Griffin and BNP strategy

[malatesta32]

is this he of liverpool bnp fame?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Male-Nude-P...=sr_1_8?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1320480721&sr=1-8

 

[malatesta32]

weird conclusion in Larry's article about the prospect/possibility re a new anti fascist organisation which actually seems to go against the grain of the position that he had two/three years ago

im plugging this!
http://antifascistnetwork.wordpress.com/

 

[butchersapron]

There has never been a better time to give up anti-fascism

 

[TremulousTetra]

There has never been a better time to give up anti-fascism

Said the KPD.

 

[butchersapron]

Which is why they had hundreds of thousands locked up. What a tool.

I'd be very interested in examples of the KPD arguing for giving up anti-fascism as you claim that they did. How many do you have? One? Two? Many?

 

[TremulousTetra]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_fascism

 

[butchersapron]

So have you any examples of the KPD arguing for giving up anti-fascism as you claim that they did?

 

[TremulousTetra]

tantamount to the same thing. In refusing to join with the reformists workers against the fascists and defining them as part of the problem and not the solution, like some 'anarchists' do on here,they argued for giving up on the force that could have defeated fascism in Germany. http://www.marx.org/history/etol/newspape/isj/1969/no038/1930.htm

 

[butchersapron]

So you have no examples at all of them arguing what you claimed that they argued for? And we do have the examples of hundreds of thousands of them not giving up anti-fascism. What a star you are.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Whatever, your still a KPDite. just read the book, that's you that is.

 

[butchersapron]

Your own claim and all you cans ay is 'whatever'?

 

[TremulousTetra]

I provided you with historical fact, both the KPD and Butchers failed to argue for any kind of EFFECTIVE strategy, in the face of fascism.

 

[butchersapron]

In what way is this the KPD arguing - as per your claim - that the KPD (hundreds of thousands of anti-fascist prisoners) should give up anti-fascism? I can demonstrate they they didn't. Can you show that they argued that they should? If not,i think your claim is shown to be false (given that you haven't he integrity to take it back yourself).

 

[TremulousTetra]

I've already explained that to you, if you can understand it that's your problem.

I've moved on to another topic,

I provided you with historical fact, both the KPD and Butchers failed to argue for any kind of EFFECTIVE strategy, in the face of fascism.​

 

[butchersapron]

I've already explained that to you, if you can understand it that's your problem.

You have neither explained it nor demonstrated it. The only thing being demonstrated here is your shaky sectarian grasp on history and your inability to be honest. You fucked it up - as you so often do. Swallow it, move on. Fail better next time.

 

[TremulousTetra]

your wrong. and your wrong to offer no effective alternative, whilst criticising what everybody else does.

You've been bleating on to anyone who will listen for years now "There has never been a better time to give up anti-fascism", and the vast majority of people interested in the topic ignore you. put up an effective alternative, or shut up.

 

[butchersapron]

I'm wrong on what - arguing that the KPD did not argue that they should give up anti-fascism? I'm not, i'm right. Your inability to back up your claim shows this as clear as day.

I'm also right that there's never been a better time to give up anti-fascism.

 

[TremulousTetra]

. Y

I'm wrong on what - arguing that the KPD did not argue that they should give up anti-fascism? I'm not, i'm right. Your inability to back up your claim shows this as clear as day.

I'm also right that there's never been a better time to give up anti-fascism.

Yes,your always right.

And at this point where anti-fascist tactics have successfully once again broke up the organisations of fascism , there may be some merit to your argument, temporarily.even a stopped clock is right twice a day. However, your stopped clock strategy, mimicking the KP D, is wrong.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I provided you with historical fact, both the KPD and Butchers failed to argue for any kind of EFFECTIVE strategy, in the face of fascism.

Hmmm, I've provided you with historical fact many times, including with reference to the KPD's refusal to enter governmental coalition with the SPD, but you ignore it in favour of positing that collaboration with the SPD would have led to an effective anti-fascist strategy, and fail to grasp that in terms of activists, and in terms of actually-existing power to legislate, any coalition would have still not been enough, even in government, to actually do more than apply a brake to the rise of fascism. To actually have made Germany less amenable to fascism would have required a plethora of variations to history such as France conceding that its own reparation claims were unrealistic; the two major economic crises in Germany between the wars to have not occurred, or to have been far milder, and so not actually "crises" at all; and for the Dawes Plan to have failed at the negotiation stage at the latest.
The KPD and SPD would also have required clairvoyant powers to foresee that the Weimar constitution would also have to have been amended to remove or amend the seemingly innocuous section 48.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Hmmm, I've provided you with historical fact many times, including with reference to the KPD's refusal to enter governmental coalition with the SPD, but you ignore it in favour of positing that collaboration with the SPD would have led to an effective anti-fascist strategy, and fail to grasp that in terms of activists, and in terms of actually-existing power to legislate, any coalition would have still not been enough, even in government, to actually do more than apply a brake to the rise of fascism. To actually have made Germany less amenable to fascism would have required a plethora of variations to history such as France conceding that its own reparation claims were unrealistic; the two major economic crises in Germany between the wars to have not occurred, or to have been far milder, and so not actually "crises" at all; and for the Dawes Plan to have failed at the negotiation stage at the latest.
The KPD and SPD would also have required clairvoyant powers to foresee that the Weimar constitution would also have to have been amended to remove or amend the seemingly innocuous section 48.

http://www.marx.org/history/etol/newspape/isj/1969/no038/1930.htm

 

[Joe Reilly]

tantamount to the same thing. In refusing to join with the reformists workers against the fascists and defining them as part of the problem and not the solution, like some 'anarchists' do on here,they argued for giving up on the force that could have defeated fascism in Germany. http://www.marx.org/history/etol/newspape/isj/1969/no038/1930.htm

So what prevented the reformist workers, some 2 million of them in the SPD, fighting fascism in pursuit of it's own interests and objectives?

Simple.

They eschewed the use of violence in pursuit of their own party's objectives, and thus eschewed violence in defence of their own party when under attack.

 

[Fedayn]

So what prevented the reformist workers, some 2 million of them in the SPD, fighting fascism in pursuit of it's own interests and objectives?

Simple.

They eschewed the use of violence in pursuit of their own party's objectives, and thus eschewed violence in defence of their own party when under attack.

In fairness the leadership of the SPD stifled the Reichsbanner (SPD fighting wing). The night of Hitlers election victory the various regional/local leaders of the Reichsbanner went to their leaders/SPD and told them they could put 1m plus on then streets to deal with the SA/SS etc. The SPD leadership, so wedded was it to parliamentary democracy , that they told the Reichsbanner delegates to go home and remain peaceful. Now not all did but you're right the SPD/RB leadership totally rejected such a militant course of action. Many RB members fought heroically but without the national organised backing so vital in such a scenario.

 

[TremulousTetra]

So what prevented the reformist workers, some 2 million of them in the SPD, fighting fascism in pursuit of it's own interests and objectives?

Simple.

They eschewed the use of violence in pursuit of their own party's objectives, and thus eschewed violence in defence of their own party when under attack.

well spotted. don't think the butch boy wonder read that.

In fairness the leadership of the SPD stifled the Reichsbanner (SPD fighting wing). The night of Hitlers election victory the various regional/local leaders of the Reichsbanner went to their leaders/SPD and told them they could put 1m plus on then streets to deal with the SA/SS etc. The SPD leadership, so wedded was it to parliamentary democracy , that they told the Reichsbanner delegates to go home and remain peaceful. Now not all did but you're right the SPD/RB leadership totally rejected such a militant course of action. Many RB members fought heroically but without the national organised backing so vital in such a scenario.

which if the KPD had connected with in a united front form, instead of being sectarianly hostile, the United front COULD have acted as a conveyor from reformist to revolutionary politics.

 

[butchersapron]

well spotted. don't think the butch boy wonder read that.

Read what? Not sure that you quite grasped the point being made by Joe. In fact, i'm sure that you did not.

I do like this naive idea that you have of the good SPD who were just waiting to fight the Nazis if only the KPD would hold hands with them. It essentially says that those workers of the KPD flavour who hadn't forgot Noske, hadn't forgot the SPD using the freikorps on the revolution, the SPD cops massacring people on mayday,the SPD attacks on welfare and unemployment payments and so on would just go along with such an order from above. It totally ignores the social and political reality of weimar Germany - it's utterly redundant to say that the answer to a organisationally, socially and politically divided class is for them to unite. It's even more redundant when you are not aware of these divisions nor off anything to overcome them. Fantasy politics.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Read what? Not sure that you quite grasped the point being made by Joe. In fact, i'm sure that you did not.

lol. I'm just glad he highlighted the point you failed to, and lured the little fishy back on the hook.

I do like this naive idea that you have of the good SPD who were just waiting to fight the Nazis if only the KPD would hold hands with them. It essentially says that those workers of the KPD flavour who hadn't forgot Noske, hadn't forgot the SPD using the freikorps on the revolution, the SPD cops massacring people on mayday,the SPD attacks on welfare and unemployment payments and so on would just go along with such an order from above. It totally ignores the social and political reality of weimar Germany - it's utterly redundant to say that the answer to a organisationally, socially and politically divided class is for them to unite. It's even more redundant when you are not aware of these divisions nor off anything to overcome them. Fantasy politics.

Trotsky's Fascism, Stallinism and the United Front or Butchers sectarianism, who should I believe?

Rather fantasy politics than the do nothing of BA.

 

[butchersapron]

So what was it that i hadn't read? What was you referring to?

Really, that's your political response to the holes in your scenario? To the fact of the social reality that worked against your simplistic view? Really? This is marxism for you is it? People shouldn't do bad things then they won't happen.

 

[TremulousTetra]

So what was it that i hadn't read? What was you referring to?

Really, that's your political response to the holes in your scenario? To the fact of the social reality that worked against your simplistic view? Really? This is marxism for you is it? People shouldn't do bad things then they won't happen.

WTF are you going on about. Trotsky's book. accept it, reject it. I realy don't care, as you have nothing to offer on the topic, beyond "give up".

Carry on bleating.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Read what? Not sure that you quite grasped the point being made by Joe. In fact, i'm sure that you did not.

I do like this naive idea that you have of the good SPD who were just waiting to fight the Nazis if only the KPD would hold hands with them. It essentially says that those workers of the KPD flavour who hadn't forgot Noske, hadn't forgot the SPD using the freikorps on the revolution, the SPD cops massacring people on mayday,the SPD attacks on welfare and unemployment payments and so on would just go along with such an order from above. It totally ignores the social and political reality of weimar Germany - it's utterly redundant to say that the answer to a organisationally, socially and politically divided class is for them to unite. It's even more redundant when you are not aware of these divisions nor off anything to overcome them. Fantasy politics.

BTW, you really do have no understanding of the SWP/Trotskyist UF analysis do you?

 

[butchersapron]

Amazing,i talk about the SPD and he talks about the SWP. Ok, you must then think the SWP are the modern day equivalent of the SPD then or your analogy doesn't work. How many members do you have? How many regions do you run? How many police forces? How many guns?

 

[malatesta32]

just doing this for the 'malatesta' book. as well as revolutionary vs reform, Bessel says that it was cultural differences as well with KPD/SPD: youth v older, unemployed v worker, 'new street' politics rather than the vote. which was also an attractive in the NSDAP. 2 KPD blunders: the joint Berlin transport strike with the fash and the 'social fascists' thing. what i wanna know is what is the case for the united front? if any? anyone?