Green Party's 'unapologetic, socialist broadcast'

[tangerinedream]

I'd vote UKIP as much as I'd vote BNP.

Exactly, voting ukip is a statement of support for bigotry as far as I can see. Whatever the underlying intention, it reads like the electorate support anti immigration anti foreigner sentiment.

 

[ymu]

I like the stuff about no narrow partisan lines or experienced campaigners dominating. I went to one SWP meeting when I was about 17 before I knew any better - i cant remember why i went - atracted by some poster about supporting socialsim i suppose but Jesus Christ, never a fucking gain. I was made to feel like an idiot by weird people twice my age jabbering at me about why I didn't support or know about issues that I'd never heard of, belittling me instead of explaining. It felt like some kind of weird initiation ceremony to cult or something and I wasn't especially naive about politics at 17. I could certainly hold my own with anyone I knew in the real world but this was like a sub strata of existence I'd never encountered. It left me thinking, if this is how they treat someone broadly sympathetic to the causes they championed then how the fuck will they ever appeal to anyone other than themselves. It wasn't especially the politics, it was the basic approach to communication. I've heard similar stories from loads of people. Whether or not there is anything in that movement electorally, I dunno, but that statement about the meeting rings true.

Yep! Have said it before ...

I never joined a grouplet (being a walking middle class cliche, I came to left politics via single issue stuff). But my partner did. He'd sit in a meeting where it was all pro-feminist sensitivity and let's set up a woman's caucus (heaven forbid they be allowed to feel equally heard in plenary). As soon as they were down the pub, it was get yer tits out for the lads. That and being made to speak at every meeting (see, we have a black member!) but never actually consulted about anything apart from how to get drugs or some dodgy gear for a gig was why he left in disgust.

The right is all about abusing power relations. It is not surprising there. On the left it is fucking inexcusable. And the extreme reaction against identity politics does lead some lefties to some seriously fucked up attitudes with respect to identity-related issues. IME, obv.

 

[treelover]

Some of the most predatory males I ever came across were from the left or the activist scene..

 

[two sheds]

Yes.

Two questions for you:

1) Who normally gains by fucking up the environment: the rich or the poor?
2) Who normally suffers when the environment's fucked up: the rich or the poor?

 

[nino_savatte]

I'm voting Whig.

This cunt would vote Whig if the party still existed (or so he tells us)

 

[ViolentPanda]

Just don't ask the unions representing council workers in Brighton

I saw the thread title and wondered "how many posts until articul8 comes along with a smear?".

The answer turned out to be 4.

 

[ViolentPanda]

ridiculous a) you mean you were trying to increase the taxes of working class people and b) you now plan to fire council workers and re-hire them on inferior pay and conditions.

I'm the last person to give a free pass to the Labour leadership, nationally or locally, but seriously....

Quoted for the massive comedy value, and humunguous self-awareness deficit on the part of the poster.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I intensely mistrust greens

They're okay if you have meat and potatoes with them, though.

 

[ViolentPanda]

oh labour lost my trust ages ago, I exercised my franchise first for Tony and we all know how much he did for the proleteriat.

Still, at least you didn't do a TrevHagl and vote Lib-Dem!!

 

[stuff_it]

Yeah, it's tough for people who don't like Labour very much. Sympathies. Vote for whoever you find most personable?

Ymu was actively excited about the idea of a parliament made up of disparate loonies, each with the balance of power. It was that scenario that seemed a bit of a strange thing to wish for.

Dunno, I'd say there's no way that wishing for an end to large scale party politics can be anything but admirable really.

Eh? The Green Party was launched by rich ex-Tories

And? If people aren't allowed to change their opinion of what is important then what really is the point?

Two questions for you:

1) Who normally gains by fucking up the environment: the rich or the poor?
2) Who normally suffers when the environment's fucked up: the rich or the poor?

I suspect that even the rich would like their children to be safely able to breathe the atmosphere on the surface of our planet for the forseeable.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I have been and still am willing to cut Labour a pretty undeserved amount of slack because I want them to be my party. Throw me anything, nationalise one corner shop, put tax up on billionaires by a tenner a month , just throw me a fucking morsel to keep me on board but every year it's a new test and a new kick in the bollocks. Did they have a meeting one day and say, "Tell you what - we'll invent the concept of Blue Labour just to see if we can make that Favelado cunt finally commit a spree killing. What do you reckon? Fucking ace isn't it? We've actually got the word blue in there. We'll really piss them off this time." Liam Byrne. Liam Byrne. What's he doing? His policies are miles to the right of Thatch or Major.

The problem is that Labour KNOW that they can count on you and people like you giving them one more chance, so they'll never change. They'll carry on being neoliberal cock-socks who're just slightly better than the Tories at doing "regretful" in front of the cameras when they hammer on the cuts.
Labour know that if a few of their shills occasionally make noises about Labour needing to move left, or about working from inside to move Labour leftward, then there are hundreds of thousands of voters who'll stand by them, on the vaguest promise of some kind of socialism, and they fucking love it.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Silas Loom

Ah, a Blairite returner...

No! You don't say!!!

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

And? If people aren't allowed to change their opinion of what is important then what really is the point?

I wasn't making a value judgement merely stating a fact in response to a statement I misread, I've explained this already keep up.

 

[Wilson]

The manifesto I want Labour to have.

I dont, Fuck Labour theyre shits

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

No! You don't say!!!

Who is it?

Not Maurice surely I thought he was someone else?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Who is it?

Not Maurice surely I thought he was someone else?

That'd be telling!

 

[elbows]

Green party manifestos have been full of all sorts of interesting socialist policies for years. The problem is that the amount of power they are ever likely to get in the UK is going to leave these policies in tatters due to compromise. And even if they had power on their own I dont necessarily expect them to pass the test. And there is a lot of baggage around environmental and energy issues that I cant budge when trying to discuss this stuff with people. So I have been reduced to playing a waiting game, waiting for the situation to manifest itself in ways that will shake up people priorities a bit.

We actually have a green councillor here in a town that is an unlikely location for the greens, but he got in via a NIMBY new housing estate issue.

 

[thedockerslad]

please explain, doesn't look like a room full of Trots, unless you mean they are all naïve and ready to be borged?

When you have a name like left unity you just know it is going to be full of the various varieties of trots, and other assorted authoritarian 'socialists'.

 

[thedockerslad]

did you read my post, Left unity could be that vehicle

oh, and believe it or not, i'm not shilling for them, not even a member, but something has to happen..

Maybe things are happening but you don't see it because you are looking in the wrong places.

 

[two sheds]

Yes.

Two questions for you:

1) Who normally gains by fucking up the environment: the rich or the poor?
2) Who normally suffers when the environment's fucked up: the rich or the poor?

No thoughts on this? Ignoring the environment is the worst sort of short-termism that I'd thought that only tories and (for example) east german socialists really went in for.

 

[Favelado]

Two questions for you:

1) Who normally gains by fucking up the environment: the rich or the poor?
2) Who normally suffers when the environment's fucked up: the rich or the poor?

No thoughts on this? Ignoring the environment is the worst sort of short-termism that I'd thought that only tories and (for example) east german socialists really went in for.

Ah, you asked again. I'm not asking for it to be ignored but I would like it to have less focus than it gets with the Greens. It's because I think that we're all basically fucked and it's short-termism to think that the planet isn't inevitably going to get completely mashed up as the population explodes. I guess I find the environmental question so hopeless that I ignore it. Which I admit is bad.

 

[coley]

Community Ground Rent now called Land Value Taxation:



from Green Party policies http://policy.greenparty.org.uk/ld

although I'm not sure whether it's actually instead of rents to private landlords - you'd hope so.

I haven't got a clue as to what they seem to be saying

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

Ah, you asked again. I'm not asking for it to be ignored but I would like it to have less focus than it gets with the Greens. It's because I think that we're all basically fucked and it's short-termism to think that the planet isn't inevitably going to get completely mashed up as the population explodes. I guess I find the environmental question so hopeless that I ignore it. Which I admit is bad.

What's this population explosion Thomas?

 

[coley]

Dunno, I'd say there's no way that wishing for an end to large scale party politics can be anything but admirable really.


And? If people aren't allowed to change their opinion of what is important then what really is the point?



I suspect that even the rich would like their children to be safely able to breathe the atmosphere on the surface of our planet for the forseeable.

Rest assured they would have the remaining good bits, we would be allowed to,inhabit the devastated wastelands.

 

[Favelado]

What's this population explosion Thomas?

The planet's got another couple of billion on the way.

 

[two sheds]

I haven't got a clue as to what they seem to be saying

Yes it is a bit crap. As I understand it ...

land is owned by the privileged few (imo going back to the people they inherited it off who, essentially, far enough back stole it from society as a whole by saying 'this is mine I'm defending it from you plebs who can all fuck off').

Gaining planning permission for land greatly magnifies its value which becomes a windfall profit for the owner while it is actually the rest of society that increases the value by paying for the infrastructure. That windfall profit pushes up the cost of houses and the cost of rents for everyone else. That profit could instead be distributed between people rather than benefiting the few.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

The planet's got another couple of billion on the way.

Would you like to point to reputable sources that show this and at the same time explain why this would be a problem please?

 

[Meltingpot]

Would you like to point to reputable sources that show this

Only a summary, because you have to pay for the actual article;

http://vitalsigns.worldwatch.org/vs-trend/population-growth-steady-recent-years

and at the same time explain why this would be a problem please?

Someone else has done it first;

http://davidmdelaney.com/overshoot-in-a-nutshell.html

 

[free spirit]

Would you like to point to reputable sources that show this and at the same time explain why this would be a problem please?

tbf the UN predicts population topping out around 9-10 billion, so that part of the statement isn't particularly in dispute.

how much of an issue that is, is a massive can of worms, and tbh I seriously doubt that Favelado has the slightest clue about it beyond an instinctive reaction and some vague malthusian notions.

 

[Favelado]

tbf the UN predicts population topping out around 9-10 billion, so that part of the statement isn't particularly in dispute.

how much of an issue that is, is a massive can of worms, and tbh I seriously doubt that Favelado has the slightest clue about it beyond an instinctive reaction and some vague malthusian notions.

You're spot on.