Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

Grenfell Tower fire in North Kensington - news and discussion

squirrelp said:
I'm a bit puzzled as to you guys. A minimising of the reported death toll to minimise public disorder is hardly a wild proposition especially with a Conservative government on the brink of failing.
Click to expand...
I am sure you can offer examples of minimised death tolls from recent years
 
Pickman's model said:
I am sure you can offer examples of minimised death tolls from recent years
Click to expand...
Do you want to help me out with the maths here?

The tower contained 127 flats, with 227 bedrooms, at the time of the fire
...
On 21 June, the government announced that 68 new flats in the same borough as Grenfell Tower are to be made available to survivors of the fire.
Click to expand...
I believe people have been displaced from nearby too
 
squirrelp said:
I'm a bit puzzled as to you guys. A minimising of the reported death toll to minimise public disorder is hardly a wild proposition especially with a Conservative government on the brink of failing.
Click to expand...

There's already been discussion on this thread as to why the currently known/reported death toll is likely to be a significant understatement of the actual figure, and recognition from most of us that there are legitimate logistical reasons why this might be.

It's a shame that Abbott has apparently spoken in such a way that the part of her statement which can be presented as DA having trouble with her figures again can be highlighted and the other reasonable points she's making can be minimised or ignored
“Grenfell Tower is not just an accident; Grenfell Tower is not just an unfortunate incident. Those hundreds of people that died are a direct consequence of Tory attitudes in social housing,” Ms Abbott told a conference of the Labour Progress group. "The Tories think people in social housing are second-class citizens. And, as we have seen from Grenfell House, they are offering them second-class standards of safety. So, a direct consequence of that. A direct consequence of outsourcing ... and a direct consequence of deregulation."

Ms Abbott said people in Government needed to answer questions about why they did not implement recommendations made after previous fires.
Click to expand...

It's also a shame that the Independent have chosen to highlight this aspect with such a clickbaity headline, and it's a shame that you've chosen to air your apparent conspiraloonery here, on what has mostly been a respectful and serious thread about this tragic subject.

(It's also a shame, though hardly a surprise, that DA has focussed entirely on current tory govt responsibility and failed to recognised that past Labour national government and current Labour local government also share some responsibility for the destruction of social housing and treating people in social housing as second-class citizens, including in her own Hackney constituency)
 
bi0boy said:
What, hundreds have died? Maybe she knows something we don't, but she says this knowledge that hundreds have died is based only on the block having 23 floors. She should really should shut up and stop feeding conspiracy theories.
Click to expand...
It may never be possible to discover the number of deaths. The council would gave a record of the tenants and the leaseholders. They may not have a record who lives win the tenant ,they would rely on the tenant actually informing them if the household had changed after the tenancy agreement had been signed. The tenancy agreement would have details of who was living there when they signed the agreement. The DWP records can add to the tally but there may be sub-letters and the actual tenant may not know who is living there, plus the leaseholders are supposed to inform the council if they rent the place but mostly don't.
 
andysays said:
There's already been discussion on this thread as to why the currently known/reported death toll is likely to be a significant understatement of the actual figure, and recognition from most of us that there are legitimate logistical reasons why this might be.
...

It's also a shame that the Independent have chosen to highlight this aspect with such a clickbaity headline, and it's a shame that you've chosen to air your apparent conspiraloonery here, on what has mostly been a respectful and serious thread about this tragic subject.
Click to expand...
How can you agree with the postulation and then simultaneously label it as 'conspiraloonery'?
 
bi0boy said:
What, hundreds have died? Maybe she knows something we don't, but she says this knowledge that hundreds have died is based only on the block having 23 floors. She should really should shut up and stop feeding conspiracy theories.
Click to expand...
Everybody knows that hundreds have died. We know that hundreds lived there (even if the exact number of hundreds is not known), we know the approximate number who've come out, and by now, the idea that there are loads of people who might have escaped but nobody knows about them is not really credible.
 
FridgeMagnet said:
Everybody knows that hundreds have died. We know that hundreds lived there (even if the exact number of hundreds is not known), we know the approximate number who've come out, and by now, the idea that there are loads of people who might have escaped but nobody knows about them is not really credible.
Click to expand...

You 'know'. this how?
 
What isn't credible is numbers based on guesswork My mates lived in LA sublet, so the same must be here. Extrapolation
 
The Royal Borough of Kensington & Chelsea has a 'Director for Housing' called Laura Johnson, who is apparently paid £88,000 p.a.

What exactly does Laura Johnson have to say about this disaster?
 
squirrelp said:
This daily mail article names 60 or so missing people presumably not accounted for in the death toll
How boy aged 9 became youngest Grenfell Tower hero | Daily Mail Online

I haven't found an account of someone escaping from the higher than the 17th floor.
Click to expand...
There was an Asian woman who rang her family from the 19th/18th floor landing telling them she couldn't get out and she was in the hands of God. Turns out she was in hospital for a few days surrounded by family before they found out that a fireman actually did get her out and she is now recovering.

Happy ending among Grenfell Tower despair as missing woman found alive
 
bi0boy said:
How many have come out, approximately?
Click to expand...
They're obviously not saying. The listed dead are "whole or near entire bodies" afaik, so anyone who was consumed by extreme heat or was very young wouldn't come up in that tally, nor would their families likely still be around to kick up a stink.

I think the worst one was the 42 people found together comforting each other as they burned. :(
 
xenon said:
What. Really? Come off it.
Click to expand...
Clearly it's absurd to say that we must assume that only people whose bodies have been formally identified are dead. At this point we have to estimate, and we will always have to because not all bodies are identifiable. It takes a while to identify bodies anyway and we don't and are unlikely to ever know how many people were actually there at the time. So yeah guessing.
 
FridgeMagnet said:
Clearly it's absurd to say that we must assume that only people whose bodies have been formally identified are dead. At this point we have to estimate, and we will always have to because not all bodies are identifiable. It takes a while to identify bodies anyway and we don't and are unlikely to ever know how many people were actually there at the time. So yeah guessing.
Click to expand...

The official estimates are not derived from a body count but from those reported missing.
 
FridgeMagnet said:
Clearly it's absurd to say that we must assume that only people whose bodies have been formally identified are dead. At this point we have to estimate, and we will always have to because not all bodies are identifiable. It takes a while to identify bodies anyway and we don't and are unlikely to ever know how many people were actually there at the time. So yeah guessing.
Click to expand...


Fair enough. Sadly likely to be the case. I mean it's worse than a plane being blown up in that respect.

Just get the hump with all the speculation I spose.
 
Corax said:
This isn't any comment on the petition, but only an observation on my own reaction to it, which I thought I may as well pass on for comment.

I don't believe I'm particularly special, so I assume my reaction's not unique.

I saw this post and immediately thought "Oh, another one" and scrolled on. I didn't even click on the link to see what the petition was for. It was just another petition for something that I probably thought was a good idea but eh, done loads of these and cba tbh. Change and Degrees clog most of my inbox up each day ffs. WTF does it achieve anyway.

In this case, fwiw, I checked myself and signed it. But there are countless examples to the contrary.

I'm not making a point (I think, maybe I am. FFS...), just an observation. And even if I'm not special or unique in this, it's still a bit of a depressing one when I look in the mirror. :(

Meh.
Click to expand...

99% of the time i'm exactly the same. I wonder what good it does. I think in this case, if nothing else the more people that sign then the family will feel more support, If nothing else then that's a good thing?
 
squirrelp said:
I'm a bit puzzled as to you guys. A minimising of the reported death toll to minimise public disorder is hardly a wild proposition especially with a Conservative government on the brink of failing.
Click to expand...
That would be impressive if there were any evidence for it beyond your belief that such a thing must, somehow, happen.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

PTK
Fire in Tower Block in Dagenham, London, Monday 26 August 2024.
Replies
24
Views
888
marty21
marty21
G
Kemi Badenoch discussion
3 4 5 6 7
Replies
186
Views
8K
GarveyLives
G
Aladdin
125 firefighters fight Fire at Somerset House
Replies
8
Views
482
Fozzie Bear
Fozzie Bear
BristolEcho
Barton House Tower Evacuated
Replies
16
Views
915
teuchter
teuchter
PR1Berske
UK election poll: Islington North
2 3 4 5 6
Replies
161
Views
6K
hitmouse
hitmouse
Back
Top Bottom