Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
I am sure you can offer examples of minimised death tolls from recent years
Grenfell Tower fire in North Kensington - news and discussion
- Thread starter JTG
- Start date
Do you want to help me out with the maths here?
I believe people have been displaced from nearby too
bluescreen
tofu eating wokerati
Just to take one thing from your raft of assumptions: the 68 flats to be made available to survivors of the fire aren't going to house all the survivors and no one has said they are. Many will remain in temporary accommodation.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Yeh. Pls tell me, where has anyone said these 68 flats are to house *all* the survivors?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
I don't want you to do the maths as you'd fuck it up
andysays
Love and solidarity
There's already been discussion on this thread as to why the currently known/reported death toll is likely to be a significant understatement of the actual figure, and recognition from most of us that there are legitimate logistical reasons why this might be.
It's a shame that Abbott has apparently spoken in such a way that the part of her statement which can be presented as DA having trouble with her figures again can be highlighted and the other reasonable points she's making can be minimised or ignored
It's also a shame that the Independent have chosen to highlight this aspect with such a clickbaity headline, and it's a shame that you've chosen to air your apparent conspiraloonery here, on what has mostly been a respectful and serious thread about this tragic subject.
(It's also a shame, though hardly a surprise, that DA has focussed entirely on current tory govt responsibility and failed to recognised that past Labour national government and current Labour local government also share some responsibility for the destruction of social housing and treating people in social housing as second-class citizens, including in her own Hackney constituency)
marty21
One on one? You're crazy.
It may never be possible to discover the number of deaths. The council would gave a record of the tenants and the leaseholders. They may not have a record who lives win the tenant ,they would rely on the tenant actually informing them if the household had changed after the tenancy agreement had been signed. The tenancy agreement would have details of who was living there when they signed the agreement. The DWP records can add to the tally but there may be sub-letters and the actual tenant may not know who is living there, plus the leaseholders are supposed to inform the council if they rent the place but mostly don't.
How can you agree with the postulation and then simultaneously label it as 'conspiraloonery'?
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
Everybody knows that hundreds have died. We know that hundreds lived there (even if the exact number of hundreds is not known), we know the approximate number who've come out, and by now, the idea that there are loads of people who might have escaped but nobody knows about them is not really credible.
You 'know'. this how?
This daily mail article names 60 or so missing people presumably not accounted for in the death toll
How boy aged 9 became youngest Grenfell Tower hero | Daily Mail Online
I haven't found an account of someone escaping from the higher than the 17th floor.
How boy aged 9 became youngest Grenfell Tower hero | Daily Mail Online
I haven't found an account of someone escaping from the higher than the 17th floor.
bi0boy
Power User
No, there are 79 officially missing presumed dead and the Mail has named 60 of them.
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
That post explains how.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
You obviously do.
GarveyLives
Well-Known Member
The Royal Borough of Kensington & Chelsea has a 'Director for Housing' called Laura Johnson, who is apparently paid £88,000 p.a.
What exactly does Laura Johnson have to say about this disaster?
What exactly does Laura Johnson have to say about this disaster?
Guessing then.
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
How would we know how many died without "guessing"?
bi0boy
Power User
How many died at Hilsborough? 500? We know thousands were there and approximately how many came out.
stuff_it
Too skool for cool
There was an Asian woman who rang her family from the 19th/18th floor landing telling them she couldn't get out and she was in the hands of God. Turns out she was in hospital for a few days surrounded by family before they found out that a fireman actually did get her out and she is now recovering.
Happy ending among Grenfell Tower despair as missing woman found alive
stuff_it
Too skool for cool
They're obviously not saying. The listed dead are "whole or near entire bodies" afaik, so anyone who was consumed by extreme heat or was very young wouldn't come up in that tally, nor would their families likely still be around to kick up a stink.
I think the worst one was the 42 people found together comforting each other as they burned.
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
Clearly it's absurd to say that we must assume that only people whose bodies have been formally identified are dead. At this point we have to estimate, and we will always have to because not all bodies are identifiable. It takes a while to identify bodies anyway and we don't and are unlikely to ever know how many people were actually there at the time. So yeah guessing.
bi0boy
Power User
The official estimates are not derived from a body count but from those reported missing.
Fair enough. Sadly likely to be the case. I mean it's worse than a plane being blown up in that respect.
Just get the hump with all the speculation I spose.
I think you are right on that one, thank you.
74drew
Well-Known Member
This isn't any comment on the petition, but only an observation on my own reaction to it, which I thought I may as well pass on for comment.
I don't believe I'm particularly special, so I assume my reaction's not unique.
I saw this post and immediately thought "Oh, another one" and scrolled on. I didn't even click on the link to see what the petition was for. It was just another petition for something that I probably thought was a good idea but eh, done loads of these and cba tbh. Change and Degrees clog most of my inbox up each day ffs. WTF does it achieve anyway.
In this case, fwiw, I checked myself and signed it. But there are countless examples to the contrary.
I'm not making a point (I think, maybe I am. FFS...), just an observation. And even if I'm not special or unique in this, it's still a bit of a depressing one when I look in the mirror.
Meh.
99% of the time i'm exactly the same. I wonder what good it does. I think in this case, if nothing else the more people that sign then the family will feel more support, If nothing else then that's a good thing?
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
That would be impressive if there were any evidence for it beyond your belief that such a thing must, somehow, happen.
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