Griffin and BNP strategy
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does that have anything to do with the boundary changes? Is Percentage of votes up or down?
TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
SO much for the KPD mentality of SOME U75 @ists.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Who are you accusing of having said something/expressed a viewpoint that it'll later turn out they never said/expressed this time, oh bearer of the shining sword of truth?
past caring
The Cathars were right
You give him too much credit VP, for your post allows the possibility that the idiot/liar might have some accurate notion of what "the KPD mentality" might have been.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
I'm sure he knows what "the KPD mentality" is.
Or, at least, he knows the SWP version of what "the KPD mentality" supposedly is, anyway.
Of course, it's interesting that the mentality that gets attributed to the KPD was manifested to a far greater extent by the SPD of the time, but it's not as easy to have a go at middle-of-the-road social democrats as it is supposed hard-liners, is it?
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
Am I correct in thinking that the BNP have held only one of their seats this time around? And that their vote is down?
Taken together with their setback in Wales (they were hyping up their chance of a seat but in the end fell well short and were beaten by both the Greens and Socialist Labour(!)) this seems like a very bad night for them. Can anyone give a reasonable analysis of their current situation and what's likely to happen. The media is going on about their debt and about what a catastrophe this is for them, but it all seems to be regurgitated Searchlight press releases, so I'd rather get another point of view.
Taken together with their setback in Wales (they were hyping up their chance of a seat but in the end fell well short and were beaten by both the Greens and Socialist Labour(!)) this seems like a very bad night for them. Can anyone give a reasonable analysis of their current situation and what's likely to happen. The media is going on about their debt and about what a catastrophe this is for them, but it all seems to be regurgitated Searchlight press releases, so I'd rather get another point of view.
MellySingsDoom
Decimated by the shrapnel of his rhetoric
^^^ Best to wait until all the results are present and correct, and the data's there to see a) how many peeps in total voted for them, and b) compare and constrast votes/percentages this year with the last set of local elections to see what the lay of the land is.
TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
claphamboy
The wheels on the bus go round and round....
As results stand so far:
BNP Councillors - only 2, down 11.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/election2011/council/html/england.stm
Plus side:
Greens - 66 up 16
BNP Councillors - only 2, down 11.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/election2011/council/html/england.stm
Plus side:
Greens - 66 up 16
TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
As results stand so far:
BNP Councillors - only 2, down 11.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/election2011/council/html/england.stm
Plus side:
Greens - 66 up 16
good news! It's a victory, but it's not a solution, is it?time to build a socialist alternative, not just to the fascist, but to the neoliberal consensus which produces it.
Proper Tidy
Arsed
Is it a victory? For who? Doesn't strike me as an antifascist victory.
Most of the smaller parties have been squeezed not just the BNP, Scotland aside where the SNP are no longer a smaller party. Plaid's results in Wales for example are shit. This is in the face of a strong anti-Tory/anti-coalition vote which has led to major Labour gains. The organisational faults of the BNP have played a part, but the far right is still in fairly rude health in the UK, and even if the BNP collapse they will be replaced. The BNP are not the cause of white working class social alienation or the lack of working class political representation, they are a symptom of it, and as the cuts kick in, without any genuine alternatives then people will continue to turn to the far right. Particularly if a Labour govt gets elected which then proceeds to undertake cuts and follow the neo-liberal line, which is of course exactly what they would do.
I don't mean to piss on everybody's chips but every election we see the usual suspects of UAF and Searchlight and the liberal left preaching a new dawn and gloating about the collapse of the far right. Anybody even vaguely familiar with the development of the far right over the last few decades will know that this is the opposite of the truth. Until there is a genuine pro-working class alternative at the ballot box - and one taken seriously by voters - then the far right will continue to pose a major threat, will continue to exercise undue influence over the centre, will continue to see their policies adopted by the centre, and will continue to prosper in working class communities that feel left behind.
But lols that they got less votes than Scargill's lot in Wales mind.
Most of the smaller parties have been squeezed not just the BNP, Scotland aside where the SNP are no longer a smaller party. Plaid's results in Wales for example are shit. This is in the face of a strong anti-Tory/anti-coalition vote which has led to major Labour gains. The organisational faults of the BNP have played a part, but the far right is still in fairly rude health in the UK, and even if the BNP collapse they will be replaced. The BNP are not the cause of white working class social alienation or the lack of working class political representation, they are a symptom of it, and as the cuts kick in, without any genuine alternatives then people will continue to turn to the far right. Particularly if a Labour govt gets elected which then proceeds to undertake cuts and follow the neo-liberal line, which is of course exactly what they would do.
I don't mean to piss on everybody's chips but every election we see the usual suspects of UAF and Searchlight and the liberal left preaching a new dawn and gloating about the collapse of the far right. Anybody even vaguely familiar with the development of the far right over the last few decades will know that this is the opposite of the truth. Until there is a genuine pro-working class alternative at the ballot box - and one taken seriously by voters - then the far right will continue to pose a major threat, will continue to exercise undue influence over the centre, will continue to see their policies adopted by the centre, and will continue to prosper in working class communities that feel left behind.
But lols that they got less votes than Scargill's lot in Wales mind.
TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
time to build a socialist alternative, not just to the fascist, but to the neoliberal consensus which produces it.
tom8O's tomarto's.
Plumdaff
joy in people
I'd agree with much of what Proper Tidy says and would add that we're no way near the point at which I'd expect to see an upswing in BNP support. That time is coming soon - when the cuts to jobs and services really bite, it's only just starting to happen - and we'll see whether there's a broad left able to fight back against it (it sure as hell won't come from Labour).
MellySingsDoom
Decimated by the shrapnel of his rhetoric
^^^Also, if, as Joe Reilly has previously stated, the Con Dems relax their current moratorium on immigration (through to the demands of corporates/business etc to have a more fluid immigration policy to help create growth and wealth), then the BNP/NF etc will think that Xmas has come early as they'd see that as a "return to uncontrolled immigration" (no doubt fuelled too by the right wing press) - manna from heaven for the far-right.
past caring
The Cathars were right
As it goes, Joe's point;
was not a prediction but a statement of fact. From 30/1/2004 when their countries acceded to the EU, A8 nationals (Poles, Czechs, Estonians, Hungarians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Slovakians and Slovenians) could not claim benefits such as JSA, Income Support (and from when it was introduced in 2008, ESA) without first having completed 12 months continuous employment registered with the Home Office. Housing Benefit could be claimed, but only if they were in work and on a low income. The rules didn't apply to the self-employed (they could claim in-work benefits like Working Tax Credit) whilst they were self-employed, but if that stopped they would still have to complete 12 months registered work before being able to claim. The UK was allowed to "derogate" from the rules allowing free movement for all EU citizens in respect of these A8 nationals for a period of 5 years - with the option of a 2 year extension which was taken.
So whilst we may have seen some considerable numbers of eastern European immigrants, it was also true to say that no-one was simply able to ship up here and claim benefits on the basis of looking for work. From 1/5/2011 the UK had no option but to abandon those rules that restricted benefit entitlement, so it's not a case of whether the rules will or will not be relaxed - they've already gone.
was not a prediction but a statement of fact. From 30/1/2004 when their countries acceded to the EU, A8 nationals (Poles, Czechs, Estonians, Hungarians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Slovakians and Slovenians) could not claim benefits such as JSA, Income Support (and from when it was introduced in 2008, ESA) without first having completed 12 months continuous employment registered with the Home Office. Housing Benefit could be claimed, but only if they were in work and on a low income. The rules didn't apply to the self-employed (they could claim in-work benefits like Working Tax Credit) whilst they were self-employed, but if that stopped they would still have to complete 12 months registered work before being able to claim. The UK was allowed to "derogate" from the rules allowing free movement for all EU citizens in respect of these A8 nationals for a period of 5 years - with the option of a 2 year extension which was taken.
So whilst we may have seen some considerable numbers of eastern European immigrants, it was also true to say that no-one was simply able to ship up here and claim benefits on the basis of looking for work. From 1/5/2011 the UK had no option but to abandon those rules that restricted benefit entitlement, so it's not a case of whether the rules will or will not be relaxed - they've already gone.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
It's not really a victory, though. It's a manifestation of, for the most part, the BNP's lack of success at holding onto gains within the normal ebb and flow of local party politics.
That doesn't mean, of course, that it won't be claimed as a victory by certain interested "parties", but a claim isn't a matter of fact.
Isn't that what the SWP have been trying and failing to do for 4+ decades?
MellySingsDoom
Decimated by the shrapnel of his rhetoric
past caring -thanks for that, very informative. The shit will really hit the fan if Roma from Czech Rep and Slovakia (where they suffer immense racism and discrimination) are allowed their legal right to come here - the BNP and NF will play massively on this "alien invasion".
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
The problem being that UAF have inculcated themselves with a narrative that says that BNP support is based on social and economic factors as they affect a single class
it's not just "working-class communities" where they've established beachheads, though. They've done well in lower middle-class/"working class made good" neighbourhoods too.
(Mind you, this depends how you're defining "working class: Socially and/or economically?
That's what you call "discouraging".
TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
what is it now? Has to be nearly 16 years of anti-asylum seeker/immigrant propaganda on a daily basis. Even the BNP recognise this is the basis of their growing support.One reason they haven't got a bigger foothold in my opinion, is because whether or not it is anything to do with anti-fascism, in most people's minds, the BNP have been most definitely tagged as a neofascist party. Something, however shit the mainstream parties, something most people would want nothing to do with.
At the end of the day, people pick up on a word, instead of addressing the whole post. There is no disagreement whatsoever over the issue of the necessity to build an alternative. An electoral alternative? Having been on the knocker in two failed attempts to build a 'reformist' with revolutionaries involved mass party, an electoral alternative, I have my doubts whether this is the best way to go. Obviously I could be wrong, and would love it if the Socialist party, whoever, proved me wrong. I really don't have any issue with that.
What I have an issue with, is this simplistic, nonsensical notion, that antifascism and building an alternative cannot be done at the same time. That the two activities cannot go hand-in-hand. That KPD mentality.
dennisr
the acceptable face
Talk about re-writing history. Talk about straw man arguements (and worse). So why does the organisation you support seperate the two out? - to the extent of 'vote labour - its better than the BNP', put tories on platforms in a 'popular' front etc etc etc. The campaign against the BNP should put forward class slogans - "jobs and home not racism" - "working class unity against tory cuts" - not Liberal mentality "unity". Don't try and hide 20+ years of SWP hypocricy.
Plumdaff
joy in people
Well don't have an issue because I quite clearly wrote nothing of the sort.
As for the rest of your post, surely it's clear to you that there's a difference between propaganda and the daily reality of unemployment and poverty increasing as services and prospects dwindle and how this might lead to an increase in BNP support? We're in a terrible mess on the left at present, but I'd suggest community anti-cuts campaigns are good places to start building an anti-fascist alternative right now.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
One reason they haven't got a bigger foothold in my opinion, is because whether or not it is anything to do with anti-fascism, in most people's minds, the BNP have been most definitely tagged as a neofascist party. Something, however shit the mainstream parties, something most people would want nothing to do with.
At the end of the day, people pick up on a word, instead of addressing the whole post. There is no disagreement whatsoever over the issue of the necessity to build an alternative. An electoral alternative? Having been on the knocker in two failed attempts to build a 'reformist' with revolutionaries involved mass party, an electoral alternative, I have my doubts whether this is the best way to go. Obviously I could be wrong, and would love it if the Socialist party, whoever, proved me wrong. I really don't have any issue with that.
What I have an issue with, is this simplistic, nonsensical notion, that antifascism and building an alternative cannot be done at the same time. That the two activities cannot go hand-in-hand. That KPD mentality.
The BNP have been tagged as a neo nazi party for the past 20 years but that has hardy prevented it winning MEPs, council seats and getting a better reception in some working class areas than the left.
In my mid the best anti fascism is that of building a political alternative locally in working class communities but not one that is based on vote any one but BNP and that just because it is kicking off in the middle east then a revolution is possible here.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
yeh. but that would be sensible. and the left is generally anything but. there's also the allure of the distant, that something kicking off in cuba or egypt will attract supporters who would not show the same interest if it happened in france or ireland.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
One reason they haven't got a bigger foothold in my opinion, is because whether or not it is anything to do with anti-fascism, in most people's minds, the BNP have been most definitely tagged as a neofascist party. Something, however shit the mainstream parties, something most people would want nothing to do with.
At the end of the day, people pick up on a word, instead of addressing the whole post. There is no disagreement whatsoever over the issue of the necessity to build an alternative. An electoral alternative? Having been on the knocker in two failed attempts to build a 'reformist' with revolutionaries involved mass party, an electoral alternative, I have my doubts whether this is the best way to go. Obviously I could be wrong, and would love it if the Socialist party, whoever, proved me wrong. I really don't have any issue with that.
What I have an issue with, is this simplistic, nonsensical notion, that antifascism and building an alternative cannot be done at the same time. That the two activities cannot go hand-in-hand. That KPD mentality.
what you have an issue with is reality.
TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
agreed, you didn't write anything like that, wasn't suggesting you had. Crossed wires.
Don't really disagree with the rest of your post, yes it might lead to an increase in the neofascist vote. BUT turkeys don't over Christmas. I think the antifascist work has had an effect upon people's perception of the BNP, as neofascist.
What I'm simply saying is we should do what you say, with antifascist work as well.
TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
and you are perfectly free to be of that opinion. I simply disagree. I think you can do both, build anti fascism, and build an alternative. The two of them are not mutually exclusive. In fact, quite the contrary, because in the process of building anti-fascism, the topic of an alternative, quite naturally comes up.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
i thought you were talking about building AGAINST fascism rather than AFTER it. but your post suggests to me that as far as you're concerned before you're going to do anything about fascism we'll have to live under it. rather a fucking fail, i'd say.
Proper Tidy
Arsed
What is antifascism, in your view, RMP3?
If antifascism is defending the mainstream then I am no antifascist, to paraphrase a dying man with a beard.
If antifascism is defending the mainstream then I am no antifascist, to paraphrase a dying man with a beard.
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