Green Party's 'unapologetic, socialist broadcast'

[Maurice Picarda]

So who are you advocating I vote for? Last time the choice was something like, the big 3 plus ukip and bnp. I can't be certain about the last one, possibly the bnp was a local election. None of the big 3 represent my beliefs about state owned services/utilities the other two I'd rather get run over than vote for. Surely I should vote for the nearest fit ideologically to my core belief, not simply vote labour because once upon a time they nationalised something. Or do I have to vote for whoever will win as long as its not the Tories? How is the state of the debate ever going to improve if the desire for genuine left ideas, such as wide scale nationalisation are not given support at the ballot box? No credible party will ever support them unless they become electorally credible. No left party will ever gain traction unless those ideas are seen to be worthy of media attention. I can't see how they will become credible ideas in the view of the mainstream without people en masse making a stand to say, fuck it, I'm voting for it. Labour are not worthy of support. They've had two years to do anything, something and so far I can't think of a single thing that excites me a tiny little bit about the current Labour Party. Voting labour is just a vote for centre right status quo. I don't especially want to vote green, but like I say? Persuade me otherwise.

Yeah, it's tough for people who don't like Labour very much. Sympathies. Vote for whoever you find most personable?

Ymu was actively excited about the idea of a parliament made up of disparate loonies, each with the balance of power. It was that scenario that seemed a bit of a strange thing to wish for.

 

[thedockerslad]

I'd like all the members of the SWP join the Greens, theres plenty of decent people there that could really achieve something positive and make the Green Party firmly left

 

[DotCommunist]

I refuse to let the jolly green giant sideline the class struggle. Have you ever met greens? They are to a (wo)man the sort of people who would sacrice you to the Corn God but not argue your back in a labour dispute

 

[Corax]

Yeah, it's tough for people who don't like Labour very much. Sympathies. Vote for whoever you find most personable?

Ymu was actively excited about the idea of a parliament made up of disparate loonies, each with the balance of power. It was that scenario that seemed a bit of a strange thing to wish for.

I dunno - might be a decent step towards complete social and economic collapse, and hence the revolution comrade.

 

[tangerinedream]

Yeah, it's tough for people who don't like Labour very much. Sympathies. Vote for whoever you find most personable?

Ymu was actively excited about the idea of a parliament made up of disparate loonies, each with the balance of power. It was that scenario that seemed a bit of a strange thing to wish for.

I read it as ymu being in favour of a leftist block vote as a statement to try to put such ideas on the agenda. Yes, the result is quite unappealing but is it worse than the status quo? You've got a lot of young voters who voted lib dem who will never do so again, a lot of fed up traditional labour voters and a lot of people politicised by the cuts/banking crisis who could be reached by a simple coherent straightforward socialist manifesto. Can the left serve up such a thing without turning on itself? The time is now, surely. If not now, when?

 

[IC3D]

Well if everyone left the SWP they would have a tasty share of the party vote in the Greens, what half or third and be able to tap into the working class student electorate

I refuse to let the jolly green giant sideline the class struggle. Have you ever met greens? They are to a (wo)man the sort of people who would sacrice you to the Corn God but not argue your back in a labour dispute

My plan for an SWP faction would crush them with numbers

 

[Favelado]

So who are you advocating I vote for? Last time the choice was something like, the big 3 plus ukip and bnp. I can't be certain about the last one, possibly the bnp was a local election. None of the big 3 represent my beliefs about state owned services/utilities the other two I'd rather get run over than vote for. Surely I should vote for the nearest fit ideologically to my core belief, not simply vote labour because once upon a time they nationalised something. Or do I have to vote for whoever will win as long as its not the Tories? How is the state of the debate ever going to improve if the desire for genuine left ideas, such as wide scale nationalisation are not given support at the ballot box? No credible party will ever support them unless they become electorally credible. No left party will ever gain traction unless those ideas are seen to be worthy of media attention. I can't see how they will become credible ideas in the view of the mainstream without people en masse making a stand to say, fuck it, I'm voting for it. Labour are not worthy of support. They've had two years to do anything, something and so far I can't think of a single thing that excites me a tiny little bit about the current Labour Party. Voting labour is just a vote for centre right status quo. I don't especially want to vote green, but like I say? Persuade me otherwise.

I have been and still am willing to cut Labour a pretty undeserved amount of slack because I want them to be my party. Throw me anything, nationalise one corner shop, put tax up on billionaires by a tenner a month , just throw me a fucking morsel to keep me on board but every year it's a new test and a new kick in the bollocks. Did they have a meeting one day and say, "Tell you what - we'll invent the concept of Blue Labour just to see if we can make that Favelado cunt finally commit a spree killing. What do you reckon? Fucking ace isn't it? We've actually got the word blue in there. We'll really piss them off this time." Liam Byrne. Liam Byrne. What's he doing? His policies are miles to the right of Thatch or Major.

The crisis is slowly radicalising me (as well as exposure to U75) but I'm Old Labour at heart, why's there no space for such a moderate position in the mainstream? I suppose I know the answer and it's because everything is geared to a handful of twats in swing constituencies.

Where am I going with this? Oh yeah, the Greens. I could vote for them maybe even though I don't care that much about the environment.

 

[free spirit]

Perhaps you can explain the "green economy", then.

the part of the economy dedicated to reducing the energy intensity, carbon intensity and environmental impact of our economy and society...

or the sector responsible for delivering 1/3 of the UK's economic growth in recent years. Perhaps you could explain why you'd prefer to do without that growth and jobs, and leave the UK more vulnerable to ever rising imported energy costs?

 

[Favelado]

So you'd like the greens more if they believed in fucking up the environment like the rest of them?

Yes.

 

[where to]

I'm advocating an anti-Tory (blue, yellow or red) tactical vote. What that vote is depends in your consitituency

If you are advocating an anti-Tory vote for Ukip you need your head examined. IF you are that is.

 

[two sheds]

Yes.

spoken like a true tory

 

[Maurice Picarda]

the sector responsible for delivering 1/3 of the UK's economic growth in recent years.

1/3 of hardly anything is not that impressive. Anyway, what's the source for that?

 

[tangerinedream]

I have been and still am willing to cut Labour a pretty undeserved amount of slack because I want them to be my party. Throw me anything, nationalise one corner shop, put tax up on billionaires by a tenner a month , just throw me a fucking morsel to keep me on board but every year it's a new test and a new kick in the bollocks. Did they have a meeting one day and say, "Tell you what - we'll invent the concept of Blue Labour just to see if we can make that Favelado cunt finally commit a spree killing. What do you reckon? Fucking ace isn't it? We've actually got the word blue in there. We'll really piss them off this time." Liam Byrne. Liam Byrne. What's he doing? His policies are miles to the right of Thatch or Major.

The crisis is slowly radicalising me (as well as exposure to U75) but I'm Old Labour at heart, why's there no space for such a moderate position in the mainstream? I suppose I know the answer and it's because everything is geared to a handful of twats in swing constituencies.

Where am I going with this? Oh yeah, the Greens. I could vote for them maybe even though I don't care that much about the environment.

So we who aren't in that handful need to make our constituencies count. Maybe by even pretending to ourselves we have an option. I dunno, I'm not convincing myself totally, but I have to believe that there is something vaguely optimistic about the process of the next election.

 

[free spirit]

1/3 of hardly anything is not that impressive. Anyway, what's the source for that?

true, but still not bad for a relatively small sector of the economy, and don't forget that this growth is based in large part on a UK supply chain for eg scaffolding, deliveries etc - for example, solar PV propped up most UK scaf firms through the last 3 years, we were by far our scaf suppliers biggest customers for most of 2011-12.

source for the figure is the CBI, though on checking it, it was only 2011 that the 1/3 figure applied for, as it obviously depends on the growth rate for the rest of the economy.

This growth translates into investment and jobs on the ground, with the latest government figures showing that around 940,000 people were employed in green business in 2010/112.

so that'd be nearly an extra million directly on the dole without the green economy. Fact is, that energy saving and renewable energy employ far more people in the UK per kWh generated / saved than fossil fuel power stations using imported fossil fuels, and that employment is well distributed across the UK rather than being concentrated in just one part of the country.

 

[tangerinedream]

It does make basic sense that a country should seek to be self sufficient in energy. It also appears logical that the renewable energy industry is at least a major part of the future supply of energy and therefore should be invested in. I don't really know whether it creates lots of jobs, but it surely creates more than buying coal and oil from abroad. Is it not the 21st century equivalent of the NCB or am I over simplifying it?

 

[ymu]

So your tactical voting idea would include voting UKIP where they're best placed to beat the Tories then?

That is what I have said, twice, yes.

 

[where to]

That is what I have said, twice, yes.

What is your objective, and what is the purpose of your objective.

 

[tangerinedream]

That is what I have said, twice, yes.

Sorry, you've lost my vote there.

 

[8115]

I've heard before once or twice that the Green party are actually quite right wing. But that does sound quite good.

Although the Conservative party broadcast the other day said they've cut the deficit by a third already, so I'm not sure I 100% believe everything said in party political broadcasts.

 

[free spirit]

That is what I have said, twice, yes.

I can sort of understand encouraging tories to vote for UKIP in the hope of splitting the vote, but what exactly would you hope to achieve by getting left wingers to tactically vote for UKIP?

As far as I can see, you'd either end up with a tory or UKIP getting elected, neither of which is a pleasant result.

 

[tangerinedream]

I don't see how voting ukip advances the cause of anyone other than ukip. It doesn't make a statement anything other than people want more right wing policy. I don't see how a protest vote for something that is worse than the thing you are protesting about works.

 

[tangerinedream]

I've heard before once or twice that the Green party are actually quite right wing. But that does sound quite good.

Although the Conservative party broadcast the other day said they've cut the deficit by a third already, so I'm not sure I 100% believe everything said in party political broadcasts.

The roots of some environmentalism is distinctly dodgy new age fascistic stuff. Then again, the roots of Blair could be said to be peterloo and all of that.

 

[8115]

The roots of some environmentalism is distinctly dodgy new age fascistic stuff. Then again, the roots of Blair could be said to be peterloo and all of that.

Oh yeah, the whole, "land" thing? Fuck that.

 

[free spirit]

I voted lib dem to keep the tories out last time, so I have some experience with this sort of thing... I'll not be voting UKIP.

 

[Favelado]

The Green's manifesto is explicitly Old Labour in much of what it says. The PPB doesn't hide a right-wing agenda in terms of party policy - although I know nothing of the politicians in the party themselves.

 

[ymu]

Yeah, it's tough for people who don't like Labour very much. Sympathies. Vote for whoever you find most personable?

Ymu was actively excited about the idea of a parliament made up of disparate loonies, each with the balance of power. It was that scenario that seemed a bit of a strange thing to wish for.

I did think it might make revolution a bit easier to sneak under the wire, but mainly, I don't want to be stuck going back and forth between two neo-liberal parties with or without neo-liberal jnr onside. "Oh no, things might be run incompetently for a bit" or "I might end up having to vote UKIP once, I'd rather have the Tories or Labour forever" don't strike me as reasonable responses. If there's another plan, I am all ears.

 

[free spirit]

The roots of some environmentalism is distinctly dodgy new age fascistic stuff. Then again, the roots of Blair could be said to be peterloo and all of that.

by the same token though, the roots of most of it is pretty socialist / co-operative.

 

[tangerinedream]

Oh yeah, the whole, "land" thing? Fuck that.

Purity and nature and natural orders of stuff, yeah, it's what has always stopped me voting green instinctively, the idea that you scratch the surface and that's under there. But maybe that's just my prejudice. Like I say, Blair has about as much to do with socialism as thatcher so, why can't the greens move beyond that?

 

[ymu]

I read it as ymu being in favour of a leftist block vote as a statement to try to put such ideas on the agenda. Yes, the result is quite unappealing but is it worse than the status quo? You've got a lot of young voters who voted lib dem who will never do so again, a lot of fed up traditional labour voters and a lot of people politicised by the cuts/banking crisis who could be reached by a simple coherent straightforward socialist manifesto. Can the left serve up such a thing without turning on itself? The time is now, surely. If not now, when?

And rightist. No point letting the Tories win control. UKIP is the right 4th party if only they can beat them.

 

[where to]

I did think it might make revolution a bit easier to sneak under the wire, but mainly, I don't want to be stuck going back and forth between two neo-liberal parties with or without neo-liberal jnr onside. "Oh no, things might be run incompetently for a bit" or "I might end up having to vote UKIP once, I'd rather have the Tories or Labour forever" don't strike me as reasonable responses. If there's another plan, I am all ears.

You realise ukip are no less neo liberal right?