Goldsmiths University Diversity officer facing sack

[Pickman's model]

Because born and socialised as a woman actually has some impact on your life experiences.

so would you be happy to exclude a born woman socialised as a male from a woman's group, or to include a trans woman socialised as female?

 

[cesare]

How does being trans challenge the concept that gender is fixed and immutable? From what I've read on this thread the position seems to be that mtf trans are "women trapped in a man's body" - i.e. their gender was always female (fixed, immutably) but their body was just the wrong one.

If there's a tension between the biological sex and the gender then the radical solution is to completely deconstruct the gender ideology by transforming society - then no one has to "fit in" with a gender they don't actually feel is true to them (??everyone??).

The reactionary solution is to say transform the individual to allow society to stay the same. In the old days that meant "shut up and pretend better", nowadays it means "change yourself - but only yourself". (although of course I can see society is changed by the debate about how the changed individual is accepted or not etc - but this is a fundamentally trivial change compared to demolishing gender constructs that limit and damage us all).

"Change yourself" is just the modernised neo-liberal hyper-individualist version of "pretend better".

Being clear about your own internal sense of self and identity does not mean that your outward gender - the one that was assigned to you at birth - is fixed and immutable. It can be changed, and that's what some trans* people choose to do. Not all trans* people choose to do this, trans* incorporates a wide range of gender variants including people that choose not to have a gender at all. But it's this challenge to society's perception that once you're assigned your gender at birth, that's it, you're stuck with it, is what some trans* people do by changing their assigned outward gender to their internal one.

I agree that the radical solution is to completely deconstruct gender ideology by transforming society. However I don't think that shoring up gender ideology by constructing narrowly interpreted, anachronistic and patriarchal gender roles within defined spaces, then marginalising and excluding those that don't fit that interpretation is the way to achieve that.

 

[emanymton]

How does being trans challenge the concept that gender is fixed and immutable? From what I've read on this thread the position seems to be that mtf trans are "women trapped in a man's body" - i.e. their gender was always female (fixed, immutably) but their body was just the wrong one.

If there's a tension between the biological sex and the gender then the radical solution is to completely deconstruct the gender ideology by transforming society - then no one has to "fit in" with a gender they don't actually feel is true to them (??everyone??).

The reactionary solution is to say transform the individual to allow society to stay the same. In the old days that meant "shut up and pretend better", nowadays it means "change yourself - but only yourself". (although of course I can see society is changed by the debate about how the changed individual is accepted or not etc - but this is a fundamentally trivial change compared to demolishing gender constructs that limit and damage us all).

"Change yourself" is just the modernised neo-liberal hyper-individualist version of "pretend better".

I don't really disagree with that or much of what you have said on this thread. But where we do seem to part ways (and I am sorry if I am misreading you here) is that you seem to be suggesting that trans people are responsible for propagating those reactionary ideas, while I would see them more of the victims* of them. These are people who are told that the way they think and feel is wrong and that the pressure from that is so great that they only way they can begin to feel at peace with themselves is by undergoing extreme and life-altering surgery. In an ideal world they would not feel this pressure, but that is not the world we have. And while we can fight for the world we would like to see people need to survive in the world as it is. I would like to see an end to wage labour but until/if that ever happens I need to continue to sell my labour.


*I imagine some trans people may not be happy being described this way but it is the only way I can think to put it.

 

[Pickman's model]

Thora do you quiz people about their socialisation before deciding whether to include them in eg a dv group or do you think you know how they've been socialised depending what they've got between their legs rather than between their ears?

 

[emanymton]

On a separate note someone with more knowledge on the subject might be able to help me out here.

Most of the discussion of trans* people is male to female. Is this because it is more common than female to male and if so why?Or does it just dominate discussion and again if so why?

 

[Nancy_Winks]

I think you all should back off Thora a bit here. She's entitled to think and talk about this stuff without people saying oh your so mean to think that, do you quiz victims of domestic violence before offering them help etc

Of course she doesn't.

The issue of transgender raises lots of complicated stuff. And whilst it's fine to go, be cool, people are different, accept us all how we are... It's also fine to talk about it. Remember women might have different issues of mtf transgender women in toilets/wards etc cos they're scared. Maybe men don't feel that as much with ftm transgender.

I know barely anything about it. Are there roughly equal numbers of mtf and ftm transsexuals? Why is there an asterisk after trans* sometimes? Is there/what is the difference between transsexual/transgender (is that what the * means?). Does cis specifically mean not transgendered or is it more a vague term for 'the norm'?

That woman in the pictures fucking annoying btw. One of those loud middle class feminists that's obsessed with identity politics cos it's all about her.

 

[cesare]

Thora's entitled to her own opinions, but if she chooses to talk about them we're equally entitled to challenge them.

 

[Pickman's model]

I think you all should back off Thora a bit here. She's entitled to think and talk about this stuff without people saying oh your so mean to think that, do you quiz victims of domestic violence before offering them help etc

Of course she doesn't.

The issue of transgender raises lots of complicated stuff. And whilst it's fine to go, be cool, people are different, accept us all how we are... It's also fine to talk about it. Remember women might have different issues of mtf transgender women in toilets/wards etc cos they're scared. Maybe men don't feel that as much with ftm transgender.

I know barely anything about it. Are there roughly equal numbers of mtf and ftm transsexuals? Why is there an asterisk after trans* sometimes? Is there/what is the difference between transsexual/transgender (is that what the * means?). Does cis specifically mean not transgendered or is it more a vague term for 'the norm'?

That woman in the pictures fucking annoying btw. One of those loud middle class feminists that's obsessed with identity politics cos it's all about her.

yeh. of course she doesn't. my point exactly.

 

[Red Cat]

I haven't got time to post anything more considered but I think the discussion is a bit limited if we talk about socialisation as a one way type of conditioning process rather than something that involves an identification with (a feeling of sameness with) parents or other important adults i.e I think it's not just a doing to, from adult to child, but a taking in from adult by child.

 

[The39thStep]

What's the policy at Clapton Football Club?

 

[BigTom]

Does cis specifically mean not transgendered or is it more a vague term for 'the norm'?

cis is simply an antonym for trans. If we're going to have a word for people who have/are/want to transition, then we should also have a word for people who don't. I think Smokedout put it really well earlier in the thread:

It's just an atonym, like straight is to gay, or non-disabled is to disabled. Its difficult to discuss things like disability or transgenderism without a term to refer to people who are not transgendered or disabled, and as was hilariously pointed out earlier in the thread, without a specific antonym then there is a temptation to use the word 'normal' which is obviously a bit shit.

edit: cis is a latin word, in latin it's the antonym for trans. It's been used in chemistry historically so I've learnt on this thread, seems like a wanky academic made up word but actually it's got a certain rightness to it, being derived from language rather than anything gender/sex/biologically based. I really like it as a word for this usage.

 

[Pickman's model]

What's the policy at Clapton Football Club?

i don't believe the club itself has a policy but i understand that among some fans there's a framework about this, a scaffold if you will

 

[Pickman's model]

Thora's entitled to her own opinions, but if she chooses to talk about them we're equally entitled to challenge them.

must say Thora's rsther surprised me: when i knew her some years ago she gave me the impression of being more open-minded, fwoabt

 

[seventh bullet]

cis is simply an antonym for trans. If we're going to have a word for people who have/are/want to transition, then we should also have a word for people who don't. I think Smokedout put it really well earlier in the thread:



edit: cis is a latin word, in latin it's the antonym for trans. It's been used in chemistry historically so I've learnt on this thread, seems like a wanky academic made up word but actually it's got a certain rightness to it, being derived from language rather than anything gender/sex/biologically based. I really like it as a word for this usage.

I doubt I'll come across anyone in my day to day life who uses it.

 

[cesare]

must say Thora's rsther surprised me: when i knew her some years ago she gave me the impression of being more open-minded, fwoabt

I just had to google fwoabt

 

[BigTom]

I doubt I'll come across anyone in my day to day life who uses it.

of course, like somkedout said it's a word that's needed for discussion about transgenderism, not for everyday conversation. It's also a very new word in this context, only been in the last 3-4 years I think, so most people have never heard of it, so even in a conversation about transgenderism it may not crop up. I bet there was also a time when the word straight would not have been heard outside of a few small lgb connected circles (I actually have no idea about the origins of the word straight in that context), but that's not the case now.

 

[cantsin]

I just had to google fwoabt

cldnt find it, and already driving me slightly mad , " from what --- about that "??

Plse enlighten

 

[cesare]

cldnt find it, and already driving me slightly mad , " from what --- about that "??

Plse enlighten

I *think* it's For Want Of A Better Word. Pickman's model is that right?

 

[cantsin]

I *think* it's For Want Of A Better Word. Pickman's model is that right?

sounds right, ta

 

[Maurice Picarda]

better term, surely.

 

[cesare]

better term, surely.

Ah yes, that'll explain the t at the end rather than my w

 

[brogdale]

cis is simply an antonym for trans. If we're going to have a word for people who have/are/want to transition, then we should also have a word for people who don't. I think Smokedout put it really well earlier in the thread:



edit: cis is a latin word, in latin it's the antonym for trans. It's been used in chemistry historically so I've learnt on this thread, seems like a wanky academic made up word but actually it's got a certain rightness to it, being derived from language rather than anything gender/sex/biologically based. I really like it as a word for this usage.

While it's always useful to appreciate the etymology, I'm not at all convinced about the usefulness or need of the prefix beyond the minority that perceive themselves to be 'othered'. Just because a term operates as an antonym does not necessarily give it 'coinage' amongst the population outside of the minority. For one thing it appears to suffer from the same weakness that antagonises some described as atheists; the word defines people on a parameter selected as important to one group, but not the other.

It is always helpful to know how and why a term has evolved, but I would be surprised to hear non-trans people use the term 'cis' to describe their gender status.

 

[Pickman's model]

I *think* it's For Want Of A Better Word. Pickman's model is that right?

for want of a better term. word traditionally doesn't start with t, cesare.

 

[cesare]

While it's always useful to appreciate the etymology, I'm not at all convinced about the usefulness or need of the prefix beyond the minority that perceive themselves to be 'othered'. Just because a term operates as an antonym does not necessarily give it 'coinage' amongst the population outside of the minority. For one thing it appears to suffer from the same weakness that antagonises some described as atheists; the word defines people on a parameter selected as important to one group, but not the other.

It is always helpful to know how and why a term has evolved, but I would be surprised to hear non-trans people use the term to 'cis' to describe their gender status.

It'll probably catch on eventually. I didn't use to describe myself as straight either but now I don't think twice about it.

 

[cesare]

for want of a better term. word traditionally doesn't start with t, cesare.

#981

 

[Pickman's model]

#981

yeh but i check my alerts before i check the thread. i'll have to revise my sop i suppose.

 

[cesare]

yeh but i check my alerts before i check the thread. i'll have to revise my sop i suppose.

Standard Operating Procedure? Indeed, if you don't want to miss a trick

 

[Pickman's model]

Standard Operating Procedure? Indeed, if you don't want to miss a trick

i do not want to miss a terribly risque internet chat (i know you added the k as an 'omage).

 

[J Ed]

What's the policy at Clapton Football Club?

Call the police and get them to sort it out

 

[Pickman's model]

Call the police and get them to sort it out

giving na a new meaning