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Griffin and BNP strategy

Meanwhile, in irrelevance trivia corner, Mr Nice Guy (Eddy Butler) hs just posted yet another eulogy of veteran NF racist Albert Mariner, who carked it after "negotiating" with a flying brick in 1983. Doubtlessly to pin his colours to the true "nationalist mast, Eddy wants us all to remember his proper East End roots, was always there for the white race, who's this chancer Griffin etc. Seeing as he's supporting the geriatric fascist Richard Edmonds in his BNP leadership bid, this is undoubtedly a play to the true believers that Nice Guy is a stand up man, and not one of these namby pamby "reformers" (even though he's been heavily involved with, er, BNP Reform). So whilst the rest of us can chuckle, and await Griffin and Harrington to bring out "Attempted Murder 2", it' a timely reminder that even "nice" guys like Eddy are still unreformed racists and fascists, who aren't going away anytime soon.
 
That a form of National Socialism, outwith the DAP/NSDAP, already existed, and that Hitler brought the various threads together, that outwith the NSDAP a rightist "national socialist" party would probably still have manifested, and that while a united front between the SPD and KPD might have been able to counter--balance a non-Hitlerite National Socialism, in the case of what actually occurred, the most likely result of active warfare (rather than the sporadic street-fighting that took place) between a united front and the Nazis would have meant the decimation (or worse) of the working class, especially given that the German Catholic church pushed it's adherents towards a right-political posture.



I'm not "positive", I'm stating that, with what we know from analysis of historical records/data, testimony etc, the probable outcome would be what I said, that even a united front couldn't have pulled together enough workers into participation in an active fight against Nazism.

i think thats purely specualative . A far right whose trajectory was based on unity and co -operation most definitely looked a much more atractive proposition to many than a left which was divided and at its each others throats . A united left with a common purpose and direction as regards fascism would have been a much more formidable beast in my opinion .
 
i think thats purely specualative . A far right whose trajectory was based on unity and co -operation most definitely looked a much more atractive proposition to many than a left which was divided and at its each others throats . A united left with a common purpose and direction as regards fascism would have been a much more formidable beast in my opinion .

I don't disagree that a united left would have been formidable, but there's not a whole lot of evidence to show that the SPD and KPD could have come together as a united front in the first place, and not because of the KPD's early refusal to engage in electoral politics either (which was when the greatest amount of friction took place between the two parties, at least up until Zörgiebel, but because of the SPD executive's myriad of problems over the life of Weimar with engaging in politics without losing their bottle and ceding political ground to the centre and the right. Too many of the hierarchy still had their heads in the late 19th century, and fell back into the old submissive ways that pertained under Bismarck. While it can't be denied that the SPD made political advances under Weimar, it also can't be denied that they let in loads of easy saves, and too often left an open goal for their political opponents.
 
Just glanced at the BNP %s in the election I make it about 60 wards where they polled over 10%. approx anpother 20 wards where either EDP, EFP, NF or any of the splinter groups got over 10%.
 
^^^Yup, even the openly fascist BPP didn't do too bad either (haven't got the figures to hand now, but David Jones polled 250+ voters, iirc). Doubtlessly Searchlight et al will post it as "the end of fascist politics" again.
 
i don't think it's the end of fascist politics...

but...

when the bnp seemed to be on a roll a few years back this sort of result would have been an absolute disaster for them. but back then they could field fuck loads of candidates. i think what we're seeing is less a disappearance of the sentiment which can elect people from far-right parties, but a combination of different things. the bnp is struggling to field a large complement of candidates, and the problems within the party have, i believe, impacted on their vote - no one, after all, wants to vote for a party in the process of disintegration, as the lib dems have found out to their cost.

a radical right populist party on the up could have achieved significantly better results than the bnp, bpp et al.

what i believe the results show is that an initiative like the iwca could find a better reception now than it did in the 1990s. where in the past there was a greater stranglehold by the 'mainstream' parties than now, their monopoly is no longer so secure.
 
As predicted, the BNP paper tiger has wilted. Given that we have a very strong state while the conditions are not the same as the 1970s it looks like the far right are going to continue to huff and puff and deliver nothing, as they always have.

Where does this leave the working class? Fragmented and divided, with limp political offerings from those who profess to want working class political progress.

How do we get beyond the current impasse? Through unity in practice, through mass class struggles. ALL the parties/federations and groupings only offer a fractured view of class consciousness, and as such provide limited perspectives. There is a desperate need for a politics that encourages class formation and consciousness as a whole beyond and across group boundaries.
 
I don't disagree that a united left would have been formidable, but there's not a whole lot of evidence to show that the SPD and KPD could have come together as a united front in the first place, and not because of the KPD's early refusal to engage in electoral politics either (which was when the greatest amount of friction took place between the two parties, at least up until Zörgiebel, but because of the SPD executive's myriad of problems over the life of Weimar with engaging in politics without losing their bottle and ceding political ground to the centre and the right. Too many of the hierarchy still had their heads in the late 19th century, and fell back into the old submissive ways that pertained under Bismarck. While it can't be denied that the SPD made political advances under Weimar, it also can't be denied that they let in loads of easy saves, and too often left an open goal for their political opponents.
It's not about the KPD relating to the hierarchy of the SDP, it's about "supporting them, like a rope supports a hanged man" to relate to, to influence the "Capitalist Workers" towards social revolution.
 
Meanwhile, in irrelevance trivia corner, Mr Nice Guy (Eddy Butler) hs just posted yet another eulogy of veteran NF racist Albert Mariner, who carked it after "negotiating" with a flying brick in 1983. Doubtlessly to pin his colours to the true "nationalist mast, Eddy wants us all to remember his proper East End roots, was always there for the white race, who's this chancer Griffin etc. Seeing as he's supporting the geriatric fascist Richard Edmonds in his BNP leadership bid, this is undoubtedly a play to the true believers that Nice Guy is a stand up man, and not one of these namby pamby "reformers" (even though he's been heavily involved with, er, BNP Reform). So whilst the rest of us can chuckle, and await Griffin and Harrington to bring out "Attempted Murder 2", it' a timely reminder that even "nice" guys like Eddy are still unreformed racists and fascists, who aren't going away anytime soon.

Griffin and Harrington - even crapper than Little and Large.
 
Just glanced at the BNP %s in the election I make it about 60 wards where they polled over 10%. approx anpother 20 wards where either EDP, EFP, NF or any of the splinter groups got over 10%.

There could be a problem with this proliferation of nudnik parties, in that because parties like the EDP and EFP have no obvious (to Joe and Joanna Public) historical baggage attached to them, they may garner some of their votes from people who think that they're a legitimate non-racist hard right alternative to the BNP (obviously, dig a little deeper, and some of these parties have people on board with histories of racism and fascism as long as yer arm).

I'm not so bothered that they're diluting the BNP vote, mind, just concerned that (despite being decried by Searchlight etc) they may be able to partially pass themselves off as "better than" the BNP.
 
It's not about the KPD relating to the hierarchy of the SDP, it's about "supporting them, like a rope supports a hanged man" to relate to, to influence the "Capitalist Workers" towards social revolution.

That's a fine piece of rhetoric, but what do you believe that it would actually have to have been translated to (in terms of political action) in the concrete situation of Weimar Germany (taking into account the political situation in toto)?

You see, in the end, it's about human relations. It is as much about "the KPD relating to the hierarchy of the SDP [sic]" as it is about political and ideological relations, it can't be anything else, unless you assume that political relations exist in some kind of vacuum from everyday life.
 
So that is no isn't it? You are saying that the KPD workers should not have united with workers to the right of them to oppose fascism?

Uniting with workers to the right of them would have been accomplished by moving to the right themselves. Thus leaving even more room for the Nazis. Afterall what moving right means in terms of anti-fascism is passivity laced with cowardice and hypocrisy.
 
i don't think it's the end of fascist politics...

but...

when the bnp seemed to be on a roll a few years back this sort of result would have been an absolute disaster for them. but back then they could field fuck loads of candidates. i think what we're seeing is less a disappearance of the sentiment which can elect people from far-right parties, but a combination of different things. the bnp is struggling to field a large complement of candidates, and the problems within the party have, i believe, impacted on their vote - no one, after all, wants to vote for a party in the process of disintegration, as the lib dems have found out to their cost.

a radical right populist party on the up could have achieved significantly better results than the bnp, bpp et al.

Excellent post - especially the bit in bold.
 
i think thats purely specualative . A far right whose trajectory was based on unity and co -operation most definitely looked a much more atractive proposition to many than a left which was divided and at its each others throats . A united left with a common purpose and direction as regards fascism would have been a much more formidable beast in my opinion .
I don't disagree that a united left would have been formidable, but there's not a whole lot of evidence to show that the SPD and KPD could have come together as a united front in the first place, and not because of the KPD's early refusal to engage in electoral politics either (which was when the greatest amount of friction took place between the two parties, at least up until Zörgiebel, but because of the SPD executive's myriad of problems over the life of Weimar with engaging in politics without losing their bottle and ceding political ground to the centre and the right. Too many of the hierarchy still had their heads in the late 19th century, and fell back into the old submissive ways that pertained under Bismarck. While it can't be denied that the SPD made political advances under Weimar, it also can't be denied that they let in loads of easy saves, and too often left an open goal for their political opponents.
That's a fine piece of rhetoric, but what do you believe that it would actually have to have been translated to (in terms of political action) in the concrete situation of Weimar Germany (taking into account the political situation in toto)?

You see, in the end, it's about human relations. It is as much about "the KPD relating to the hierarchy of the SDP [sic]" as it is about political and ideological relations, it can't be anything else, unless you assume that political relations exist in some kind of vacuum from everyday life.
[/QUOTE]We have all agreed that;
1. Any statement about what would happen in the Weimar Republic is A] pure speculation, no one can know for absolute sure. B] a moot point. Because what did happen, happened. 2. If the left had been united in opposing fascism at the very least it could have provided a better opposition to the rise of fascism. And taking fascism as an option away from the ruling class could have led to,,,,, ?

The point I'm trying to make, and I assume casual as well, is nothing to do with the Weimar Republic, is to do with today. It's about learning the lessons about the mistakes the SDP and the KPD made, in order not to repeat them.

There is probably as many things dividing the left today, as there were dividing the left in the Weimar Republic, but we should learn the lesson of history, and not repeat those mistakes, this one issue we need to unite in order to defend what we have got.


Now I'm sure you will come up with a very good argument why that is not possible. Why another option is your preferred. That's fine. It's okay to agree to disagree.
 
i don't think it's the end of fascist politics...

but...

when the bnp seemed to be on a roll a few years back this sort of result would have been an absolute disaster for them. but back then they could field fuck loads of candidates. i think what we're seeing is less a disappearance of the sentiment which can elect people from far-right parties, but a combination of different things. the bnp is struggling to field a large complement of candidates, and the problems within the party have, i believe, impacted on their vote - no one, after all, wants to vote for a party in the process of disintegration, as the lib dems have found out to their cost.

a radical right populist party on the up could have achieved significantly better results than the bnp, bpp et al.

what i believe the results show is that an initiative like the iwca could find a better reception now than it did in the 1990s. where in the past there was a greater stranglehold by the 'mainstream' parties than now, their monopoly is no longer so secure.
It's actually nice to agree with you. I think you're absolutely right. What's more, if even the BNP could shed fascist tag, they could yet be the party to fulfill that. In my experience, with people I know it is generally only the fascist tag that holds them back from voting BNP.
 
The point I'm trying to make, and I assume casual as well, is nothing to do with the Weimar Republic, is to do with today. It's about learning the lessons about the mistakes the SDP and the KPD made, in order not to repeat them.

There is probably as many things dividing the left today, as there were dividing the left in the Weimar Republic, but we should learn the lesson of history, and not repeat those mistakes, this one issue we need to unite in order to defend what we have got.

Depends on how you're making your argument - do you see Labour as the SPD, and the various left parties as the KPD? If so, given Labour's submission to neo-liberalism, the gulf is probably bigger now than it was then.
If, however, you're casting the SWP in the SPD role, and the other left groups as the KPD, then the gulf is a lot smaller, but is dependent on all sides finding a resolution, without in-fighting and other activities that would split the front.

I'd like to think that the left (in which I don't include the Labour party, for obvious reasons) could come together in a revolutionary situation, but "peacetime" experience of cooperation doesn't leave me too hopeful.

Now I'm sure you will come up with a very good argument why that is not possible. Why another option is your preferred. That's fine. It's okay to agree to disagree.

Don't make assumptions about what I think or argue, there's a good boy.
 
Some figures posted. Haven't checked them for accuracy:

BNP votes: 73,000
Average % in wards: 7.8%
They came last in 46% of contested seats.
They came last or second to last in 72% of contested seats.
They came first in just under 1% of contested seats
 
As predicted, the BNP paper tiger has wilted. Given that we have a very strong state while the conditions are not the same as the 1970s it looks like the far right are going to continue to huff and puff and deliver nothing, as they always have.

Where does this leave the working class? Fragmented and divided, with limp political offerings from those who profess to want working class political progress.

How do we get beyond the current impasse? Through unity in practice, through mass class struggles. ALL the parties/federations and groupings only offer a fractured view of class consciousness, and as such provide limited perspectives. There is a desperate need for a politics that encourages class formation and consciousness as a whole beyond and across group boundaries.

When is the next edition of PRAXIS coming out?
 
i don't think it's the end of fascist politics...

but...

when the bnp seemed to be on a roll a few years back this sort of result would have been an absolute disaster for them. but back then they could field fuck loads of candidates. i think what we're seeing is less a disappearance of the sentiment which can elect people from far-right parties, but a combination of different things. the bnp is struggling to field a large complement of candidates, and the problems within the party have, i believe, impacted on their vote - no one, after all, wants to vote for a party in the process of disintegration, as the lib dems have found out to their cost.

a radical right populist party on the up could have achieved significantly better results than the bnp, bpp et al.

what i believe the results show is that an initiative like the iwca could find a better reception now than it did in the 1990s. where in the past there was a greater stranglehold by the 'mainstream' parties than now, their monopoly is no longer so secure.

Useful, point in the first para but is what you say re the monoploy of the mainstream parties correct? I still think its more a case of back to Labour in terms of opposition however Labours performance in this elections wasn't particularly good.
 
Useful, point in the first para but is what you say re the monoploy of the mainstream parties correct? I still think its more a case of back to Labour in terms of opposition however Labours performance in this elections wasn't particularly good.
look at eg ukip or respect. while the ruc is effectively dead - thank fuck we will not see its like again - there was a chance that it could have cracked the mould of british politics even if it couldn't break it.
 
Depends on how you're making your argument - do you see Labour as the SPD, and the various left parties as the KPD? If so, given Labour's submission to neo-liberalism, the gulf is probably bigger now than it was then.
If, however, you're casting the SWP in the SPD role, and the other left groups as the KPD, then the gulf is a lot smaller, but is dependent on all sides finding a resolution, without in-fighting and other activities that would split the front.

I'd like to think that the left (in which I don't include the Labour party, for obvious reasons) could come together in a revolutionary situation, but "peacetime" experience of cooperation doesn't leave me too hopeful.
lol, no.
Don't make assumptions about what I think or argue, there's a good


boy.
thanks, old man.
 

So what argument are you making with reference to "the lesson of history" (unity and the lack thereof) that you want us to learn? You explain what point you're trying to make, or people will probably assume that you're calling for "the rest of the left" to unite under the SWP's guiding hand to fight fascism and achieve revolution.
 
When is the next edition of PRAXIS coming out?

Do you mean; http://mayday-magazine.com/ ?

If so, it comes out when there's something useful to say;) I'm in no rush, I've never seen the point in producing magazines that are meant to be 'new' but in reality are so similar to what has gone before that they are effectively sterile. Infact I'm working too hard to think about writing or commissioning articles at the minute, which is a shame.
 
Nobody is saying to be antifascist you have to be a revolutionary socialist. But antifascism has to offer or lead to some sort of alternative, because people turn to the far right precisely because they are seeking a radical alternative to the centre. Antifascism that fails to offer or point to an alternative and instead appeals to the centre and establishment politics is worthless.

Somebody please staple this to the heads of Messrs Gable, Lowles, Collins, Bennett and Smith please.
Whatever makes you think that any of them actually care?
 
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