Griffin and BNP strategy

[MellySingsDoom]

Update notes: After the "triumph" of Sid Williamson's return to the world of "white nationalism" (ahem), we now have the return of.....Pete Rushton! He hasn't graced us with a blog (yet), but he's popped up on the British Democracy Forum (under the nom-de-plume of "retread"), defending the honour of, er, Pete Rushton. Time to get a dash of your favourite tipple, and warm to the entertaining highlights of Pete. He's doing his greatest hits set at the moment, including those timeless numbers "I'm not Searchlight", "John Tyndall and I were close comrades", "Ray Hill!!!!", "the EFP are a respectable organisation" and "I always knew Griffin was a wrong 'un". The encore number this evening is "I knew Steve Brady too!". I think he's hoping to do a double act with Mark Cotterill at some point, and wow 'em at some sort of Odinist Vegas.

All we need is the return of Kev The Gluebag Whatmough, and we've got a full set of WNP "legends" back once again in the fray. Time to get yer anti-fascist popcorn out!

 

[ViolentPanda]

fair point about the KPD. Shouting from the sidelines was more in reference to my point the other day about anarchists in Seattle, and on here. So in correction I should have said the KPD made a similar mistake to this.

It was similar, in that they sought to act as a minority of pure revolutionaries, rather than uniting with the majority SDP workers. I underline workers because it is them Revolutionaries have to unite with imo, not the SDP leadership, to create a MASS direct action.

It's SPD (Sozialdemokratische Partei Deutschlands), not SDP, and the "majority" was not a majority, not even in 1919 when the SPD took 38% of the vote, and the USPD (Unabhängige Sozialdemokratische Partei Deutschlands) 7.8% (and both of which included professionals as well as workers in their memberships). Even bearing that in mind, there were still many millions of working class Catholic voters who stuck with the Zentrum Partei in national elections.

One of the reasons that the KPD didn't "unite" with the SPD (or the USPD) was that their political philosophies differed vastly. It's like asking why the SWP hasn't thrown it's lot in with Labour.

No it is not odd. Even though it was the SDP who sent in the soldiers to put the rifle butt through Rosa Luxemburg's head, the SDP workers were the majority of the working class, and the emancipation of the working class has to be the act of these people, and revolutionaries have to stand with them to win them to revolution imo.

Jesus, where the fuck do you get your (potted) history from?

Referring to these workers as social fascist, ghettoised the KPD from the vast bulk of the working class.

There were nearly ten years between RL and KL's murders and the use of the phrase "social fascist" to describe the SPD, and the KPD's membership and vote count didn't change upward or downward in light of that. So much for "ghettoised".

 

[ViolentPanda]

Update notes: After the "triumph" of Sid Williamson's return to the world of "white nationalism" (ahem), we now have the return of.....Pete Rushton! He hasn't graced us with a blog (yet), but he's popped up on the British Democracy Forum (under the nom-de-plume of "retread"), defending the honour of, er, Pete Rushton. Time to get a dash of your favourite tipple, and warm to the entertaining highlights of Pete. He's doing his greatest hits set at the moment, including those timeless numbers "I'm not Searchlight", "John Tyndall and I were close comrades", "Ray Hill!!!!", "the EFP are a respectable organisation" and "I always knew Griffin was a wrong 'un". The encore number this evening is "I knew Steve Brady too!". I think he's hoping to do a double act with Mark Cotterill at some point, and wow 'em at some sort of Odinist Vegas.

All we need is the return of Kev The Gluebag Whatmough, and we've got a full set of WNP "legends" back once again in the fray. Time to get yer anti-fascist popcorn out!

 

[audiotech]

It should be recalled that in the 'Third Period' of the Stalinist bureaucratic consolidation many European Communist party's viewed social democrats worse even than the actual fascists. In Germany the KPD won first prize in misleading and betraying the working class. It not only equated the Social Democrats with the Nazis, but actively collaborated with Nazis to break up Social Democrat meetings, as well as organising joint strikes and supporting a Nazi-initiated referendum to overthrow the Social Democratic government of Prussia. This helped ease Hitler into power.

 

[Pickman's model]

fair point about the KPD. Shouting from the sidelines was more in reference to my point the other day about anarchists in Seattle, and on here. So in correction I should have said the KPD made a similar mistake to this.

It was similar, in that they sought to act as a minority of pure revolutionaries, rather than uniting with the majority SDP workers. I underline workers because it is them Revolutionaries have to unite with imo, not the SDP leadership, to create a MASS direct action.

No it is not odd. Even though it was the SDP who sent in the soldiers to put the rifle butt through Rosa Luxemburg's head, the SDP workers were the majority of the working class, and the emancipation of the working class has to be the act of these people, and revolutionaries have to stand with them to win them to revolution imo.

Referring to these workers as social fascist, ghettoised the KPD from the vast bulk of the working class. It's like the call for revolutionary unions, where all the workers with the most revolutionary ideas about transforming society join this fantastic union, leaving the vast bulk of 'capitalist workers'to be influenced by the the 'reformists'.

so the SDP/reformist leadership 'collusion', is only a means to an end, uniting with the vast bulk of 'capitalist workers' to produce mass antifascist action By the working class for the working class, rather than a self-selected minority carrying out anti-fascism on behalf of the 'capitalist workers' imo.

In short Joe, I can see your point, but I do not agree with you that a minority can substitute for the majority, which is what the KPD/AFA were doing IMO.

this seems to me to be an argument for the ideological purity which can only be gained by doing nothing, because nothing is ever good enough for the likes of rmp3.

and you're as full of shit (and lying AGAIN) about the KPD being 'ghettoised from the vast bulk of the working class'. in 1932 the kpd polled 5,000,000 votes. how exactly is that ghettoised from the vast bulk of the working class?

answers on a postcard pls.

 

[dennisr]

BUT! MASS action anti-fascism, does not need to thrash out an agreement about a new society, before it defends democracy from fascism. Sometimes you have to defend what you've got.

Another straw man arguement rather than an honest answer leading to an honest discussion.

No-one is argueing against working with others who are not fully-fledged revolutionaries.

The entire point of a genuine united front is to unite around a common platform of interests - in this case anti-fascism. Uniting different strands of working class organisation/thought that is - in practical united action around common defence of common interests that all recogise they have.

But your organisation confuses this with the 'popular front' (to use the tankie lingo) idea of hiding your alternative in a desire to unite with non-working class forces. In fact you prefer working with vicars and tories over working genuinely with other socialists (just as you manovre socialists off of anti-war platforms at other times). You hide any working class alternative on offer. Your 'united front of a special kind' is, in fact, the very worst type of popular (as in cross class) front. It is against independant working class action - tying workers to some artificial cross class 'unity'

This is the mistake the KPD made IMO.

The KPD simply had equivilent idiots leading them to those of the 'theorists' of the SWP. Like the SWP they bounced from ultra-left posturing (equating social democrats to 'social fascists' - condemning all workers who were not communists) to cross class popular frontism (tying workers to various false 'progressive' non-working class forces) at the flick of a switch. At least the KPD represented genuine mass forces within german society though. Its a shame those forces had such poor leadership.

The SWP has learnt absolutely nothing from that experience. Not one single thing - its a closed book to you - at least as far as I can see from this deluded cheerleaders utter confusion and and empty guff about 'KPD menality'.

Your organisation actually prints Trotsky's writings from the period! - it is little short of astounding that you cannot understand the clear and simple points he is making on the subject of the KPD and anti-fascism. Its a simple guide to action, tactics, neccesities - not some holy writ to be interpreted to suit your parties line at any given point.

 

[Pickman's model]

i don't find it at all surprising that rmp3 cannot understand the clear and simple points trotsky's making on the subject of the kpd and anti-fascism.

 

[dennisr]

It should be recalled that in the 'Third Period' of the Stalinist bureaucratic consolidation many European Communist party's viewed social democrats worse even than the actual fascists. In Germany the KPD won first prize in misleading and betraying the working class. It not only equated the Social Democrats with the Nazis, but actively collaborated with Nazis to break up Social Democrat meetings, as well as organising joint strikes and supporting a Nazi-initiated referendum to overthrow the Social Democratic government of Prussia. This helped ease Hitler into power.

As much as there were instances of both brownshirts and KPD supporting strikes and non-agression pacts at certain points - its would be entirely false to paint the KPD as simply stooges of the Nazi party. You are taking examples of the results of wrong-headed ultra-left mistakes by the KPD (and, of course, russian bureaucracy being behind these mad positions) - raised by critical communists such as trotsky - and painting this as the entire history of the KPD to serve your arguements in the here and now. Instances of the SPD leadership 'helping Hitler into power' by default can also be found.

 

[TremulousTetra]

this seems to me to be an argument for the ideological purity which can only be gained by doing nothing, because nothing is ever good enough for the likes of rmp3.

and you're as full of shit (and lying AGAIN) about the KPD being 'ghettoised from the vast bulk of the working class'. in 1932 the kpd polled 5,000,000 votes. how exactly is that ghettoised from the vast bulk of the working class?

answers on a postcard pls.

It should be recalled that in the 'Third Period' of the Stalinist bureaucratic consolidation many European Communist party's viewed social democrats worse even than the actual fascists. In Germany the KPD won first prize in misleading and betraying the working class. It not only equated the Social Democrats with the Nazis, but actively collaborated with Nazis to break up Social Democrat meetings, as well as organising joint strikes and supporting a Nazi-initiated referendum to overthrow the Social Democratic government of Prussia. This helped ease Hitler into power.

shush.

 

[Pickman's model]

shush.

that doesn't answer 'in 1932 the kpd polled 5,000,000 votes. how exactly is that ghettoised from the vast bulk of the working class?'

 

[TremulousTetra]

As much as there were instances of both brownshirts and KPD supporting strikes and non-agression pacts at certain points - its would be entirely false to paint the KPD as simply stooges of the Nazi party. You are taking examples of the results of wrong-headed ultra-left mistakes by the KPD (and, of course, russian bureaucracy being behind these mad positions) - raised by critical communists such as trotsky - and painting this as the entire history of the KPD to serve your arguements in the here and now. Instances of the SPD leadership 'helping Hitler into power' by default can also be found.

Strawman, no one os saying the KPD were stooges for the Nazi's. What I am saying is they were ultra left, like some U75 anarchists IMO.

Fair play to him he has never explicitly stated his proper position on fascism, but from everything he has said one anarchist in particular comes across very much in the KPD mould IMO.

 

[butchersapron]

It should be recalled that in the 'Third Period' of the Stalinist bureaucratic consolidation many European Communist party's viewed social democrats worse even than the actual fascists. In Germany the KPD won first prize in misleading and betraying the working class. It not only equated the Social Democrats with the Nazis, but actively collaborated with Nazis to break up Social Democrat meetings, as well as organising joint strikes and supporting a Nazi-initiated referendum to overthrow the Social Democratic government of Prussia. This helped ease Hitler into power.

Any chance you could stop pasting the words of others as your own, you've been doing it for months now and it's starting to get annoying.

As for organised joint strikes with the nazis, not really. The KPD initiated a mass transport strike in Berlin 1932 after the SPD unions sold them out that gained a large amount of support (KPS members, members of the NSBO later joined in when it became clear that not to would be to lose the most militnat w/c members. That's it.

 

[butchersapron]

that doesn't answer 'in 1932 the kpd polled 5,000,000 votes. how exactly is that ghettoised from the vast bulk of the working class?'

1/3 of Berlin voters in the last Weimar election -and there's many more examples. Inaccurate politically motivated claims of ghettoisation etc only serves to make the person making the claim look daft.

 

[butchersapron]

Of course th really tragic thing about this misguided attempt to forcefully map the historical redundancy and political irrelevancy of 1933 Germnay onto modern day conditions, is that the SWP and the UAF get to place themselves in the role of the SPD (Millions of members, tens of millions of voters, millions of union members).

 

[The39thStep]

Morley South, has a history of some, in what they would term, 'significant levels' of support for fascists - from as far back as the BUF and later the NF. Independents make a strong showing there also. To be blunt, it's a backwater, with little diversity. I wouldn't take this as typical and I wouldn't extrapolate anything from this result either.

Diversity is often an unfortunate euphemism for race but of course there is diversity in single race communities. However your comments reminded me of the content of a recent paper (http://www.sociology.ox.ac.uk/documents/working-papers/2010/swp104.pdf) which looks at two theories that try and understand the more favourable conditions for the far right by analysing data of BNP membership.

One is contact theory which pretty much what is says in that the more contact between people form different background the more suspicion breaks down and trust is built. The second is threat theory where the majority's perception of the threat of a minority over resources ( ie housing, health, jobs etc) increases with the numerical size of the minority. The latter theory can be extended to include issues such as identity as well as resources.

Essentially the far right are likely to do worse where communities integrate or where the perceived threat is low. With the former integration is often patchy across the UK ( supported by top down multiculturalism) and the far right have shifted their focus from race to culture and in particular the fear of Islam. With the latter studies show ( and born out by the Hope Not Hate research) that the fear of immigration is pretty much the same across whites, blacks and Asians. Top down ,multiculturalism heightens the threat over resources.

So its not so much about diversity but integration and its not so much about 'hideously white' ( which 'lack of diversity' hints at) but about perceived threat.

Intriguingly though is there any reasons why 'back waters with little diversity' shouldn't also be a favourable for the left? little community turnover, strong community ties or is he left somehow restricted to areas where there is 'diversity'?

 

[TremulousTetra]

i don't find it at all surprising that rmp3 cannot understand the clear and simple points trotsky's making on the subject of the kpd and anti-fascism.

Dennis's post has nothing to do with RMP3. He is making a political attack upon the SWP. Political! Whereas your post really does typify why IMO you VP and BA are such complete and utter fucking wankers, because you prefer personal attack, to political attack. That's fine, if that's what you want to do, but is really boring to me.

Have a nice day.

 

[TremulousTetra]

But your organisation

‘My’ organisation, has absolutely nothing to do with my comments above. I am comparing and contrasting the ultraleft mentality of the KPD in a specific period, with that of ultraleft U75 anarchists generally.

No-one is argueing against working with others who are not fully-fledged revolutionaries.

are you sure of that? I think there are some who would argue it was right of the KPD not to work with the SDP. I'm not saying the same people would argue that the KPD were right to work with fascist in undermining the SDP, but what I said above.

Now I have asked these people point-blank about this issue, and they refuse to answer. So, your guess is as good as mine.

The entire point of a genuine united front is to unite around a common platform of interests - in this case anti-fascism. Uniting different strands of working class organisation/thought that is - in practical united action around common defence of common interests that all recogise they have.

confuses this with the 'popular front' (to use the tankie lingo) idea of hiding your alternative in a desire to unite with non-working class forces. In fact you prefer working with vicars and tories over working genuinely with other socialists (just as you manovre socialists off of anti-war platforms at other times).
The KPD [My edit] bounced from ultra-left posturing (equating social democrats to 'social fascists' - condemning all workers who were not communists) to cross class popular frontism (tying workers to various false 'progressive' non-working class forces) at the flick of a switch. At least the KPD represented genuine mass forces within german society though. Its a shame those forces had such poor leadership.

there isn’t anything I, Paul Foot or Chris Bamberry really disagree with there, now I have edited your comments. It is exactly the same as what the SWP says. I would just add to that, from my memory of what the SWP said/argue, the Communist parties of the interwar years did indeed swing from one direction to another. If I remember rightly, they were very good between 1928 and 1932/34?, building from the bottom up much grass-roots working-class organisation and resistance. From 1932/34? To 1936/38? flipping to ultra-leftism. And 1936/38 again flipping to popular frontism. These were almost entirely dictated by the imperialist needs of Stalinism.

 

[Pickman's model]

Dennis's post has nothing to do with RMP3. He is making a political attack upon the SWP. Political! Whereas your post really does typify why IMO you VP and BA are such complete and utter fucking wankers, because you prefer personal attack, to political attack. That's fine, if that's what you want to do, but is really boring to me.

Have a nice day.

your claim that the kpd was ghettoised from the working class, despite the fact it received 5,000,000 votes in 1932: comments pls.

 

[Pickman's model]

Dennis's post has nothing to do with RMP3. He is making a political attack upon the SWP. Political! Whereas your post really does typify why IMO you VP and BA are such complete and utter fucking wankers, because you prefer personal attack, to political attack. That's fine, if that's what you want to do, but is really boring to me.

Have a nice day.

yeh cos calling people 'such complete and utter wankers' is a demonstration of your political nous, isn't it?

 

[TremulousTetra]

your claim that the kpd was ghettoised from the working class, despite the fact it received 5,000,000 votes in 1932: comments pls.

A political comment, well done! Even if you did have to pinch them of somebody else.

A big ghetto, still remains a ghetto, if you purposefully ghettoise yourself from the majority.

The emancipation of the working class, even from fascism, has to be the act of the working class. And the majority of the working class in Germany were SDP politically. The KPD workers should have united with them to obliterate the Nazis while they were still small IMO. Agreed?

 

[audiotech]

Any chance you could stop pasting the words of others as your own, you've been doing it for months now and it's starting to get annoying.

I dispute your general assertion, but I do accept that in this case the post of mine you refer to should have been correctly attributed. I'll do that now.

It should be recalled that in the 'Third Period' of the Stalinist bureaucratic consolidation many European Communist party's viewed social democrats "worse even than the actual fascists". In Germany the KPD won first prize in "misleading and betraying the working class". It not only "equated the Social Democrats with the Nazis, but actively collaborated with Nazis to break up Social Democrat meetings, as well as organising joint strikes and supporting a Nazi-initiated referendum to overthrow the Social Democratic government of Prussia. This helped ease Hitler into power."

Source:

A paper on Italian fascism from 'The Commune'.

 

[MellySingsDoom]

For those interested, this is the result for the ward that Derek Beackon was standing in (Chadwell St Mary):

Anthony William Fish (Labour) - 1174 (53.27%)
Lee Dove (Conservative) - 523 (23.73%)
James Nicholas Baker (UKIP) - 262 (11.89%)
Derek William Beackon (BNP) - 165 (7.49%)
Natalie Butcher (Liberal Democrats) - 80 (3.63%)

Turnout - 2204 (31.01%)

In the 2010 election in this ward, Beackon scored 19.80%.

 

[ViolentPanda]

It should be recalled that in the 'Third Period' of the Stalinist bureaucratic consolidation many European Communist party's viewed social democrats worse even than the actual fascists. In Germany the KPD won first prize in misleading and betraying the working class. It not only equated the Social Democrats with the Nazis...

Not quite accurate, they equated them with fascists, hence "social fascists".

...but actively collaborated with Nazis to break up Social Democrat meetings, as well as organising joint strikes and supporting a Nazi-initiated referendum to overthrow the Social Democratic government of Prussia.

As did other small parties of the right and left, it should be said.

This helped ease Hitler into power.

Many other factors helped Hitler too. The KPD aren't uniquely to blame, and nothing could really be said to have "eased" him into power. Power still, at the final analysis, had to be stolen by him, something that wouldn't have happened if von Paper, Schleicher and Hindenberg hadn't arrogantly assumed that they could act as puppet-masters to him, and garnered support for the Enabling Act.

 

[TremulousTetra]

I dispute your general assertion, but I do accept that in this case the post of mine you refer to should have been correctly attributed. I'll do that now.

It should be recalled that in the 'Third Period' of the Stalinist bureaucratic consolidation many European Communist party's viewed social democrats "worse even than the actual fascists". In Germany the KPD won first prize in "misleading and betraying the working class". It not only "equated the Social Democrats with the Nazis, but actively collaborated with Nazis to break up Social Democrat meetings, as well as organising joint strikes and supporting a Nazi-initiated referendum to overthrow the Social Democratic government of Prussia. This helped ease Hitler into power."

Source:

A paper on Italian fascism from 'The Commune'.

Why? Why you appologise to these self appointed post police? Fuck him. If the words conveyed your opinions, they are yours.

Fucking fed up of these internet bullies, fucking mental twots.

 

[audiotech]

As much as there were instances of both brownshirts and KPD supporting strikes and non-agression pacts at certain points - its would be entirely false to paint the KPD as simply stooges of the Nazi party. You are taking examples of the results of wrong-headed ultra-left mistakes by the KPD (and, of course, russian bureaucracy being behind these mad positions) - raised by critical communists such as trotsky - and painting this as the entire history of the KPD to serve your arguements in the here and now. Instances of the SPD leadership 'helping Hitler into power' by default can also be found.

'Stooges'? Of course not and neither did the post paint this as the 'entire history' of the KPD.

 

[Pickman's model]

A political comment, well done! Even if you did have to pinch them of somebody else.

A big ghetto, still remains a ghetto, if you purposefully ghettoise yourself from the majority.

The emancipation of the working class, even from fascism, has to be the act of the working class. And the majority of the working class in Germany were SDP politically. The KPD workers should have united with them to obliterate the Nazis while they were still small IMO. Agreed?

not at all. let's put it this way, the emancipation of the german working class from fascism is arguably in part the work of the british ruling class. i will agree with you that 'the kpd workers should have united with the [spd workers] to obliterate the nazis while they were still small' is your opinion. but it's not really an opinion which has the benefit of being historically literate or which has any real thought behind it, is it?

can you name me a couple of countries where the working class have freed themselves from fascism?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Dennis's post has nothing to do with RMP3. He is making a political attack upon the SWP. Political! Whereas your post really does typify why IMO you VP and BA are such complete and utter fucking wankers, because you prefer personal attack, to political attack. That's fine, if that's what you want to do, but is really boring to me.

Have a nice day.

Interesting that questioning your loaded reading of history makes us "complete and utter fucking wankers".

I haven't made any personal attack on you, so please don't try to imply that I have, all I've done is question your one-sided and inaccurate interpretations of history. Me, I can give you sources for my posts on the KPD and SPD from credible academic sources rather than political sources, can you do the same?

 

[audiotech]

Diversity is often an unfortunate euphemism for race but of course there is diversity in single race communities. However your comments reminded me of the content of a recent paper (http://www.sociology.ox.ac.uk/documents/working-papers/2010/swp104.pdf) which looks at two theories that try and understand the more favourable conditions for the far right by analysing data of BNP membership.

One is contact theory which pretty much what is says in that the more contact between people form different background the more suspicion breaks down and trust is built. The second is threat theory where the majority's perception of the threat of a minority over resources ( ie housing, health, jobs etc) increases with the numerical size of the minority. The latter theory can be extended to include issues such as identity as well as resources.

Essentially the far right are likely to do worse where communities integrate or where the perceived threat is low. With the former integration is often patchy across the UK ( supported by top down multiculturalism) and the far right have shifted their focus from race to culture and in particular the fear of Islam. With the latter studies show ( and born out by the Hope Not Hate research) that the fear of immigration is pretty much the same across whites, blacks and Asians. Top down ,multiculturalism heightens the threat over resources.

So its not so much about diversity but integration and its not so much about 'hideously white' ( which 'lack of diversity' hints at) but about perceived threat.

Intriguingly though is there any reasons why 'back waters with little diversity' shouldn't also be a favourable for the left? little community turnover, strong community ties or is he left somehow restricted to areas where there is 'diversity'?

An old friend of mine lives in the area if that helps.

 

[ViolentPanda]

‘My’ organisation, has absolutely nothing to do with my comments above. I am comparing and contrasting the ultraleft mentality of the KPD in a specific period, with that of ultraleft U75 anarchists generally.

In which case it's obviously extremely coincidental that your accusation re: the KPD fit so well with those expressed by members of the SWP.

 

[Pickman's model]

Why? Why you appologise to these self appointed post police? Fuck him. If the words conveyed your opinions, they are yours.

Fucking fed up of these internet bullies, fucking mental twots.

you don't like it up you, do you?