independent voters) that again, is not a sign of health.

It's actually a sign of what i think the BNP vote means - it means that they are much further down the road of colonising the anti-mainstream parties population's vote, thereby blocking the development of an independent working class politics - their approach is the one that is being normalised nationally at the minute, the racialisation of social issues, the looking at socila issues in terms of race rather than class.

Each step thay take forwards knocks the 'left' (for want of a better term) backwards - they're not running on seperate tracks unaffecting each other, they're on the one track - why you can't see these steps forward i don't know. These people aren't 'human dust' - they're out there today, insinuating themselves and their politics in our comminoities, basing themselves on our social needs (but twiating them) and are picking up historically unprecedented results.

You can ignore his poilitics - its called abstraction - a standard Marxist method of analysis.

I see your pov, I understand its analysis and concerns. I just am not concerned to the degree that you think I should be.

I disagree with the way it has been presented by and large, and I have already said that ultra leftism is not the answer. 'Ultra leftism' is a generic term which has several different forms - one of which is 'parochial purist localist' which is reactionary.

The answer I think must be wider than a concentration on the BNP, and involve other sections of the working class.

 

[durruti02]

Well any serious assesment has to take into account his politics, you can't ignore politics. You can't point to his result as a success if he's coming from the right, esp when the left was not only unable to take advantage of any anti-mainstream parties sentiment that there may be, but were unable to even rustle up a candidate - with a BNP circa 10% (plus potential UKIP voters switching at a later date, not to mention the independent voters) that again, is not a sign of health.

It's actually a sign of what i think the BNP vote means - it means that they are much further down the road of colonising the anti-mainstream parties population's vote, thereby blocking the development of an independent working class politics - their approach is the one that is being normalised nationally at the minute, the racialisation of social issues, the looking at socila issues in terms of race rather than class.

Each step thay take forwards knocks the 'left' (for want of a better term) backwards - they're not running on seperate tracks unaffecting each other, they're on the one track - why you can't see these steps forward i don't know. These people aren't 'human dust' - they're out there today, insinuating themselves and their politics in our comminoities, basing themselves on our social needs (but twiating them) and are picking up historically unprecedented results.

excellently argued post i think

 

[durruti02]

The answer I think must be wider than a concentration on the BNP, and involve other sections of the working class.

do you really think i or jim page or torres disagrees with this? please do not confuse with volume of debate versus peoples actual activity.

 

[The Black Hand]

do you really think i or jim page or torres disagrees with this? please do not confuse with volume of debate versus peoples actual activity.

Perhaps.

Here are some culled figures from the June 2007 BNP paper on the situation in Rotherham;

Total Rotherham votes May 2007

The votes cast across the six
wards contested by the BNP
were as follows:
Labour ...................... 7,298
BNP .......................... 4,683
Conservative ............. 3,385
Lib-Dem .................... 1,841
Independent ............. 913

Clearly this is an urgent problem which goes beyond group politics, and I know there are good lefties in that area (went to a do May 2006 with a few). What they think though I do not know.

 

[The Black Hand]

Perhaps our posters here had better stop fecking around and have a look at other forums- look at this thread;

http://www.thesun.co.uk/discussions/posts/list/18619.page

500 ish comments and an open BNP member/poster not getting enough flak...

 

[JHE]

Best tell 'em about praxis.

 

[The Black Hand]

Best tell 'em about praxis.

At the minute there's 5 thread titles with BNP in them on the Sun news forum.

 

[JHE]

At the minute there's 5 thread titles with BNP in them on the Sun news forum.

Start six threads with 'praxis', 'revolution', 'Class War' or 'anarchism' in the title. That'll show 'em.

 

[The Black Hand]

Start six threads with 'praxis', 'revolution', 'Class War' or 'anarchism' in the title. That'll show 'em.

You're the man that talks about them all the time - you had better do it.

 

[JHE]

I'm going to start a thread there about liberated foxes attacking parking meters and, since it's the Sun, another about a topless international brigade of whoaaaar-worthy lovelies.

 

[The Black Hand]

I'm going to start a thread there about liberated foxes attacking parking meters and, since it's the Sun, another about a topless international brigade of whoaaaar-worthy lovelies.

Well I've had a dabble and I think have done very well against them... Your turn now JHE, really....

 

[JimPage]

and the other fallout from Sedgefield for the BNP has been pressure from inside the tories to stop the centrist drift with Cameron, and significant grumblings amoung UKIP/EDP types as to their poor result-and the BNP result being remarked upon by right leaning papers like the Mail and Telegraph

 

[The Black Hand]

Is this story true?

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2007/07/377256.html

If it is, it is good news for anti fascists i think...

 

[butchersapron]

BNP leadership election result:

Nick Griffin: 3363 (91%)
Chris Jackson: 337 (9%)

Turnout 43%

http://www.****bnp.org.uk/news_detail.php?newsId=1635

A result which means, if correct, they have around 8000 members in good standing. Larger than all the left parties put togther.

 

[The Black Hand]

BNP leadership election result:

Nick Griffin: 3363 (91%)
Chris Jackson: 337 (9%)

Turnout 43%

http://www.****bnp.org.uk/news_detail.php?newsId=1635

A result which means, if correct, they have around 8000 members in good standing. Larger than all the left parties put togther.

7400 to be precise. But here quality not quantity is important i think whoops fucked up on the maths...

Anyway I was on about their 'night of the long knives' - anti democratic purging - which has led one of them at least to go public...

 

[The Black Hand]

I think that gives 8604 paid up members if my maths is right - somebody pls check.

 

[JHE]

Yes, right on the second attempt, Attica: 8604 or 8605

The other thing, though, is that 57% of the members couldn't be bothered to vote in a leadership contest.

 

[butchersapron]

Yes, right on the second attempt, Attica: 8604 or 8605

The other thing, though, is that 57% of the members couldn't be bothered to vote in a leadership contest.

I think a large chunk of that might reasonably be out down to it being a forgeone conclusion...

 

[JimPage]

I think a large chunk of that might reasonably be out down to it being a forgeone conclusion...

and that Jackson was offerring little more than to take the BNP back to 1997 in ideological terms. basically, he offerred such a hardlinE point of view most BNP rank and file rejected him

 

[durruti02]

Perhaps.

Here are some culled figures from the June 2007 BNP paper on the situation in Rotherham;

Total Rotherham votes May 2007

The votes cast across the six
wards contested by the BNP
were as follows:
Labour ...................... 7,298
BNP .......................... 4,683
Conservative ............. 3,385
Lib-Dem .................... 1,841
Independent ............. 913

Clearly this is an urgent problem which goes beyond group politics, and I know there are good lefties in that area (went to a do May 2006 with a few). What they think though I do not know.

attica mate i and others have been telling you about yorks for ages!! ..

 

[audiotech]

I think that gives 8604 paid up members if my maths is right - somebody pls check.

I've read somewhere it's nearer 5,000.

I will seek to have police action carried out against this vile Internet site, but I also intend to resign as cultural officer, advisory council member and member of the BNP. I do not wish to associate-even tangentially-with such low-grade lycanthropes and psychotic criminals. Williams, I gather, is a convicted drug dealer and career criminal with a string of convictions.

I have many other and better things to do with my life in future.

The stench of this rabble, lumpen and canaille is displeasing to me. I shall devote myself to the world of the arts from which I originate and to which I shall return.

Yours ever
Jonathan Bowden'

Strong words indeed. The affect of this is bad news for the BNP's activist base. As a commentator on the UAF blog notes: "...other ex-Tory rightwingers might be nervously wondering what they've got themselves into?"

 

[butchersapron]

Perhaps.

Here are some culled figures from the June 2007 BNP paper on the situation in Rotherham;

Total Rotherham votes May 2007

The votes cast across the six
wards contested by the BNP
were as follows:
Labour ...................... 7,298
BNP .......................... 4,683
Conservative ............. 3,385
Lib-Dem .................... 1,841
Independent ............. 913

Clearly this is an urgent problem which goes beyond group politics, and I know there are good lefties in that area (went to a do May 2006 with a few). What they think though I do not know.

This was followed up with another 19% vote there the week before last in a local by-election.

 

[The Black Hand]

Yes, right on the second attempt, Attica: 8604 or 8605

The other thing, though, is that 57% of the members couldn't be bothered to vote in a leadership contest.

Yes I have to agree - that does show that they perhaps are not as good as they pretend, but also some of it must be put down to Butchers point.

 

[The Black Hand]

attica mate i and others have been telling you about yorks for ages!! ..

Yes, but there's huge differences in fortunes even in Yorkshire.Take the city of Sheffield (or York), right next door to Rotherham, they could only muster 7 candidates and did badly. In Rotherham, (apart from Barnsley), it looks like they have hit critical mass, and I didn't realise they were doing well there.

My point was that urgent action is required in Rotherham (and Barnsley) that goes beyond group boundaries and 'political lines'. In those areas it is no longer good enough to abstain from whatever opposition can be found, even if you disagree with it. In short, a bigger anything is better than nothing.

Those of us without such pressure may able to argue finer points, but in those areas the days of ultra leftism are over.