Griffin and BNP strategy

[TremulousTetra]

good post, 39. I agree with it, however the picture is more complicated obviously.

Some points for consideration:

British social attitude surveys indicate that the BNP success has been assisted by a 'perfect storm' whereby issues like the recession, immigration, crime, Europe have become dominant issues. Prominent in this is a view that does not accept the government and industries position that immigration brings economic benefits.

The fact is immigration DOES bring economic benefits to uk PLC. UK PLC is the enemy, not immigrants, who are being raped and pillaged from the 3rd world.

The experience of many people is that their communities have changed with people from abroad coming in this has increased competition for services such as housing, health, schools etc and this churn in community weakens community cohesion and challenges host communities.

bnp voted against building houses, in barking i think, and lied about houses for africans.

Identity politics, multiculturalism favoured by the government racialises bothy the funding for social policy and social policy itself and pitches people against each other on the basis of race.in a period where representatives are very often chosen on the basis of race that the BNP will put themselves forward a representing whites.

This and the absence of class politics and a pro working class political movement creates the space for the BNP to grow.

Whilst there may be some impact of labelling the BNP as Nazis , exposing criminals in their midst this is countered by the fact their communications strategy emphasises patriotism not Nazism. It is estimated that there are broadly three types of BNP members ; those with links to NF and old BNP , political traveller who have previously trawled through different political parties and new members who are not likely to have been members of any other party and who genuinely do not associate themselves with neo Nazism.

Very true, but when you speak to them, they say if they believed they were nazi's they would ditch them, and many say griffin is a nazi racist liability.

The BNP has with some success built active local units with a presence that has more impact than the left very often focussing on local issues and community activism. They have done well in traditional working class areas, and unlike the NF attract first time voters, unemployed voters those who have stopped voting and now have voters for whom the BNP are their first choice. They are able to pick up votes on the doorstep because contrary to the BNP+nazis propaganda they come across as a serious political party with a fairly attractive agenda of what ever local issue they can find plus save the NHS, keeps jobs in Britain,anti globalisation, anti established three parties and their gravy train, , troops out of Iraq and Afghanistan . Add this to concerns on crime, recession, immigration and terrorism and it is quite easy to see that they have a reasonable product.

but is a fascade, which anti fascists can expose.

Don't vote Nazi without an alternative political choice enables the BNPO to come back time after time on the doorstep to challenge the motivation for this labelling as one that presents them as a victim of the three party monopoly in which they are misrepresented.

BNP voters analysis reveals that there is a strong correlation with age, low income, not educated to degree standard. The very people Denham initially said were dying out but are who are actually living longer and whose marginalisation with be further compounded by either a future labour or Tory govt.

The 'communities that have been left behind' initiative by the government is simply a short term attempt to dent the bNP vote and boost the labour vote in most areas. It is underfunded does not tackle the issues of employment , housing or public services ;it simply wants to communicate a 'different ' message by engaging with communities. There are no resources to meet the aspirations of those communities.

Despite infiltration, serious state disruption, a media that is anti BNP and no political allies the BNP are a successful political organsiation who have occupied the position of being the perceived fourth party. Ironically in a period where the left thought it would have that ambition.

A number of analysts have said that the BNP however need to break into new voter territory outside of the above if it is to be more than just an irritant . There is a school of thought that any expected two horse race in the general election could squeeze votes for UKIP/BNP/Greens but others would argue that the lack of credibility of the old parties creates space for 'new' parties.The BNP are sitting on a treasure chest through their success in the Euro elections.

I repeat again, I agree with all your post, but this does not rule out a mass community based anti-fascism, eg "Give up anti fascism".

 

[ViolentPanda]

look, you know that I am paralysed from the neck down. my hands are paralysed. That I have to rely upon the speech recognition. And this doesn't always work properly, so I have to rely on typing with my knuckles. Also speech-recognition etc, interferes with my trail of thought. and, yeah my own spelling aint that good.

As I've mentioned before, I use speech recognition software too, have done for 8 years (various versions of Dragon, mostly), and yet I have hardly any problems with either my spelling or my train of thought, and I don't have to edit or correct via typing.
As for your spelling, even the early speech recognition programs all have decent dictionaries.
Sounds like you rush things.

...but you fuck up because your constantly licking butchers arse. just take your tongue out of your leaders arse. it aint very anarchist.

How is saying someone obviously reads better than you write licking someone's arse? What it actually is, is an insult to your writing ability!

Still, easier to rant on about arse-licking, and that way you get to trundle through one of your favourite sexual fantasies, too!

BTW, my "leader"? You don't have a fucking scooby, do you?

 

[ViolentPanda]

your like a cult you lot.

Who is "you lot"?
I mean, besides anyone who disagrees with you and attica and balders, like.

bnp is known as nazis by many people, where this message has come from is clearly the anti fascist anl etc. even if the people do not perceive directly from the whom it came, they still believe the bnp are nazi, and that will play a part in their voting decision. obvious.

Hmm, when was the ANL formed/when did it get its name?
Was it back in the days when the leaders of the BNP and NF still dressed up in pseudo-SS uniforms and had houses crowded with Hitler memorabilia?
You know what? I rather think it was!!
So, does that make the label apposite now?
I rather think it doesn't! In fact I'd go as far as to say it's more than a little cringeworthy.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Utter rubbish, you've been chasing after me with tears in your eyes for over half a decade with this childish nonsense now, despite me making it plain to you time after time that i'm not going to take it or you seriously and instead would just largely ignore you. This little exchange over the last two days has reminded me exactly why - in the space of a few short posts you managed to to impute at least two positions to me that were the 100% precise opposite of what i've long argued and you chucked in an attempted race-based smear as well. Nevertheless, i persevered bravely on and made serious post after serious post, all the points of which you ignored in favour of starting up the tears again. Now i'm really really not interested.

You realy are a brain addled delusional god complex fuckwit if you believe any of that. Get fucking life you triping monkey.

 

[Streathamite]

Another thing that bugs me about this "you can only build an alternative" arguement, is it's kow towing to the fascist agenda. Seeing those who vote bnp concerns as prime, as some kind class vangaurd. It seems to get things upside down. We should build an alternative, but why start with the least progressive people? Surely those with the most progressive ideas, including amongst them anti fascist's, will be the most fertile ground?

Thew thingv you're overlooking here is the elementary socialist truth that you have to start any and every movement-building by aiming it at the working classes as a whole body, and the elememntary human truth that fairly large sections of the UK indigenous working classes have been historically pretty unprogressive, or at the very least highly susceptible to thoroughly unprogressive/xenophobic/reactionary ideas and calls.
That doesn't make them any less of the core group you simply have to win over: appealing to those most predisposed to agree with you is a) shooting a soft open goal b) missing the point

 

[TremulousTetra]

As I've mentioned before, I use speech recognition software too, have done for 8 years (various versions of Dragon, mostly), and yet I have hardly any problems with either my spelling or my train of thought, and I don't have to edit or correct via typing.
As for your spelling, even the early speech recognition programs all have decent dictionaries.
Sounds like you rush things.

Yup maybe I do. Yup I'm fallable. Cant realy use speech rec while son on x-box, wife cooking, duaghter singing etc. And mine don't work great. So like niw, have to type with knuckles. But WHO FUCKING cares! No one in their right mind. Going on about such trivia as spelling, is boring imho.

How is saying someone obviously reads better than you write licking someone's arse? What it actually is, is an insult to your writing ability!

God this is tedious. Again, it wasn't my writing it was balders. butch just can not compute what balders was saying.

Still, easier to rant on about arse-licking, and that way you get to trundle through one of your favourite sexual fantasies, too!

from lostock two smoking barrels, piss take of a truism.

BTW, my "leader"? You don't have a fucking scooby, do you?

Yeah kind of ironic aint it.


Fuck it. This has got out of hand. Carry on as you were, Don Quixote.

 

[Streathamite]

You might be right, but there again possibly wrong?

fairy snuff, but what can you offer to develop that further - stats, analysis of stats, other detail?

 

[TremulousTetra]

Thew thingv you're overlooking here is the elementary socialist truth that you have to start any and every movement-building by aiming it at the working classes as a whole body, and the elememntary human truth that fairly large sections of the UK indigenous working classes have been historically pretty unprogressive, or at the very least highly susceptible to thoroughly unprogressive/xenophobic/reactionary ideas and calls.
That doesn't make them any less of the core group you simply have to win over: appealing to those most predisposed to agree with you is a) shooting a soft open goal b) missing the point

You need to expand, because I agree with the 2nd half of paragraph 1, but don't understand your conclusion. Are you saying ie, in opposing SA apartied, you start with those that support it? Of course you don't, you start with the soft open goal appealing to those most predisposed to agree with you, to build a mass community based movement the forces of reaction you point to, cant resist, surely?

Same with anti-fascism, you start with the soft open goal appealing to those most predisposed to agree with you, to build a mass community based movement the forces of reaction you point to, cant resist, surely?

Please excuse my previous post's to butch n vp.

 

[TremulousTetra]

You started the point with the asertion that it is not working, it is therefore incumbent on you to provide evidence of this. YOU HAVE NONE.

Your list of the BNP successes is not proof that Hope Not Hate have not prevented the BNP growing faster than they have if opposition (ie Hope not Hate not active) was lacking. You haven't proved your side of the argument at all.

Butch could be right, but he could be wrong.

You might be right, but there again possibly wrong?

 

[Larry O'Hara]

Your list of the BNP successes is not proof that Hope Not Hate have not prevented the BNP growing faster than they have if opposition (ie Hope not Hate not active) was lacking.

Your praise for the Hope Not Hate New Labour/spook front noted. And now you must have the latest Notes From the Borderland analysing Hope Not Hate in some detail it cannot be said you have not had access to an alternative view.

As an ex-Big Flame member, might I point out to you that 'autonomy' in the sense BF used it meant independence from (among other things) the state--something that cannot be said for Hope Not Hate.

Good, however, for the clarification of exactly who you are lining up alongside nowadays....

 

[Larry O'Hara]

it is stupid to assert that Hope Not Hate has had no effect, or even acknowledge the possibility that they have had, however limited, an effect.

Oh, they've had an effect alright--the Searchlight/BBC 'Secret Agent' documentary, and resulting Race trial (which Griffin won) gave the BNP immense coverage and kudos in areas they were targeting. It so inspired Griffin, in the 2005 General Election he decided to stand in Keighley, featured in the programme.

So, your Searchlight friends definitely had an effect--though not quite the one apologists would claim on their behalf. Don't dismiss this as irrelevant--Lowles/Meszaros actually justify them being the 'experts' partly on the basis of this very documentary. My sources attending HNH franchise meetings up and down the country all confirm this.

 

[The39thStep]

All quite comical this 'autonomous anti fascism' which over the past two weeks has now been confirmed as handing out leaflets on the other side of the road to UAF , dropping in the odd reference to working class and now has shifted into supporting Hope Not Hate.

 

[The Black Hand]

Your praise for the Hope Not Hate New Labour/spook front noted. And now you must have the latest Notes From the Borderland analysing Hope Not Hate in some detail it cannot be said you have not had access to an alternative view.

As an ex-Big Flame member, might I point out to you that 'autonomy' in the sense BF used it meant independence from (among other things) the state--something that cannot be said for Hope Not Hate.

Good, however, for the clarification of exactly who you are lining up alongside nowadays....

That's just Ultra Left rubbish Larry. I have't read your Borderland piece on HnH yet, I hopefully will do so. Just because I have said they may have had an effect does not indicate support for them - you are just mirror image opposites sometimes. I am making a clear intellectual point that you have no evidence that they have not had an effect, this is not rocket science and should not result in hyperbolic rage. The ultra left has been called immature and it certainly looks like that is the case going on the anti fascist evidence around here. Making 'the most radical gestures' against them but lacking any alternative, certainly on a national level.

Thanks for the mag btw, I have posted you another with a clear editorial that talks about the area of autonomy (the political space) I have identified BETWEEN the ultra left (You/IWCA etc) and Searchlight/HnH/Labour. AS such, I am most definately treated with suspicion by BOTH sides, and tbh I do not care. I think you are both lacking, and that authentic independent people should be critical of both camps, and indeed all politics. The ultra left have got away with their impotent bullshit for far too long.

 

[The Black Hand]

sorry TBH but where/what was this choice in Jarrow?

Look at the independents, that council has about 10 council left independents, and one of them is below. The other indy was also on the left I think;

South Tyneside MBC Primrose ward

Ken Stephenson Labour 854 -42%
Pete Hodgkinson BNP 566 - 27.9%
Aaron Luke Independent 213 - 10.5%
David Alan Rice Independent 174 - 8.6%
Anthony James Lanaghan Conservative 124 - 6.1%
Susan Heather Troupe Liberal Democrats 100 -4.9%

 

[The Black Hand]

All quite comical this 'autonomous anti fascism' which over the past two weeks has now been confirmed as handing out leaflets on the other side of the road to UAF , dropping in the odd reference to working class and now has shifted into supporting Hope Not Hate.

That's rubbish 39. You are just unwilling to admit that people may see the best chance of firefighting the BNP is a Labour vote. It does not fill me with joy, but there IS NO ULTRA LEFT ALTERNATIVE. So, in this case, and in the future IMHO there will be a contradictory anti fascist process of becoming, and this is the authentic Hegelian Marxist position not ultra left, not anarchist, but operating anarchistically as a place of honour that resides between Necessity and desire.


Autonomous anti fasism is a tendency that has historically existed and continues to emerge more naturally than ultra left politics that lives on well beyond its sell by date cos they can gob off on U75. NOWHERE has ultra left politics emerged afresh, no groups etc.

Instead the politics that has emerged, without my encouragement in that Jarrow ward, is an anti fascism that is autonomous. Of course, one ward is not enough to say that it is a general tendency, but it is a start.

Some evidence of the AAF practice is here - Letter published in the South Shields Gazette and other local papers. They did canvassing and more too;

“Opponents of the BNP Unite Together

On Saturday 8th February a coalition of members from different political parties and organisations joined together outside Morrison’s store at Jarrow to oppose the British National Party (BNP) who have been canvassing the area with their hatred and lies.

Those gathered included Stephen Hepburn M.P. Alan Kerr, Deputy Leader South Tyneside Council, Shirley Ford – Green Party candidate for South Tyneside in the forthcoming election, Peter Murray, anti fascist campaigner and also, members from Tyne & Wear Anti Fascist Association (TWAFA) and Unite Against Fascism (UAF). Unions represented included members from Unison, Unite and the GMB. Stephen Hepburn M.P. agreed there was a need for joint action in opposing the BNP. Shirley Ford said “It was vital that every effort is made to stop Jarrow becoming the first place in the North East to vote Fascist and called on all reasonable people to look at what happens when fascists get power. Tens of millions of ordinary people were killed and murdered in the last war while the fascists then, the Nazis, never kept any of their promises and the poor actually got poorer while the rich stayed rich.

The protest was conducted by Tyne and Wear Left Unity which is calling for a coordinated response to stop the BNP at Jarrow. Vicki Gilbert from Left Unity and UAF and a Labour party member for over 50 years said she was very frightened that ordinary people would vote fascist in the hope of solving their problems and feeling that Labour had let them down. Vicki lost many of her family in the Holocaust and said the BNP’s racial policies are exactly like those of the Nazis. People should take a close look at these thugs and their racial hatred and lies ie. Blaming other poor people for our problems while never mentioning the capitalist system or those who benefit from it. The real answer is Labour has to start managing society for everyone and not just the wealthy, that’s how places like Jarrow will improve. Fascism with its hatred can never be the answer.

Paul Baker Tyne and Wear Left Unity"

 

[TremulousTetra]

I thought I would make another attempt.

The way I write is irrelevant, because butchers couldn't understand what balders, the black hand, MC5, or myself were saying.

Seriously, that's your reply? No alternative scenarios offered? No investigation of the stats? Nothing?

Didn't realise what TBH, Balders, MC5 and I accept, is the data is inconclusive. We accept that we can both look at the same facts, and still come to genuine conclusion different to yours VP.

It is this inablity to accept VP, by you and butch etc, that you cannot always argue everything through to a conclusion that everyone will accept, that is absurd. Not being able to accept people can look at the same facts as you, but come to a genuine conclusion different to yours, that leads you to say stupid things. Like the swp cc deceive the swp members for the CC's personal benefit, ie they want to be the new ruling class. That leads picks to suggest the CC have routinely and knowingly acted for the state. Beloid, the membership are deceived nodding dogs. For many to demand "give up anti-fascism". And so on.

I on the other hand not only accept you've come to a different conclusion on opposing fascism, I welcome it. I wish you every success. I hope your right, and I'm wrong. I'm not going to consider you lot liars, the enemy, to be destroyed. I just consider you wrong. I agree, to disagree fraternally. Why can’t you lot?

 

[Captain Hurrah]

this is the authentic Hegelian Marxist position not ultra left, not anarchist, but operating anarchistically as a place of honour that resides between Necessity and desire.

 

[TremulousTetra]

I am making a clear intellectual point that you have no evidence that they have not had an effect, this is not rocket science and should not result in hyperbolic rage.

Why do you think they do this?

Also interested in your pro's and cons regarding AAF, UAF, HNH.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Thew thingv you're overlooking here is the elementary socialist truth that you have to start any and every movement-building by aiming it at the working classes as a whole body..

Vanguardist!!
Me, I'd say the elementary truth of any movement (socialist or otherwise) that seeks to be truly equitable, is that it needs to proceed from "the people", not be "aimed at" them or foisted on them.

...and the elememntary human truth that fairly large sections of the UK indigenous working classes have been historically pretty unprogressive, or at the very least highly susceptible to thoroughly unprogressive/xenophobic/reactionary ideas and calls.

I'd say that the same is true of every class, and that "high susceptibility" tends to be more contingent among the working classes, usually varying alongside such "everyday" necessities as work.

That doesn't make them any less of the core group you simply have to win over: appealing to those most predisposed to agree with you is a) shooting a soft open goal b) missing the point

It is, however, easy, and still stimulates feelings of gratification.

 

[TremulousTetra]

This is a great example of what I was saying above. TBH's comments are 'common sense' and obvious to me. But I do believe to Capt they are genuinely incoherent. Don't we have to accept reality, that we all interpret the written word, according to our own experiences, perspective, politics and this distorts the writers meanings?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Yup maybe I do. Yup I'm fallable. Cant realy use speech rec while son on x-box, wife cooking, duaghter singing etc. And mine don't work great. So like niw, have to type with knuckles. But WHO FUCKING cares! No one in their right mind. Going on about such trivia as spelling, is boring imho.

So why the long self-pitying whine when I mentioned it?
Please don't tell me you were playing the "cripple card"! I thought you had a bit more self-respect!

God this is tedious. Again, it wasn't my writing it was balders. butch just can not compute what balders was saying.

I'm not talking about balders' writing ability, I;m talking about yours (whatever the reasons and excuses).

from lostock two smoking barrels, piss take of a truism.


Yeah kind of ironic aint it.


Fuck it. This has got out of hand. Carry on as you were, Don Quixote.

Fucking hell, a Trot who accuses others of tilting at windmills!

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

nice to see that anti-fascist unity is alive and well on these boards. The far right must be terrified of our cohesive agenda and strategies.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Vanguardist!!
Me, I'd say the elementary truth of any movement (socialist or otherwise) that seeks to be truly equitable, is that it needs to proceed from "the people", not be "aimed at" them or foisted on them.

Yes, as socialist worker constantly say's, the emancipation of the working class, has to be the ACT of the working class.

I'd say that the same is true of every class, and that "high susceptibility" tends to be more contingent among the working classes, usually varying alongside such "everyday" necessities as work.

Precisely, that's why as the sw repeats, in the working class, capitalism has created its own grave digger. As the workplace engenders a collective consciousness.
Didn't realise you acceted the concept of contradictory level is of consciousness. Don't think Butch does.

It is, however, easy, and still stimulates feelings of gratification.

And then you go and spoil it all, by saying stupid like, I love you.

 

[TremulousTetra]

So why the long self-pitying whine when I mentioned it?
Please don't tell me you were playing the "cripple card"! I thought you had a bit more self-respect!

I'm not talking about balders' writing ability, I;m talking about yours (whatever the reasons and excuses).

You asked me why, again, my writing is shit, so I answered. You then explained how you were superior. I accept your criticism. The writing issue is tedious to me, no more. Tilting at windmills.

However, this is more interesting http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=10368891&postcount=2986

Fucking hell, a Trot who accuses others of tilting at windmills!

A lot of your post's are nit picking, and fancifull attacks on strawmen you've created to represent views you disagree with. And I do not accuse ALL anarchist's of tilting at windmills, that would be sectarian wind mill tilting. Again, see the other post.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I thought I would make another attempt.

The way I write is irrelevant, because butchers couldn't understand what balders, the black hand, MC5, or myself were saying. Butch couldn't compute this.Didn't realise what TBH, Balders, MC5 and I accept, is the data is inconclusive. We accept that we can both look at the same facts, and still come to genuine conclusion different to yours VP.

I'll be polite.
I'm happy to accept, for example MC5's views as valid because I know of his work.
I'm not happy to accept tbaldwin's views without substantiation because he's talked so much toss (as well as baldfacedly lying) in the past.
TBH/attica: I accept that he believes what he says, and I know he's got his treasured doctorate so that the world knows how clever he is, but I also am well aware of how other politicised people view him (due to his self-aggrandising and occasionally destructive actions over the years). He likes to tar anyone who disagrees with his pronouncements as "ultra-left" (see above, for example). What does that say for the "genuineness" of his conclusions, hmm?
You: Your arguments are hard to follow, you veer into irrelevancy and personal attack at the slightest provocation, and the company you keep is poor. No doubt you feel the same with regard to me.

It is this inablity to accept VP, by you and butch etc, that you cannot always argue everything through to a conclusion that everyone will accept, that is absurd.

I don't believe that everyone should accept what I say, but I do believe that arguments should be taken to their conclusion, rather than people using devices ("ooh, you're ultra-left! You smell!" etc) to avoid responding or to allow them to pontificate.

Not being able to accept people can look at the same facts as you, but come to a genuine conclusion different to yours, that leads you to say stupid things. Like the swp cc deceive the swp members for the CC's personal benefit, ie they want to be the new ruling class. That leads picks to suggest the CC have routinely and knowingly acted for the state. Beloid, the membership are deceived nodding dogs. For many to demand "give up anti-fascism". And so on.

Let me get this right: I'm not allowed {by you} to draw a different conclusion from you, even though you've just told me I must allow others to do so?
Oh dearie me!

I on the other hand not only accept you've come to a different conclusion on opposing fascism, I welcome it.

Ja, und mein Gans schreibt ein Roman!

I wish you every success. I hope your right, and I'm wrong. I'm not going to consider you lot liars, the enemy, to be destroyed. I just consider you wrong. I agree, to disagree fraternally. Why can’t you lot?

Perhaps you need to re-read those instances where you believe that people don't agree to disagree. I can think of a couple of posts just on this thread whee people have done exactly that.

 

[ViolentPanda]

nice to see that anti-fascist unity is alive and well on these boards.

Unity matters on the streets and the doorstep, not on bulletin boards.

The far right must be terrified of our cohesive agenda and strategies.

The far right are currently in a position, due to economic and social circumstances, where a cohesive agenda and strategies, however well-shaped, won't do much good except to discourage waverers.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Yes, as socialist worker constantly say's, the emancipation of the working class, has to be the ACT of the working class.

The (unspoken) caveat being "...and we'll be happy to lend our knowledge and organisational skills to the working classes...", and that's not just the attitude of the Swappies (just in case you think I'm picking on them!) but of far too many "revolutionary left" groupings.

Precisely, that's why as the sw repeats, in the working class, capitalism has created its own grave digger. As the workplace engenders a collective consciousness.

Which is all very well (and "orthodox Marx" too). as well as accurate, but only as far as it goes, and in the ridiculousness and vileness of a post-industrial neo-liberal economy and the concomitant effects of that on social relations, it isn't enough to view everything through that lens. IMO a "wide-angle" view is more appropriate, one that accepts that the modern "working class(es)" consist not only of those who serve capital directly, in the workplace, but those of us who, for one reason or another, have been discarded by Capitalism.

Didn't realise you acceted the concept of contradictory level is of consciousness. Don't think Butch does.

As I've said to other posters on other threads, his posts are combative, and because they are (and because those they're replying to tend to skim-read them, from what I can make out, before rattling of an offended reply ), people often ascribe to him positions that are not ones he holds/

And then you go and spoil it all, by saying stupid like, I love you.

Be honest. How many times have you seen, at political gatherings (whatever the group/sect), a speaker take the easy route of preaching to the converted rather than trying to enthuse new blood?
Me, I've seen it so many times in the last 30 years that I'm a cynic.

 

[tbaldwin]

I'm not happy to accept tbaldwin's views without substantiation because he's talked so much toss (as well as baldfacedly lying) in the past.

Be interested in you posting up an example or 2 if thats what you believe? Is it ?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Be interested in you posting up an example or 2...

Like I'm going to go over 6 years of threads. pfftt.

...if thats what you believe? Is it ?

Would I have written it if I didn't believe it?

 

[tbaldwin]

Like I'm going to go over 6 years of threads. pfftt.

Would I have written it if I didn't believe it?

Wheres your evidence? Its a bit of a uncalled slur isnt it?