Goldsmiths University Diversity officer facing sack

[Treacle Toes]

I once went to my local washing machine repair shop and described the problem. The man there told me he thought it was the 'brushes', got them out from the parts store and described where they were located in the machine. I brought them, went home and changed them which included using shock horror...a screw driver removing the top of the WM and taking out a part...removing the old brushes, putting the new ones in and then putting the WM as it was. I went back in there a week later to get some new hoses and he remembered me. He asked me how it went. I said fine, your description was great and the WM is working perfectly. He looked at me mouth open and said if I came home and my missus told me she'd just changed the brushes I check her knickers to see if she had a dick.

True story. Ridiculous but true.

 

[killer b]

I don't doubt this. I was just trying to give an example/explanation as as I said upthread not trying to be offensive.

What other reasons do you think?

I mentioned earlier (and someone else has mentioned too) the tendency for men to take over and dominate discussions. This thread has been a fine example of exactly that, for most of it's run (I appreciate the irony of me pointing that out...)

 

[Citizen66]

I wouldn't have a problem with being excluded from a black women's group on the basis that I'm not a black woman.

Then it logically carries that you'd be happy, as a black woman, being excluded from a whites only group for women.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Not all men do it either, but men and women are socialised differently from birth and that does result in different patterns of behaviour. Is it possible to just step out of your socialisation?

Do you really believe that the formative social experience of growing up and living as a cis man and growing up and living as a trans woman are broadly the same? Socialisation isn't simply about what you are told you are and should be, but about how you interact with what what you are told and how that in turn shapes what you are told in the future.

I don't even think that you have to subscribe to a particular theory of gender to understand that trans people make up some of the most intensely victimised and oppressed groups in our society. And that this has a role in ongoing socialisation.

 

[Citizen66]

I mentioned earlier (and someone else has mentioned too) the tendency for men to take over and dominate discussions. This thread has been a fine example of exactly that, for most of it's run (I appreciate the irony of me pointing that out...)

You're right on this point.

 

[Thora]

I think the reason I find this definition so problematic for women, is that it assumes that gender is this real, objective thing and there is an objectively "woman" way to feel/look/behave. But for me, gender is a result of being born female and socialised as a woman. Women vary massively in how they feel/look/behave. I also think that there is a worrying trend with society becoming more strictly gendered in terms of children's clothes, toys and behaviour and I don't think seeing gender as this strict thing of either being a man or a woman - if you look and behave like a woman you are one - is a forward step.

 

[Thora]

Then it logically carries that you'd be happy, as a black woman, being excluded from a whites only group for women.

Because black women are well known for oppressing white women?

 

[Nancy_Winks]

Yes, a hospital ward is somewhere I would feel uncomfortable as you are particularly vulnerable. We were also talking about refuges and women-only rape or DV support groups.

It's difficult

 

[Treacle Toes]

I mentioned earlier (and someone else has mentioned too) the tendency for men to take over and dominate discussions. This thread has been a fine example of exactly that, for most of it's run (I appreciate the irony of me pointing that out...)

Yeah, at the same time though, there are many more active male users here day in day out, especially in the politics forum.

As I said before does anyone here have experience of trans women doing this (taking over) in women only spaces? If not I don't know why this is something automatically assumed as a potential problem. Especially since it makes no disctinction between the thoughts and behaviour of a man and those of a trans woman.

 

[SpookyFrank]

I once went to my local washing machine repair shop and described the problem. The man there told me he thought it was the 'brushes', got them out from the parts store and described where they were located in the machine. I brought them, went home and changed them which included using shock horror...a screw driver removing the top of the WM and taking out a part...removing the old brushes, putting the new ones in and then putting the WM as it was. I went back in there a week later to get some new hoses and he remembered me. He asked me how it went. I said fine, your description was great and the WM is working perfectly. He looked at me mouth open and said if I came home and my missus told me she'd just changed the brushes I check her knickers to see if she had a dick.

True story. Ridiculous but true.

You'd think if his own wife had a dick he'd have noticed it sooner.

 

[cesare]

I think the reason I find this definition so problematic for women, is that it assumes that gender is this real, objective thing and there is an objectively "woman" way to feel/look/behave. But for me, gender is a result of being born female and socialised as a woman. Women vary massively in how they feel/look/behave. I also think that there is a worrying trend with society becoming more strictly gendered in terms of children's clothes, toys and behaviour and I don't think seeing gender as this strict thing of either being a man or a woman - if you look and behave like a woman you are one - is a forward step.

If you disagree with the patriarchal traditional gender roles, why would you seek to exclude those that challenge them?

 

[spanglechick]

Don't women have good reasons to feel uncomfortable or unsafe in some situations around people who are born and socialised as male?

So - if we take the women's refuge situation - what all women, trans and cis, in that situation, will have in common, is that they have been suffering from domestic abuse. The physical nature of the transwoman may be male, but women's refuges accept the sons of abused women, some up to age sixteen. They obviously accept women who may be in excess of six foot, and heavily built, and/or who present in an androgynous style of clothing, manner, voice...

But surely that comes from the belief about how gender is defined? If somewhere is a safe space because it is only accessed by women, then allowing people in who those using it do not believe to be women is what makes it feel unsafe. So it still comes down to "accept this definition of what it is to be a woman or you are phobic".

There are also people who feel that gay, lesbian and bisexual people should not be allowed to use changing rooms. As a society we say "sorry, we think you're wrong. accept this about the sanctity of those spaces, or you are phobic."

 

[killer b]

Yeah, at the same time though, there are many more active male users here day in day out, especially in the politics forum.

Perhaps. Either way, it wasn't an edifying sight arriving home last night to find this thread full of Thora going round after round with chest-jabbing blokes all telling her what a woman is.

 

[Thora]

It's difficult

It is, and I don't think a woman who would feel unsafe or uncomfortable in one of those situations with people born/socialised as male being present are being hysterical, phobic or any of the other things suggested. Actually I think those accusations are pretty vicious and dismissive of women's experiences.

 

[Thora]

If you disagree with the patriarchal traditional gender roles, why would you seek to exclude those that challenge them?

How is changing from one patriarchal traditional gender role to another challenging them?

 

[Treacle Toes]

here is 'cis' used in a non-neutral way. I think for a lot of people on here, this kind of context is the only time they've heard or seen it used.

That just illustrates her childish combative approach. She is clearly mocking and in doing so undermines the whole point of wanting a 'safer' space.

 

[Treacle Toes]

You'd think if his own wife had a dick he'd have noticed it sooner.

Well yeah but of course he didn't mean it literally. He was suggesting woman can't/don't do such things. In doing so suggesting I was manly because I could and was happy to.

 

[cesare]

How is changing from one patriarchal traditional gender role to another challenging them?

It challenges the concept that gender is fixed and immutable. I've answered your question - please would you answer mine with an answer rather than another question?

 

[Citizen66]

Because black women are well known for oppressing white women?

All peoples oppression are equal, based on skin colour? What about Jewish people, Irish people, etc?

 

[killer b]

. edit: sorry, misread.

 

[SpookyFrank]

How is changing from one patriarchal traditional gender role to another challenging them?

One might argue that it subverts the gender dichotomy rather than reinforcing it.

 

[cesare]

I disagree. I don't think she was being childish or mocking at all.

Why don't you think that?

 

[Citizen66]

Is Mugabe white?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

I think the reason I find this definition so problematic for women, is that it assumes that gender is this real, objective thing and there is an objectively "woman" way to feel/look/behave. But for me, gender is a result of being born female and socialised as a woman. Women vary massively in how they feel/look/behave. I also think that there is a worrying trend with society becoming more strictly gendered in terms of children's clothes, toys and behaviour and I don't think seeing gender as this strict thing of either being a man or a woman - if you look and behave like a woman you are one - is a forward step.

The other way of looking at that is that allowing and even encouraging people to reject their assigned gender or even to declare themselves "non-binary" in fact undermines strict assumptions about how natural, intrinsic and immutable gender is. While forbidding them to do so has essentialist consequences. And this is so even where the person rejecting their assigned role uses essentialist arguments to justify that decision and those who seek to limit their ability to reject those roles do so in the name of gender abolition.

Much of the attraction of essentialist arguments for many trans people by the way comes from a need to justify themselves in the face of hostility and rejection. And much of the reason why some trans people tend to adopt very traditional versions of masculinity and femininity stems from medical and political institutions forcing them to do so if they wish to be taken seriously or assisted in any way.

 

[killer b]

Why don't you think that?

edited, I thought she was replying to another one of my posts.

 

[killer b]

That just illustrates her childish combative approach. She is clearly mocking and in doing so undermines the whole point of wanting a 'safer' space.

it does, but it also illustrates why 'cis' isn't a neutral term.

 

[Thora]

It challenges the concept that gender is fixed and immutable. I've answered your question - please would you answer mine with an answer rather than another question?

OK, I don't think it does challenge gender roles.

 

[cesare]

OK, I don't think it does challenge gender roles.

Why not?

 

[cesare]

it does, but it also illustrates why 'cis' isn't a neutral term.

No, it illustrates why the neutrality of terms is contextual.

 

[Thora]

Why not?

Because it reinforces that there are two genders, that involve feeling/looking/behaving a certain way, and you are either one or the other.