Griffin and BNP strategy
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ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Show me where anarchists acted like the KPD.
Me, I'm stuck on trying to work out how people who aren't members of a single political party can act like members of a single political party.
Oh, and anarchists not blindly supporting UAF and HnH doesn't make us "the KPD", if that's what you're talking about.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Interesting article on Eddy Butlers blog which sets out a potential direction for the far right based on 'ethno' nationalism. Completely rules out any notion of the rumoured/wished for but never seen 'return to the streets'.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
He's trying to play the "anarchists didn't blindly back UAF/HnH's line on the BNP, therefore they're no better than the KPD, who stood by and let the Nazis rise to power" card.
Because UK anarchists, like the KPD did, get a million-plus votes in every elec....oh hold on. UK anarchists, having a homogeneous membership all signed up to a membership charter, all agr....nope, that's not right either, is it?
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Didn't the British far-right already flirt with all this back in the '90s and then discard it because they couldn't make it work in the way their US and Russian brethren can?
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Its europe where Butler is making the connection. he is saying a number of things , first of all that the BNP is too toxic in its present form, in both its reputation ( down to griffin) and its ideology which is too 'white' based. He wants something more like Euro nationalism.It could be possible as the 'modernised' membership is neo nazi light.
It dovetails in with mathew goodwins conclusion which is that the BNP in its current racial nationalism ideology cannot grow, demographics are against it and its supporter base is too old, but that there is space for a revival of nationalism.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Hmm, they did try to accommodate the ideas around Euro-nationalism and the European new right before. Watching the BNP hierarchy try to help the membership get to grips with de Benoist and Evola was one of the more entertaining sagas of the 1990s.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
given other studies of the bnp's support it's no great surprise that goodwin concurs their supporter base is too old. however, that's not to say that racial nationalism cannot grow: the limits on its expression through the ballot box have been largely down to internal issues in the bnp, such as the lack of credible candidates as well as the limited distribution of the party throughout the country. so, they haven't been able to field candidates all over the country, and local party support for them has been variable.
i'd say there's the possibility of a 20% poll nationwide - but not much more - for a racial nationalist party of the bnp's style. however, this could increase with repackaging or decrease due to demographics.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Don't disagree with this.The issue of whether he far right can grow though is whether or not it is fit for purpose. The argument is simply can racial nationalism do this or a milder form of ethno nationalism or culturalist nationalism. In other words if you took the EDLs 'we are not racist' cocktail without the street element and applied it to the BNP experience of how to fight elections and build locally then we would have formidable rivals for working class support.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
only if you took the whole out of the hands of the edl's current personnel and put it in the charge of people who could string a sentence together without coming across as thick, ignorant wankers. the intellectual basis for edl (and much of the bnp's) politics is weak, to say the least. their attempts to source credible authorities for their views often relies on obscure and outdated (and foreign!) books, which shouldn't convince a six year-old, let alone grown men and women.
Griffin apparently lives amongst a different ethnic group to his own - how weird is that ?
His children have all learned to speak a different language to his own, how ironic it would be if protesters appeared outside his gate with placards saying, Griffin should be sent back to Moenchengladbach or wherever Germanic types originate from.
Life is full of anomalies.
His children have all learned to speak a different language to his own, how ironic it would be if protesters appeared outside his gate with placards saying, Griffin should be sent back to Moenchengladbach or wherever Germanic types originate from.
Life is full of anomalies.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Yes I agree with the your first sentence, that is pretty much where I was heading. Not sure of the second though re the relevance of percieved intellectual basis for the BNPs politics.What they do offer is a range of policies far wider than just race hatred which are attractive to a wider proportion of the public than their actual vote.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
The Welsh along with the Scots and irsih are considered by the BNP to be pasrt of the same ethnic family.
SpineyNorman
Inappropriate content removed
Can anyone tell me what the difference between ethno-nationalism and racial nationalism is? (If there is one that is - they sound like two different words for the same thing but the way I've seen them used recently suggests there may be a difference, however slight)
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
In my view its the shift from (racial nationalism) being anti black per se and championing being white with being anti immigration and championing being British ( ethno nationalism). Griffins admission that compulsory repatriation would never in fact take place and that there is nothing wrong with a bit of salt in the soup analogy and then his ‘a bit of immigration is better than none at all’. marks that step change.It was this sort of line that Griffin and his supporters modernised the BNP with as against the Tyndalites for whom being black meant to be superior full stop.
I think this also shifts into cultural nationalism and the 'they are destroying our culture' rather than simply 'we don't like paki's'.
SpineyNorman
Inappropriate content removed
Thanks, that makes sense. I've noticed over the last 10 years or so that they've stopped talking about superiority and theories of racial hierarchy and talking instead about the preservation of racial and cultural differences, is that the kind of thing you're talking about? There was a really good piece on the IWCA website about a year ago about how state multiculturalism has played right into their hands in this regard.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Yes, and Butler's piece on his blog is quite a plausible arguement about how nationalism could be taken further and away from being tainted with racial nationalism and obsolete Nazism
love detective
there's no love too small
It's a fairly remarkable achievement in terms of what's been done so far in terms of bringing far right politics in from the cold - and with the scope & backdrop to do much more ahead, it throws into sharp relief the left's utter failure to do anything even approaching this from the other side.
The question posed in the final chapter of Beating the Fascists, remains:-
Thats a bit rich on Griffins part is it not ? {not disagreeing just saying its a bit rich on Griffin's part}
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Thought this papar in Mathew Goodwin's blog had a lot of truth in it:
TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
lol,,
you're right, it is a strawman question, intentionally, because it WAS intended to highlight there is no anarchists MASS antifascist strategy, just like there was no KPD MASS antifascist strategy. Furthermore, You can never get two anarchists to agree, but there are some anarchists who argue like the KPD, you shouldn't try to build a mass antifascist opposition, you should concentrate on building an alternative to fascism. However, the similarities of the anarchist's to the KPD are only in the rhetoric, for while the KPD had a real alternative and a tangible effect in German politics, the uk anarchists have no alternative to fascism as they have no registrable effect you can point to in British politics.
MellySingsDoom
Decimated by the shrapnel of his rhetoric
Thread bump here, due to a posting I spotted on the Hope Not Hate blog, regarding an BBC documetary about to air, with an "exclusive" about the BNP's financial doings: http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/blog/article/1398/the-clock-is-ticking
Of course, Hope Not Hate/Nick Lowles will know that this so-called exposé has been common knowledge on both the "nationalist" and anti-fascist side for a very long while now, so why he's touting this as being some sort of bombshell I've no idea (well, actually I do, but let's put the "Searchlight agenda" whatnots to one side for just a second). In fact, if Lowles should acknowledge anyone on this, it's various disaffected "nationalists" who've falled foul of Mr Griffin and his cabal, and consistently dished out the details on the money shenanigans, often in the face of abusive howling from the Griffinites. Sharon Ebanks, a woman not known for her natural empathy and pleasantness, was particularly active in demolishing Griffin and Co's blather on that score - she did all her washing on the British "Democracy" Forum, and would constantly given documented proof of where the money was really going (ie not to the creditors!). Also assisting her in this was Mr Nice Guy himself, Eddy Butler, leading to the likes of the Green Arrow shouting on his blog to his followers (all 5 of them) about Butler's "treachery" to the Great One, and accusations at one point of Ebanks having an affair with Butler! And if I really have to give a "nationalist" any due at all (ugh!), it's Ebanks' tenacity in the face of often virulently racist taunts and abuse (her father is not of "pure Aryan stock", so they say).
Anyhow, this stuff has been discussed all over the shop (not least on here), and the demise of the BNP has been predicted so many times (esp. on the Lancaster Unity site), it's almost like an anti-fascist version of Groundhog Day. Also, the whole thing of "financial/legal anti-fascism" has been rightly pulled up on Urban as being too "state"-heavy and really not dealing with the roots and causes of fascism, and it certainly does nothing to deal with those working class communities where fascism and racism are given a political and electoral voice. Besides (as has been pointed out here plenty of times), why rely on the mainstream political and legal establishment to fight the BNP's idealogy and tactics, when if anything, they're part of the problem in themselves?
What Lowles also fails to mention is that, even if the BNP do finally get wound up or what have you, there's plenty of other opportunites for "nationalists" to regroup - there's been the entryism into the English Democrats by various ex-BNP members and activists (Eddy Butler - not exactly a savoury proposition himself - has recently joined, and been calling for other disaffected "nationalists" to do the same), and there's of course other groupings such as the British Freedom Party and Britain First in the background. And even the NF (currently all awash at sea after the Eddy Morrison/Tom Linden flounce) could pick up more recruits (and money) should the BNP cease to be. It goes without saying that the likes of the EDL haven't packed it all in yet, either....
And finally, after the furore of the "Secret Agent" documentary (where at least one of the "nationalists" making the most blatant statements turned out to be a Searchlight agent), does the world really need another BNP documentary "mentored" by Searchlight, and which is light on genuine insights and analysis, and heavy on tabloid-style shock-horror moments?
Of course, Hope Not Hate/Nick Lowles will know that this so-called exposé has been common knowledge on both the "nationalist" and anti-fascist side for a very long while now, so why he's touting this as being some sort of bombshell I've no idea (well, actually I do, but let's put the "Searchlight agenda" whatnots to one side for just a second). In fact, if Lowles should acknowledge anyone on this, it's various disaffected "nationalists" who've falled foul of Mr Griffin and his cabal, and consistently dished out the details on the money shenanigans, often in the face of abusive howling from the Griffinites. Sharon Ebanks, a woman not known for her natural empathy and pleasantness, was particularly active in demolishing Griffin and Co's blather on that score - she did all her washing on the British "Democracy" Forum, and would constantly given documented proof of where the money was really going (ie not to the creditors!). Also assisting her in this was Mr Nice Guy himself, Eddy Butler, leading to the likes of the Green Arrow shouting on his blog to his followers (all 5 of them) about Butler's "treachery" to the Great One, and accusations at one point of Ebanks having an affair with Butler! And if I really have to give a "nationalist" any due at all (ugh!), it's Ebanks' tenacity in the face of often virulently racist taunts and abuse (her father is not of "pure Aryan stock", so they say).
Anyhow, this stuff has been discussed all over the shop (not least on here), and the demise of the BNP has been predicted so many times (esp. on the Lancaster Unity site), it's almost like an anti-fascist version of Groundhog Day. Also, the whole thing of "financial/legal anti-fascism" has been rightly pulled up on Urban as being too "state"-heavy and really not dealing with the roots and causes of fascism, and it certainly does nothing to deal with those working class communities where fascism and racism are given a political and electoral voice. Besides (as has been pointed out here plenty of times), why rely on the mainstream political and legal establishment to fight the BNP's idealogy and tactics, when if anything, they're part of the problem in themselves?
What Lowles also fails to mention is that, even if the BNP do finally get wound up or what have you, there's plenty of other opportunites for "nationalists" to regroup - there's been the entryism into the English Democrats by various ex-BNP members and activists (Eddy Butler - not exactly a savoury proposition himself - has recently joined, and been calling for other disaffected "nationalists" to do the same), and there's of course other groupings such as the British Freedom Party and Britain First in the background. And even the NF (currently all awash at sea after the Eddy Morrison/Tom Linden flounce) could pick up more recruits (and money) should the BNP cease to be. It goes without saying that the likes of the EDL haven't packed it all in yet, either....
And finally, after the furore of the "Secret Agent" documentary (where at least one of the "nationalists" making the most blatant statements turned out to be a Searchlight agent), does the world really need another BNP documentary "mentored" by Searchlight, and which is light on genuine insights and analysis, and heavy on tabloid-style shock-horror moments?
audiotech
wav, aiff, mp3, ogg, flac
Author of "Hate" Interviewed.
Street Voice: If times do get more dangerous would there be room for organisations like Anti Fascist Action in today's struggle against the Fascists?
.
http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/news/article/1950/author-of-hate-interviewed
kmarxs&sparks
Member
An interesting idea.
I read a thought elsewhere that could hold some truth.
It was suggested the EDL were set up simply to cause as much trouble as possible but keep the BNP clear of any blame.
The idea, as suggested, was the EDL stir things up, cause as much backlash as they can, thus allowing the BNP to say, "Look how nasty all those foreigners are" but have nothing to do with the violence.
Sounds like that theory may have legs. Opinion?
I read a thought elsewhere that could hold some truth.
It was suggested the EDL were set up simply to cause as much trouble as possible but keep the BNP clear of any blame.
The idea, as suggested, was the EDL stir things up, cause as much backlash as they can, thus allowing the BNP to say, "Look how nasty all those foreigners are" but have nothing to do with the violence.
Sounds like that theory may have legs. Opinion?
We might end up with getting rid of both Cam the Con and Cleggmania and instead get Nick the Griff as our next PM instead of Ed the Red.That should be good for a larf
Joe Reilly
Well-Known Member
Even the UAF were spinning that line, for a while. More likely the EDL was set up as a rival to the BNP to put pressure on the BNP leadership to move back toward the streets by making the rank and file restless. It was not a supplement to the BNP but an alternative. Searchlight promoted them as the 'most dangeorus street presence' since the NF in the 1970's. Which was utter nonsense. And as history shows once Searchlight start promoting an opponent, (Column 88, C18\0 they are doing so only because they or Mi5 have a considerable investment in it.
audiotech
wav, aiff, mp3, ogg, flac
Had me wondering about Lowles departure from editing Searchlight announced in the latest issue, which was late and looked as though it had been rapidly put together, complete with errors. This, with an announcement about a future change in the magazines format, all to do with cost-cutting.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
weird conclusion in Larry's article about the prospect/possibility re a new anti fascist organisation which actually seems to go against the grain of the position that he had two/three years ago
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