Goldsmiths University Diversity officer facing sack

[ManchesterBeth]

paging dialectician

We generally identify (and are treated as being) middle eastern or asian.

 

[BigMoaner]

are you into mens rights activism as well by any chance ?

Pmsl.

 

[Thora]

Born a woman. Giving weight to the gender being from birth, suggestive of authority.

I am born a woman though, and I'm still a woman. That's just a statement of fact

 

[Treacle Toes]

I am born a woman though, and I'm still a woman. That's just a statement of fact

Yes it is. However if you were using that statement to diffientiate yourself from a trans* woman you could be using it to claim some kind of authority over them/excluding them.

 

[cesare]

I am born a woman though, and I'm still a woman. That's just a statement of fact

The context of how some radfems use "born woman" is exclusionary to anyone that wasn't born a woman and so therefore isn't a real woman and therefore has to be excluded from real born women spaces etc (according to them).

 

[Thora]

Yes it is. However if you were using that statement to diffientiate yourself from a trans* woman you could be using it to claim some kind of authority over them.

It does differentiate though. What else is the difference? I'm not sure how that claims authority.

 

[Treacle Toes]

It does differentiate though. What else is the difference? I'm not sure how that claims authority.

Because if you accept that trans* women are women, differentiating, could be used to exclude them or suggestive that 'born women' somehow have more authority over what it's like to be a woman or that trans* women shouldn't be included in some circumstances for example.. Context important here. Saying I was born a woman isn't a contraversial statement on it's own obviously.

 

[Thora]

Because if you accept that trans* women are women, differentiating, could be used to exclude them or suggestive that 'born women' somehow have more authority over what it's like to be a woman or that trans* women shouldn't be included in some circumstances for example.. Context important here. Saying I was born a woman isn't a contraversial statement on it's own obviously.

I would have thought "born women" have more authority over what it is like to be a woman and transwomen have more authority over what it is like to be a transwoman. I'm not familiar with all the politics though.

 

[Belushi]

I would have thought "born women" have more authority over what it is like to be a woman and transwomen have more authority over what it is like to be a transwoman. I'm not familiar with all the politics though.

Don't get sucked in to it!

 

[killer b]

 

[cesare]

Don't get sucked in to it!

An argument about gender determinism v gender performativity is just what we need in the run up to tea

 

[frogwoman]

Well done everyone. This is basically just some stupid personal spat now.

 

[Treacle Toes]

I would have thought "born women" have more authority over what it is like to be a woman and transwomen have more authority over what it is like to be a transwoman. I'm not familiar with all the politics though.

I was just trying to explain my understanding of how 'born' could be used as a perjorative.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Well done everyone. This is basically just some stupid personal spat now.

Between whom?

 

[Blagsta]

Except those things never happen, but whites have been attacked and indeed killed for no other reason but their race.

I think there needs to be a differentiation between individual acts of racism and structural racism.

 

[frogwoman]

Between whom?

Urban75 and twitter.

Killer b you and thora are the pretty much only ones talking sense here. I cant be arse to look through 10/11 pages of twitter spats tho.

 

[Pickman's model]

An argument about gender determinism v gender performativity is just what we need in the run up to tea

it really is

 

[equationgirl]

I don't know why she's put herself in the sentence though. Women in general cannot be sexist towards men, and people from ethnic minorities cannot be racist towards the predominant ethnic group. But, like probably a great many other things, she only seems to be interested in this stuff as it pertains to her personally.

Also, 'not racist' does not necessarily mean 'not an idiot'.

I have to disagree with you there. I have heard and stopped women from being sexist towards men. Sexism is after all discrimination on the basis of gender.

 

[Belushi]

I think there needs to be a differentiation between individual acts of racism and structural racism.

Yes there does, but its not either/or.

 

[Sirena]

I would have thought "born women" have more authority over what it is like to be a woman and transwomen have more authority over what it is like to be a transwoman. I'm not familiar with all the politics though.

There has been a feminist objection to transsexuals going back to American feminist writers of the 1970s. Germaine Greer joined her voice to theirs at one time, though I believe she has shifted position fairly recently.

In the American pagan community, this became a major storm last year when certain 'born women' were still fighting to exclude transsexuals from certain meetings. The overwhelming majority of the pagan community were outraged at what they thought were antediluvian attitudes.

 

[Thora]

Surely there are some women-only spaces that aren't appropriate for transwomen?

 

[Pickman's model]

Surely there are some women-only spaces that aren't appropriate for transwomen?

name a couple then

 

[Thora]

name a couple then

Women's refuges or rape crisis support groups.

 

[Pickman's model]

Women's refuges or rape crisis support groups.

but why wouldn't these be appropriate for trans women who might have undergone dv or suffered rape?

 

[dylanredefined]

name a couple then

Birthing room

 

[Thora]

but why wouldn't these be appropriate for trans women who might have undergone dv or suffered rape?

Why wouldn't they be appropriate for men who might have undergone dv or suffered rape?

 

[tufty79]

Birthing room

Why? E2a: is that even a women only space by default? I don't mean the person giving birth, more the people around them...

 

[cantsin]

Except those things never happen, but whites have been attacked and indeed killed for no other reason but their race.

cops have been killed for being cops, the rich have been killed for being rich ( + not just in Russia in 1917 ) ...just like whites are very occasionally killed for being white

to compare any of this to the genocide waged vs those on the sharp end of western imperialism for 500 + years is feeble and ridiculous .

"if my black neighbour ever..." FUCK OFF .

 

[frogwoman]

I agree - they should be optional tho, rather than it being the default policy that trans women are kept out. Its very hard to find a solution to this and i dont think the more extreme people on both sides are really representative. I think theres also a lack of understanding/support for trans people facing that sort of crisis too, and if a womens refuge is the only place that can provide that i dont think the policy should just be to say no. There are some feminists who use these sort of concerns as a way to excuse very nasty views on trans people generally speaking.

 

[Thora]

I think theres also a lack of understanding/support for trans people facing that sort of crisis too, and if a womens refuge is the only place that can provide that i dont think the policy should just be to say no.

Yes, I'm sure there is a lack of support (and indeed a lack of support for men who have experienced rape and DV) but I'm not sure asking women to give up some space is the way to address it.