Goldsmiths University Diversity officer facing sack

[Citizen66]

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Who is Harry Akram? He's mates with people on here so don't be shy.

 

[Citizen66]

They're saying white trash can't be racist. Of course it can't, because it's a dig at social class not race. How much did their education cost?

 

[Blagsta]

I've stopped engaging with them. It's pointless, all you get is abuse.

 

[co-op]

to be clear then for pedants - idenitfying with gender that was assigned from birth not identifying from birth with their assigned gender.

Being accused of pedantry by someone who has happily spent pages on the actual, precise meaning of one word and it's variant antonyms etc is interesting.

It's kind of an important distinction wouldn't you say? If - as your mistake suggests - gender-identity is innate and born with the individual then of course the whole trans* narrative ("a women trapped - born - in a man's body") makes complete sense. If gender-identity isn't innate (which it obviously isn't, I guess we all agree? Since so much of it is socially created) then I question whether that narrative does make sense.

 

[Sea Star]

It's kind of an important distinction wouldn't you say? If - as your mistake suggests - gender-identity is innate and born with the individual then of course the whole trans* narrative ("a women trapped - born - in a man's body") makes complete sense. If gender-identity isn't innate (which it obviously isn't, I guess we all agree? Since so much of it is socially created) then I question whether that narrative does make sense.

wasn't it clear what i meant? - if it was ambiguous you could have asked, instead you assumed something I didn't intend.

Being accused of pedantry by someone who has happily spent pages on the actual, precise meaning of one word and it's variant antonyms etc is interesting.

excuse me? What word?

If gender-identity isn't innate (which it obviously isn't, I guess we all agree? Since so much of it is socially created) then I question whether that narrative does make sense.

Did I say so much that is gender was not socially created? However all the evidence is that children know what gender they are from age 4 and that includes trans children.

 

[co-op]

wasn't it clear what i meant - if it was ambiguous you could have asked, instead you assumed something I didn't intend.

It wasn't ambiguous, it was wrong (imo - and you amended it to agree with that).

 

[Sea Star]

It wasn't ambiguous, it was wrong (imo - and you amended it to agree with that).

it wasn't wrong - i told you what i meant. It wasn't what you said.

 

[Sea Star]

It wasn't ambiguous, it was wrong (imo - and you amended it to agree with that).

since you're so obviously out to attack me rather than talk, and I just know you're going to call me a man at some point, I'm putting you on ignore.

 

[co-op]

it wasn't wrong - i told you what i meant. It wasn't what you said.

You altered it to agree with my query of it ("for pedants")? I'm not following what you're saying here.

 

[Treacle Toes]

It wasn't ambiguous, it was wrong (imo - and you amended it to agree with that).

Loads of us read that and knew what she meant. Why didn't you? What are actually upset with her for?

 

[co-op]

since you're so obviously out to attack me rather than talk, and I just know you're going to call me a man at some point, I'm putting you on ignore.

I kind of knew this was coming, and just for the record I would never call a mtf trans person a man.

 

[Treacle Toes]

You altered it to agree with my query of it ("for pedants")? I'm not following what you're saying here.

Pick, pick, pick, pick

 

[Citizen66]

Because internets.

 

[co-op]

Loads of us read that and knew what she meant. Why didn't you? What are actually upset with her for?

You mean *you* read it and knew, I think.

She actually changed her post ("for the benefit of pedants" or similar phrase) - to agree with my query of the initial post so why either she - or you - are getting pissed off about this I don't understand (except of course the now-seemingly inevitable end point of any attempt to discuss this, i.e. I am a gibbering transphobe).

 

[co-op]

Pick, pick, pick, pick

You don't think it's wrong to say a baby identifies from birth with its assigned gender? Since that's a claim that's consistent with at least some trans theorising here it's legitimate to question it. Turns out it wasn't what AS was claiming, just bulletin board lose language - nothing wrong with that*. So why all the agg?

eta - apart from the fact it's wrong, obvs

 

[Treacle Toes]

You mean *you* read it and knew, I think.

No I am sure others did too. Hence them not pick, pick, picking unnecessarily.

She actually changed her post ("for the benefit of pedants" or similar phrase) - to agree with my query of the initial post so why either she - or you - are getting pissed off about this I don't understand (except of course the now-seemingly inevitable end point of any attempt to discuss this, i.e. I am a gibbering transphobe).

So what if she changed it? She changed it so no one else can come along and make a fuss about nothing perhaps?

Being accused of pedantry by someone who has happily spent pages on the actual, precise meaning of one word and it's variant antonyms etc is interesting.

She didn't though did she. She explained, clarified, simplified, clarified again for the benefit of those who were engaging with her. What's interesting here is that you are ignoring that fact.

 

[co-op]

So what if she changed it? She changed it so no one else can come along and make a fuss about nothing perhaps?

She changed because (I think) she had said something she didn't mean. Is asking questions of trans people always "making a fuss"?

 

[Treacle Toes]

She changed because (I think) she had said something she didn't mean. Is asking questions of trans people always "making a fuss"?

Showing your true colours there I think.

 

[co-op]

Honestly, this is rubbish Rutita1. And going no where. Sorry for "making a fuss".

 

[killer b]

Showing your true colours there I think.

This is out of order.

 

[Treacle Toes]

This is out of order.

This question was out of order I think.

Is asking questions of trans people always "making a fuss"?

 

[Pickman's model]

Being accused of pedantry by someone who has happily spent pages on the actual, precise meaning of one word and it's variant antonyms etc is interesting.

its. it's is a contraction of 'it is'.

 

[Sea Star]

Im not aware i changed the post in question. I didnt think i needed to

 

[Cid]

I think we need to be careful about being too firm on the idea that gender identity is fixed around the age of 3.

From what i've read, at the age of 3, children are usually aware of their body and begin to understand that they can't change their body at will.
And at that age children start to become very interested in the social rules that they observe around them, and often see these as hard rules (and of course, they will have noticed the strict binary gender roles being imposed on them and all around them).

However, I don't think its correct to say that children who can't fit themselves into this binary and find it too puzzling, or who think they belong on the other side to what is expected on them at age 3 will always identify in this way throughout childhood and adulthood, or that children who do identify themselves with their expected gender at age 3 won't change their minds sometime later. This doesn't ring true with my childhood experience or the experiences of some other people i've spoken to. People can be very confused about gender as children but later be happy to be just gender non-conforming; and some people who don't remember "knowing" they were different to what was expected of them at the age of 3 develop gender dysphoria at some later point and go on to transition.

That's fair enough, in the article it wasn't a referenced point... I've done it a slight disservice by attempting to shoehorn a detailed discussion of research into sex into a discussion of gender.

 

[Sea Star]

Id like to also make clear i havent called anyone a transphobe and nor do i intend to

 

[equationgirl]

Thanks for the article AuntiStella and for sharing your transition, your writing is really good x

 

[Sea Star]

Thanks for the article AuntiStella and for sharing your transition, your writing is really good x

Thanks

 

[killer b]

This question was out of order I think.

tell co-op that then and why, rather than denouncing them. it's been a good discussion, it'd be a shame to start on the witch-finding at this point. No-one is posting in bad faith here.

 

[Red Cat]

I have more of a problem using the word cis to define myself than straight because I don't have any conflict with my heterosexuality whereas my identification with femininity is much more complicated, inseparable from my immediate family context, and the wider one of sexism and misogyny.

I remember some difficulties growing up, though not so much that it was ever debilitating, was much more consciously identified with my dad than with my right-wing 'female' hating mother. I wanted to be a boy when I was about 8, refused to wear a skirt for school, I remember pretending to be sick one day when the only pair of trousers that were clean were some horrible brown ones (1970s) and the alternative was a skirt, being the only girl in jeans on the end of a row of long-skirted girls in our class country dancing show, wrote my name as a boys name in my books. Obviously I wasn't as smart as a boy and of course I was crap at maths and I thought being a girl was a bit shit really. But I don't think I ever felt that I was 'really' a boy I just really, really wanted to be one and tried to magic myself into being one by wanting it so much. It didn't work and after a while I accepted that I was a girl, but not without some feeling of being a fake, a feeling that has got less as I age, especially since pregnancy and birthing and feeding my children, but hasn't totally disappeared.

I was going to post something more political than personal, about continuums rather than binaries, but it came out like this. I'm sure this kind of experience isn't uncommon.

 

[emanymton]

I have more of a problem using the word cis to define myself than straight because I don't have any conflict with my heterosexuality whereas my identification with femininity is much more complicated, inseparable from my immediate family context, and the wider one of sexism and misogyny.

I remember some difficulties growing up, though not so much that it was ever debilitating, was much more consciously identified with my dad than with my right-wing 'female' hating mother. I wanted to be a boy when I was about 8, refused to wear a skirt for school, I remember pretending to be sick one day when the only pair of trousers that were clean were some horrible brown ones (1970s) and the alternative was a skirt, being the only girl in jeans on the end of a row of long-skirted girls in our class country dancing show, wrote my name as a boys name in my books. Obviously I wasn't as smart as a boy and of course I was crap at maths and I thought being a girl was a bit shit really. But I don't think I ever felt that I was 'really' a boy I just really, really wanted to be one and tried to magic myself into being one by wanting it so much. It didn't work and after a while I accepted that I was a girl, but not without some feeling of being a fake, a feeling that has got less as I age, especially since pregnancy and birthing and feeding my children, but hasn't totally disappeared.

I was going to post something more political than personal, about continuums rather than binaries, but it came out like this. I'm sure this kind of experience isn't uncommon.

I think this is a point co-op has made a couple of times. None of us feel comfortable with our assigned gender roles, so in a sense there are no cis people. Like you say it is a continuum so some people feel it more depply than other.