Goldsmiths University Diversity officer facing sack

[killer b]

No, it illustrates why the neutrality of terms is contextual.

you're right.

 

[Treacle Toes]

It is, and I don't think a woman who would feel unsafe or uncomfortable in one of those situations with people born/socialised as male being present are being hysterical, phobic or any of the other things suggested. Actually I think those accusations are pretty vicious and dismissive of women's experiences.

I suppose, we really can't have this conversation properly until we identify what it is exactly that makes some women feel 'unsafe or uncomfortable' when trans women are included in such a way. It seems to me the detail is important...what is it about being socialised/born a man that is imagined/will be acted out by trans women in those situations?

Again I ask if anyone has any real life experience of anyone doing so.

 

[Thora]

I suppose, we really can't have this conversation properly until we identify what it is exactly that makes some women feel 'unsafe or uncomfortable' when trans women are included in such a way. It seems to me the detail is important...what is it about being socialised/born a man that is imagined/will be acted out by trans women in those situations?

Again I ask if anyone has any real life experience of anyone doing so.

Or, what is it about being trans that makes being born and socialised male irrelevant?

 

[cesare]

Because it reinforces that there are two genders, that involve feeling/looking/behaving a certain way, and you are either one or the other.

And yet you seek to reinforce that gender division yourself, by way of born-women only safer spaces. Why is it OK for you, but not OK for trans* people?

 

[Thora]

And yet you seek to reinforce that gender division yourself, by way of born-women only safer spaces. Why is it OK for you, but not OK for trans* people?

Because born and socialised as a woman actually has some impact on your life experiences.

 

[stethoscope]

Just wanted to say interesting thread, if quite a departure from the OP in urban fashion.

Given that most trans people reflect as many different expressions of gender (and sexuality) as cis people, I'm always a bit bemused so much is made of gender roles/clothing/stereotypes in these things.

On the subject of socialisation. I think most trans people will tell you that they felt incredibly at odds with socialisation (and expectations on them based on their assigned gender/sex) and often feel alienated by it. Clearly this varies from trans person to trans person, however, if we consider that many trans people are now coming out younger and living as the gender they consider themselves to be from pre-teenage, having HRT from mid-late teens, and surgeries by the time they reach adult, the dynamics of socialisation is changing.

These discussions also seem to boil down to 'women's only spaces' - and primarily trans women (as 'really men who just want to be in those spaces because they might have ulterior motives'). Rather than say, because they need the toilet, or they're in hospital because they're ill, or they've been raped. I do of course, accept and appreciate that there are some sensitivities in this. Trans men tend to be treated invisibly (or as 'failed lesbians' by some quarters). Who would believe that something like 5% of the population estimated to be trans could be so evol and intent on both challenging gender or upholding gender at the same time (depending on which side you're on).

As some of you will know, I rather got on my soap box about this stuff a few years back now, and I vowed to never enter such discussion again (and I won't be now either tbh - just wanted to say a few things that were on my mind following this all). Y'know, if people don't accept or regard me as a woman (as someone with differing biology), well, y'know that's upto them. I'm not going to demand anything from those people anymore.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Or, what is it about being trans that makes being born and socialised male irrelevant?

Maybe. Can you answer either question?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Or, what is it about being trans that makes being born and socialised male irrelevant?

"Born" is an essentialist way of looking at things. Socialised is a different issue, but what on earth makes you think that the socialisation of cis men and trans women is the same?

 

[SpookyFrank]

here is 'cis' used in a non-neutral way. I think for a lot of people on here, this kind of context is the only time they've heard or seen it used.

One thing that does annoy me is people using the term 'cis' as if it's something everyone understands. It has only been around for a few years (in this context at least, it was originally a technical term used in organic chemistry) and is still only used in certain circles. When I see people getting shouted down for innocently asking the meaning of something like that (and I have) that makes me mad. You can't moan about people not understanding stuff if you refuse to tell them about it when they ask, that makes no sense. All it will achieve is perpetuating an us-and-them situation, which sadly a small minority of idiots will always try to do.

 

[cesare]

Because born and socialised as a woman actually has some impact on your life experiences.

Being born and socialised in a different way actually has some impact on your life experiences.

 

[Citizen66]

Or, what is it about being trans that makes being born and socialised male irrelevant?

The fact they found being born and raised male, whilst being trans, difficult?

 

[ViolentPanda]

I wouldn't have a problem with being excluded from a black women's group on the basis that I'm not a black woman.

But then you're white, which means that your exclusion doesn't carry the same message or value-loading as it would if you were a black woman being excluded from a white women's group. if we forget or ignore the reality that all human social relationships are constructed around asymmetric power-relations between parties, we also lose sight of why our own perceptions of "what is right" are not necessarily accurate or even acceptable.

 

[Citizen66]

One thing that does annoy me is people using the term 'cis' as if it's something everyone understands. It has only been around for a few years (in this context at least, it was originally a technical term used in organic chemistry) and is still only used in certain circles. When I see people getting shouted down for innocently asking the meaning of something like that (and I have) that makes me mad. You can't moan about people not understanding stuff if you refuse to tell them about it when they ask, that makes no sense. All it will achieve is perpetuating an us-and-them situation, which sadly a small minority of idiots will always try to do.

Like what happened to me earlier in the thread.

 

[Treacle Toes]

The fact they found being born and raised male, whilst being trans, difficult?

There is something in this given that more than one poster has been clear about despite the attempts of society/parents etc to socialise trans people as male/female there exists at the same time a sense of self/of being trans.

As such, I don't feel it is a simple as saying they were born and socialised as male/female etc. That's like saying you were born and socialised as Black/White/Tory/Racist/Lefty etc and saying that those things are 'absolute' experiences, that culture is fixed and immutable, that someone is only the sum of those imposed notions/identifiers.

 

[Nancy_Winks]

stethoscope totally challenged, changed and informed my views on these issues years ago

 

[killer b]

Like what happened to me earlier in the thread.

I thought you were taking the piss. We've been squabbling about this stuff on here for long enough, I feel like I've a intersectional checklist tattooed on my eyelids...

 

[equationgirl]

By women-only spaces are we talking about bogs, changing rooms and hospital wards? Cos I struggle to think of any others.

Personally I wouldn't have a problem. But I can imagine if I was ill on a hospital ward I might get jumpy sleeping in the same bay as a man (only cos I basically cannot sleep around strange men). If the trans woman was clearly, well, a woman, then it's no bother is it.

Toilets and changing rooms all have cubicles so I don't see the issue there.

The first time I was admitted to hospital I woke up to find a man in the next bed which had been empty when I went to sleep. I felt incredibly uncomfortable and vulnerable.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Or, what is it about being trans that makes being born and socialised male irrelevant?

Nothing.
However, IMO we need to bear in mind that socialisation is a continuous personal process as well as being a gendering social process in general. Assuming that a trans woman will not have questioned, circumvented or superceded their earlier "programming" ignores the hybridising nature of most cultural and social practices. So nothing is rendered irrelevant, but sometimes progress is made in neutralising the ill-effects of prior conditioning.

 

[Citizen66]

I thought you were taking the piss. We've been squabbling about this stuff on here for long enough, I feel like I've a intersectional checklist tattooed on my eyelids...

Orang was right though. It wasn't unreasonable to think I would have known this sooner. There's loads of stuff on here I miss though. Like the commentariat thread and its predecessor; I give up on the mass chat threads as I can't keep up. They irk me too tbh.

 

[killer b]

I don't think you're supposed to keep up with them, just drop in when you're bored.

 

[Citizen66]

I don't think you're supposed to keep up with them, just drop in when you're bored.

But they harvest topics iyswim

 

[Nancy_Winks]

But they harvest topics iyswim

Yeah I feel the same

 

[cantsin]

Then it logically carries that you'd be happy, as a black woman, being excluded from a whites only group for women.

wtf, you serious ?

 

[smokedout]

Yes, a hospital ward is somewhere I would feel uncomfortable as you are particularly vulnerable. We were also talking about refuges and women-only rape or DV support groups.

most refuges do take trans-women, it would be illegal in many cases not to, it does not seem to be causing huge problems in the sector, this s from the guidelines rape crisis scotland put out to single sex services:

Discrimination against transsexual people is not acceptable and therefore the bar for a
service provider to discriminate in this way is very high – the use of the exception has to
be exceptional. Decisions made cannot be based on personal prejudice but on evidence of
detriment to others, and even then the provider will need to show that a less discriminatory
way to achieve the objective was not available.

In the circumstance that other service users say that they are uncomfortable sharing a
service with a trans woman, this is rightly seen as no reason for the trans woman to be
moved. The service has to make any decision about provision based on good practice rather
than prejudice. In this situation, we would work to educate other service users - much in the
same way that we would if we received comments regarding other service user’s ethnicity,
religious affiliation or sexual orientation.

Difficulties for newly arriving service users could be prevented through some proactive
measures. For example, the intake procedure at some women’s refuges includes informing
new residents of the following: “We house many different women here. We welcome women
of different races, different religions, women with mental health issues, lesbian and bisexual
women, and transgender women.” This discussion would be held irrespective of whether
any trans people were in the service at that point.

you must recognise at least that your views are not the norm amongst women who work in this sector, could be seen as rather old fashioned and eccentric even, and certainly do not imo justify denying dv and rape support services to people who are transsexual. you are absolutely entitled to those views, but they are out of step with current thinking and practice in the sectors you describe.

 

[redsquirrel]

If we take this out of the realm of principle or theory and discuss it as simple day to day experience,

Yeah for me this is the important point. In regard to women/men only spaces then surely the purpose and role of space is a key factor. There's been strong implicit assumption running through the thread that all women only spaces are the same, IMO that just seems daft.

I think its at best impolite and insensitive and at worst downright dickish not to refer to a transwoman as a woman if they've clearly stated that that's their personnel preference. Likewise the stuff TopCat mentioned earlier about some people blocking a transwoman from using the woman's toilets is just plain bigotry and I'd hope no one would condone it. But it doesn't then follow that there can't be some spaces reserved for cis-women.

For example some time ago someone mentioned a group that was specifically focused on helping women from ethnic minorities who had/were suffered/ing physical or sexual violence. Not because they didn't recognise that other women (or people in general) can suffer from such violence but because there are other cultural issues that meant that it would help BME women to have something more specific to them.

 

[Wilf]

Yeah for me this is the important point. In regard to women/men only spaces then surely the purpose and role of space is a key factor. There's been strong implicit assumption running through the thread that all women only spaces are the same, IMO that just seems daft.

I think its at best impolite and insensitive and at worst downright dickish not to refer to a transwoman as a woman if they've clearly stated that that's their personnel preference. Likewise the stuff TopCat mentioned earlier about some people blocking a transwoman from using the woman's toilets is just plain bigotry and I'd hope no one would condone it. But it doesn't then follow that there can't be some spaces reserved for cis-women.

For example some time ago someone mentioned a group that was specifically focused on helping women from ethnic minorities who had/were suffered/ing physical or sexual violence. Not because they didn't recognise that other women (or people in general) can suffer from such violence but because there are other cultural issues that meant that it would help BME women to have something more specific to them.

I'm not sure these are strictly comparable. Needless to say I wouldn't have a problem with ethnic minority women having a specific 'space' or group (I don't have problems with women only spaces anyway). But the idea of a 'cis women only space' is different - that would be a majority group - and indeed there might be an argument that their voice is already at the front of the movement.

I can think about this whole thing as an issue of theory, but again, in what way would cis women feel that their discussions, their identities, their politics were compromised by the presence of trans women? It's as Cesare said, this isn't about mutualyl exclusive subsets, it's about the idea of a particular group being excluded from the whole thing.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Top posts from spanglechick on this thread. It's extraordinarily mean to play top trumps over the issue of transgender.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Or, what is it about being trans that makes being born and socialised male irrelevant?

Who are you talking about here? Trans women? They weren't socialised male. Do you not get that? Any trans person across whichever gender endured a socialisation process that did not work with them.

You come across as mean to me on this issue.

 

[Orang Utan]

 

[co-op]

It challenges the concept that gender is fixed and immutable. I've answered your question - please would you answer mine with an answer rather than another question?

How does being trans challenge the concept that gender is fixed and immutable? From what I've read on this thread the position seems to be that mtf trans are "women trapped in a man's body" - i.e. their gender was always female (fixed, immutably) but their body was just the wrong one.

If there's a tension between the biological sex and the gender then the radical solution is to completely deconstruct the gender ideology by transforming society - then no one has to "fit in" with a gender they don't actually feel is true to them (??everyone??).

The reactionary solution is to say transform the individual to allow society to stay the same. In the old days that meant "shut up and pretend better", nowadays it means "change yourself - but only yourself". (although of course I can see society is changed by the debate about how the changed individual is accepted or not etc - but this is a fundamentally trivial change compared to demolishing gender constructs that limit and damage us all).

"Change yourself" is just the modernised neo-liberal hyper-individualist version of "pretend better".