cesare
shady's dreams ♥
I'm not. I'm replying to you.Fair point. Although tbf it's you who is still discussing him.
Goldsmiths University Diversity officer facing sack
- Thread starter Fingers
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Which was in reply to you.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
Which was in reply to the outing of *******.
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I don't think I'm going to win this.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
The Dawkins meme occurs to me.
No Facebook.
seventh bullet
sovietwave
I'm sorry for saying it was him, or did someone do it before me? Whatever, I shouldn't have done it, if he comes back here (which I doubt, and I never knew about the racism). I'm not going over there, though, with all the posh kids.
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
It was answering a post that seemed to me to suggest that the British Army was more progressive than anyone with ??my opinions, so was pointing out that wasn't necessarily a great piece of evidence for progressiveness.
If it's being taken that I think trans people are in some way crazy capitalist war-mongers and driving an ideology that supports that, then that is completely a wrong interpretation - and I hope that my other posts on this thread would be evidence for that.
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
But imo it's on the good-natured end of the spectrum for (a) the delicacy of the subject, (b) the strength of emotional content and (c) that it's being conducted on a bulletin board with all the risks of mis-reading, grandstanding, minor careless use of language etc that makes it a high-risk subject.
likesfish
You can't park here sir
no the thing is the British army (about as far from progressive as you could hope to get) has less problems with trans people than people who claim to be progressive and feminist who you'd kind of expect to be on the side of trans people seeing as being murdered for being trans is still a thing
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
But that's missing the bit that I - and I suspect others - had a problem with. You said:
The question remains: why do you think a pro-capitalist military might find it 'surprisingly easy' to adopt a version of trans ideology? You made that suggestion, you seem to be suggesting that is what has happened. What is it about this version of trans ideology that is so compatible with the military in your view?
I think what you say is correct for most of the thread. From reading the thread it seems most people have learnt something or at least engaged with differing viewpoints which is probably the point of a politics board. There is a process and that is one of the things that I think a lot intersectionality types miss. People need to learn. Unless you are trans, close to someone who is, an activist, academic or organising safe spaces how often does it come up? If someone doesn't understand or thinks they do but are willing to listen, is the best things to do throw abuse about them being exclusionary or whatever? I get that it is not right for people to have to explain their life choices to everyone in every situation for example the asshole at a talk at local feminist group recently who expected the members to explain the history of feminism to them rather than engage with the issues of the talk but calling yourself an activist and talking publicly and then refusing to engage with people who haven't already reached the same conclusions as you seems like a dead end but a good way to score points.
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Sea Star
have you ever explored your dark side?
A lot of people still thinking trans is about dressing, appearance and behaviour when it is actually about a deep seated part of personal identity that cannot be changed.
I dressed and behaved as a woman for a long time before transitioning but as i was still idebtifying as and being identified as a man it did nothing to hold off my self hate and disconnect.
Cis people who are happy to be called male or female exactly as described on their birth certificate also have gender identity that they first became aware of around age 4 but because its in sync with and not in collison with their physical self they dont realise.
Gender dysphoria is only something that happens to people who are trans and therefore only we understand, so its shocking that so many people wont listen to us.
A prevalent tactic by TE feminists is to claim that it is a male strategy to undermine feminism is undermined by the fact that trans is experienced by men and women equally, and that we mostly have remarkably similar experiences.
And what next - are we going to discuss whether homosexuality is a real thing, a confidence trick a delusion or mental illness?
I dressed and behaved as a woman for a long time before transitioning but as i was still idebtifying as and being identified as a man it did nothing to hold off my self hate and disconnect.
Cis people who are happy to be called male or female exactly as described on their birth certificate also have gender identity that they first became aware of around age 4 but because its in sync with and not in collison with their physical self they dont realise.
Gender dysphoria is only something that happens to people who are trans and therefore only we understand, so its shocking that so many people wont listen to us.
A prevalent tactic by TE feminists is to claim that it is a male strategy to undermine feminism is undermined by the fact that trans is experienced by men and women equally, and that we mostly have remarkably similar experiences.
And what next - are we going to discuss whether homosexuality is a real thing, a confidence trick a delusion or mental illness?
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ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Not least because essentialising or naturalising a characteristic is an act of concretising "it means this, and nothing else", when we're in constant evolution socio-culturally - what a "real woman" is, is constantly changing.
If I were bloody-minded, I'd point out to trans-exclusionary folk that essentialism isn't evolutionary or revolutionary, it's reactionary and conservative.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Sure.
Who gets to do the defining, though - all women, or just those that shout loudest and/or longest?
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
Because there's a version of trans ideology that says men and women are quintessentially different from each other but that some individuals are born in the wrong body - ergo, change the body and the contradiction ends, no other (social or political) changes necessary. The Army obviously doesn't have any problem with this.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
A lot of people on here?
I described my behaviour and my dress as an 8 year old to relate an experience of difficulty with my gender but I made it clear that this wasn't the same as an experience of feeling like I was in the wrong body, it wasn't an equation I was making.
But you're saying that its not a continuum, but something qualitatively different?
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
For me this is the question.
Sea Star
have you ever explored your dark side?
I havent actually read your post and i havent got time to now. And my post was not directed at you but to those having the academic discussion about trans without including the experiences of trans people.
Edit - answered part of your point below
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co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
AS I don't know if you have me on ignore but I feel that this comment ^^ is unfair and nothing that has been posted on this thread could be taken as a step towards this position.
In fact one of the most (state/official ideological) homophobic countries in the world - Iran - is also one of the most transphile, since transitioning is seen as the "cure" for homosexuality. Ops are state-funded (allegedly, even forced).
But there's absolutely no way I would start suggesting that anyone putting forward a binary gender position is arguing in favour of this kind of madness - even though it's absolutely consistent with the concept of gender dysphoria etc.
Sea Star
have you ever explored your dark side?
I believe that f to m is just something that trans exclusionists would prefer not to acknowledge. I actually know more ftMs than mtfs and discussions I've had with fTm friends about their trans experience lead to me concluding it is the same in men and women.
Ftms tend to find that they can transition with less attention and generally receive less abuse and tend to pass better after hormones and surgery.
They're kind of invisible even though latest estimates are that there is no gender difference in numbers of trans people
Sea Star
have you ever explored your dark side?
And there's a strong argument that trans kids aren't socialised as either gender because they are so keen to reject one and unable to embrace the other.
Also I had this discussion with a cis feminist friend of mine and I blithely trotted out the socialised as a male line and she said, well, how were you socialised as a male?
And it's true - all attempts to turn me into a man failed utterly. Probably helped by the fact that I am autistic.
Sea Star
have you ever explored your dark side?
Yes it's different. I've see trans women who seem perfectly happy with "male stuff" and fit in with male friends. I didn't do too badly as a man for twenty years.
Lots of cis men are happy being not at all male in a stereotypical sense and vice versa for many cis women.
So these people transition and are continue to follow same pursuits as before - loads of trans women like sport and do "manly" pursuits through choice as do many cis women - this is not what I'm talking about. This is not trans. It is a continuum - gender identity and gender identity are both continuum but they are two different continuums and don't necessarily completely match up in an individual. Mainly because gender expression is a construct but gender identity isn't.
likesfish
You can't park here sir
possibly the army just see's the trans person as a person and a soldier so if they can still do the job then transformation is not a huge problem.
but then the British army doesn't get hung up on theory and couldnt give a monkeys about your oppression or not just can you do the job you signed up to do.
but then the British army doesn't get hung up on theory and couldnt give a monkeys about your oppression or not just can you do the job you signed up to do.
I wasn't really talking about the choice, or lack of it, to pursue what are seen as gendered activities, I was referring to the existence of varying degrees of identity confusion in relation to gender.
Sea Star
have you ever explored your dark side?
I've never been confused. I've always been pretty certain i am female.
Vintage Paw
dead stare and computer glare
It's not an attempt to shut down anything. It's a reaction to what I've read. I suppose it's easy to think something is interesting and good natured and in good faith if it's not your existence under the microscope.
Blagsta
Minimum cage, maximum cage
The discussion has been respectful IMO. I do understand how it may also be uncomfortable for some people. Is that a reason to not discuss things? How else do opinions get challenged without some uncomfortable discussion?
I was going to edit my post because I understand that you don't feel confused.
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