Goldsmiths University Diversity officer facing sack

[brogdale]

Your implication being that somehow this is my fault?

No fault implied...I just hoped you'd help me see in what way I've missed the point. Genuinely wanted to know...that's all.

 

[Sea Star]

I can see that. But tbf I was asked specifically about non-trans people. Had I been asked about how I might describe trans people I would have offered the same answer. FWIW.

How does referring to trans people as people in any way convey our transness?

I see comprehension issues here.

Lets try another one - how do you describe women when youre specifically talking about women?

 

[Sea Star]

No fault implied...I just hoped you'd help me see in what way I've missed the point. Genuinely wanted to know...that's all.

Im trying really hard already

 

[brogdale]

How does referring to trans people as people in any way convey our transness?

I see comprehension issues here.

Lets try another one - how do you describe women when youre specifically talking about women?

I don't think it does, but that presupposes that I might have wanted to draw such a distinction. If I were specifically seeking to refer to a gender group I would, of course, use the term women or trans or whatever.

 

[Sea Star]

I don't think it does, but that presupposes that I might have wanted to draw such a distinction. If I were specifically seeking to refer to a gender group I would, of course, use the term women or trans or whatever.

and thats where the discrimination come in - you refer to cis women as women but trans women as trans women implying were not real women - thats my point!!

 

[brogdale]

and thats where the discrimination come in - you refer to cis women as women but trans women as trans women implying were not real women - thats my point!!

Well, cast like that I feel bad...that was not my intention at all. Personally I'd feel happier describing (if I had to) people who self-describe as women as....women. But tbh this sort of issue does seem to be a strong argument for the default of regarding your fellow man as 'people'.

 

[Citizen66]

the question I asked was about an imaginary conversation about trans people and the terms you would use.
you are saying that in such a conversation, you would use the same word to describe both groups?

sounds like back pedaling, to me..

You do realise that people can discussing folk without shoehorning everyone into a fucking box?

I remember an old house mate of mine who referred to her black friend and her lesbian friend. Why not just use their names? It struck me as ultra weird.

 

[Sea Star]

Well, cast like that I feel bad...that was not my intention at all. Personally I'd feel happier describing (if I had to) people who self-describe as women as....women. But tbh this sort of issue does seem to be a strong argument for the default of regarding your fellow man as 'people'.

I agree with your sentiments but we're not there yet!! Trans people need to be recognised as equal and accepted as just people before we can move to the next step.

 

[Orang Utan]

What are TEs?

 

[Sea Star]

What are TEs?

Just shorthand for trans exclusionaries

 

[Sea Star]

I feel bad about derailing this thread

 

[killer b]

I feel bad about derailing this thread

Don't, it was pretty worthless before the various derails. This is a discussion worth having (I appreciate it's one you've had many times and are probably sick of by now, mind...)

 

[DotCommunist]

don't,this debate is far more informative than talking about some goldsmith twonk chatting shit

 

[co-op]

I don't really disagree with that or much of what you have said on this thread. But where we do seem to part ways (and I am sorry if I am misreading you here) is that you seem to be suggesting that trans people are responsible for propagating those reactionary ideas, while I would see them more of the victims* of them. .

I've tried to make the point "some trans activists" "some ideology from trans people" etc - clearly it's a spectrum of opinions on all sides but it's a bulletin board and I'm posting without great amounts of time to tread ultra cautiously at every step. It makes it a difficult subject to discuss because there's insult-fishing going on.

 

[prunus]

I feel bad about derailing this thread

No, don't; this debate is much more important, and interesting, than the original one.

 

[DotCommunist]

jinx

 

[prunus]

Indeed

 

[smokedout]

I feel bad about derailing this thread

I wouldn't, about the only person you pissed off is probably Rod Liddle

 

[Sea Star]

Don't, it was pretty worthless before the various derails. This is a discussion worth having (I appreciate it's one you've had many times and are probably sick of by now, mind...)

A bit yeah, but if I can help one person understand a bit better - or show that not all trans people are shouty and angry then its worth it.

 

[killer b]

I wouldn't, about the only person you pissed off is probably Rod Liddle

You kidding? We've written his next column already.

 

[joustmaster]

You do realise that people can discussing folk without shoehorning everyone into a fucking box?

I remember an old house mate of mine who referred to her black friend and her lesbian friend. Why not just use their names? It struck me as ultra weird.

I entirely agree.
But what I was asking was which terms would brogdale would use in a conversation about gender. So, erm, you'd need to use gender terms, in this instance.

 

[Citizen66]

I entirely agree.
But what I was asking was which terms would brogdale would use in a conversation about gender. So, erm, you'd need to use gender terms, in this instance.

Male or female.

 

[Pickman's model]

No i had my heated moment yesterday and i kept it together

oh well there's always next time

 

[brogdale]

I agree with your sentiments but we're not there yet!! Trans people need to be recognised as equal and accepted as just people before we can move to the next step.

Absolutely, but in seeking to call people just that, I genuinely thought that I was recognising equality and accepting folk on their self-description. That said, it concerns me that expressing that view may be interpreted as one of privilege, or just downright reactionary. That's what I was struggling with.

 

[Sea Star]

Male or female.

that seems a bit binary to me

 

[brogdale]

Out of interest - If you were with your mates, and you had a conversation about trans people, what term would you use to describe people who weren't trans?

You seemed a little dissatisfied with my response when I said "people". tbf you had used that very descriptor yourself in the question. What, in your opinion, should I have said?

 

[Citizen66]

that seems a bit binary to me

I always thought that if someone came out as identifying as a gender then you refer to them as such. So if someone identifies as female I would refer to them as such. Are you saying this is now wrong and it always requires a trans or cis prefix?

 

[Sea Star]

I always thought that if someone came out as identifying as a gender then you refer to them as such. So if someone identifies as female I would refer to them as such. Are you saying this is now wrong and it always requires a trans or cis prefix?

not at all - but you can't ignore the prefix as there will be times that you may specifically need to refer to trans or cis. I thought I'd explained this tbh.

But my point is not everyone identifies as male or female. I know a few people that don't - so its a wrong assumption.

 

[joustmaster]

You seemed a little dissatisfied with my response when I said "people". tbf you had used that very descriptor yourself in the question. What, in your opinion, should I have said?

It was a genuine question.

You had said that you couldn't see yourself really needing to use the word cis/that only trans people would use it.
So I asked if, amongst friends, you had a conversation about trans and cis people, what words you would have used instead of cis.
There are a lot of other choices. A long time a go, as a youth, I might have used the word trans and normal. Which is horrible.

 

[Sea Star]

I thought I'd share this thing I wrote a while ago for a public speech I was going to make. It's a draft version so a bit rough and ready. It's kind of in answer to a question i saw earlier in the thread about when gender mismatch becomes a dysfunction.

From the age I was first aware of gender I’ve struggled.

My earliest memory of trans expression was when I was about 6 and I asked my mum if I could go to school dressed like my sister. And I know that I’d been aware of my difference a long time before that.

From age 6 to 9/10 it was a daily thing that eventually led to me crossdressing when I had the chance. I looked surprisingly girly when I put a dress on, if a little bit butch and tomboyish. First time I remember putting a dress on was aged about 8 when playing with my sister. She thought I looked like a girl too.

Gradually I started having regular dreams about being a girl. I would be looking in a mirror and my face would be that of a girl, or I’d be in a situation and suddenly realise I was wearing a pretty dress.

Waking up from such dreams was always hard.

I spent a lot of time being envious of girls and admiring the clothes, shoes and hairstyles of grown women but it all led to frustration in the end.

I cross-dressed throughout my teens but not openly. I never tried make up or wore women's underwear.

I felt like I was the only person this was happening to. There were few popular references to trans and most of them were negative. Cross-dressing comedians, articles calling trans people perverts and sick or mentally ill, but occasionally someone who’d changed gender – which is something I latched onto though I never thought I’d be able to do that.

I saw a trans meeting in a pub when I was about 16 and I freaked out and felt awful, as they were all fat men with stubble in bad wigs and ill fitting clothes.

I imagined myself as a desirable woman stepping into a car being driven by a man who was probably my partner. I also dreamt about having sex with men as a woman and being seduced etc. This set up tremendous conflict as I was not gay and did not fancy men at all, but wanted to be treated as a woman.

Through my teenage years it was daily shame and frustration. I found it difficult to connect to anyone. Was ridiculed by some for appearing or behaving in a “feminine” way. Wasn’t interested in joining in most ‘male’ activities but felt too disconnected and ashamed of my deepest feelings to pursue ‘female’ activities or connect with women. Instead I tended to do gender neutral stuff like drawing, reading, listening to music, cycling, watching tv.

From age 18 the urges seemed to die away a little and all the way to 25 I behaved like a fairly normal cis het male, but it never went away entirely and go me into trouble a few times – girlfriends picked up my non male aspect fairly quickly and most girls would want me as a friend rather than a lover. And now I can admit to myself I wasn’t exactly that bothered about sleeping with women – it felt like something I was supposed to do rather that something I wanted to do.

After 25 I came out to some people and started to go out dressed for the first time. I passed quite well even without make up which surprised me!

I went online aged 28/ 29 and hooked up with other trans people and for first time in my life I stopped feeling like a freak even though I still had very negative feelings about myself.

A new thing happened after this – I felt like I wasn’t living my life. I saw young women expressing their gender and I felt like I was a non-person and already dead. These feelings became stronger and stronger up until the point where I had to transition.

My wife tried to stop me cross dressing but that never works. I just kept it secret - eventually wearing make up too and got my hair styled in a feminine manner.

I was increasingly told I was quite feminine – a 'butch dyke' lesbian we knew told my wife I was a woman. I had said nothing.

It became harder and harder to have sex the way my wife wanted. Ive learnt since that the non penetrative sex I was asking for is more of a lesbian thing – I didn’t understand then but I did not want to use my penis for sex any more.

In the end our relationship became abusive and my wife started raping me on a regular basis and I became too scared and isolated to do anything about it. I kept a brave face at work and among my family – but I was increasingly depressed and eventually suicidal.

After that I was on my own for 5 years and suffering quite badly from post traumatic stress disorder from the abuse – with no support whatsoever and having to deal with debt and threat of homelessness. It was during this time that I explored the idea of changing my gender. A relationship with a woman in 2012 kind of make my mind up as I realised I really couldn’t be a man any more.

I started taking oestrogen and testosterone blockers in early 2014 and lot of my internal turmoil stopped then. I finally felt the way I wanted to feel – hard to describe but more emotional, and empathic than before, but more clear minded, more in control of my emotions and gradually as physical changes started, the way I feel, the way I always imagined myself and the way I look are finally beginning to match up. And more importantly people treat me as female and it just feels right now!

My boss told me my performance improved almost right away, my daily depression has gone, I’ve stopped feeling angry and frustrated, suddenly I have plenty of friends and people that care about me – mostly cis women – there are men who find me attractive and I finally find men attractive without any internal conflict. And I have a cis het boyfriend who says i am a woman and treats me accordingly! .I can now walk into a room and make friends instantly and strike up conversations with strangers - and I always thought that it was because of my AS that I couldn't do that! I have more confidence as a woman than i ever had as a man!!

And I hardly ever think about gender any more – cis privilege is nearly achieved!!