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Gender idealism?

Yugoslav said:
Is this another Fabian opportunist terminology used to discredit Marxism-Leninism?
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here's an opportunity to log out of the site and forget your password before your transphobia and misogyny becomes a very serious problem for you ...
did you not take the hint from Editor's last post in the thread ?
 
If transwomen are women, and some women can be described as “tomboys”, then some transwomen could be described as “tomboys”, but it has been stated that this term can only be applied to cis women. Someone who asserts that only cis women can be “tomboys” is implying that transwomen are not women. So it turns out that a certain person is transphobic after all.
 
PTK said:
The person to whom I was replying was defending the use of the "tomboy", and his response demonstrates my contention in an earlier post that some trans rights activists reinforce gender stereotypes.
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:hmm:

i'm not trans, so open to the thoughts of those who are, but i'm sure that in one of the (many) previous discussions on here, it has been suggested that the gatekeeping in the current system will not let people through who don't meet enough stereotypes in their transition process.

maybe some trans people do try too hard at some point at least.

some people are content with 'non binary'

i'm not convinced that trans people (whether they consider themselves 'trans rights activists' or not) are within a single organised group / party so they may not all have identical viewpoints.

PTK said:
his
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:hmm: again
 
Its so tiring isnt it?! That particularly cishet men (sorry to my homies here but you'll understand this) just always think they're doing this 'gotcha!' thing as part of their debating society schtick. And it doesnt matter how much anyone tries to educate, how much stuff is out there to read that could inform opinion better, how much evidence can be quoted to dispel badly made assertions, it just carries on regardless, seizing on little things here and there. And we've been doing this shit for over ten years on Urban, such as Why do some feminists hate transgender people? and countless knows how many disingenuous threads since.

And yet still people seriously think that debate is being shutdown? When mainstream media and press, majority political landscape, and social media, is almost completely dominated by 'gender critical' and anti-trans/queer discourse and has been for a few years now, it would be really refreshing if some could stop with the mental gymnastics on this subject, seriously.
 
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Puddy_Tat said:
i'm not convinced that trans people (whether they consider themselves 'trans rights activists' or not) are within a single organised group / party so they may not all have identical viewpoints.
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Totes agree with this, going by the v small number of trans people I know.

(obv there may be some people I know who are trans but I don’t know they are trans).
 
PTK said:
If transwomen are women, and some women can be described as “tomboys”, then some transwomen could be described as “tomboys”, but it has been stated that this term can only be applied to cis women. Someone who asserts that only cis women can be “tomboys” is implying that transwomen are not women. So it turns out that a certain person is transphobic after all.
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Matter is independent of the transgender mindset. Therefore, a pre-transition "trans woman" is not a woman but a fully transitioned trans woman is one. It is not transphobia. You're being idealist yet again with this opportunist, revisionist logic.
 
existentialist said:
I can well appreciate why you are so worried about Market Lentilism being discredited. It doesn't seem to be that hard to do...
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Yeah. Yesterday I got called a "gender abolitionist ML tankie" for exposing the liberal opportunists (right opportunism) because they were long before me, offended by the word "dude" that they had to do a mandatory check on who is fine with the word "dude", thereby dividing the people based on who is fine being called a dude and who isn't. Yammering about "gender-neutral usage and masculine usage" as they went on. Leftism in the West is an infantile disorder that was correctly predicted to happen.
 
Yugoslav said:
Matter is independent of the transgender mindset. Therefore, a pre-transition "trans woman" is not a woman but a fully transitioned trans woman is one. It is not transphobia. You're being idealist yet again with this opportunist, revisionist logic.
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According to you
 
InArduisFouette said:
tomboy is perfectly valid term for a cisgender woman whose interests and/or aesthetic are somewhat masculine without falling into the Butch /Stud area
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I'm really not sure it is. Decades of feminism are sort of undone if we get called a name every time we are perceived to do masculine things. I'm not sure how helpful labels are tbh unless a person chooses their label.
 
stethoscope said:
I never understood the label 'tomboy' even when I was younger, always seemed so clunky and old fashioned then, but I know women (cis and trans) who seem to be comfortable with it.
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I would say it definitely prevented me from playing football as a child. Which is a shame because I think I might have liked football.
 
ElizabethofYork said:
The term 'Tomboy' was used on a shaming way when i was a kid towards any girl who was sporty, or preferred wearing trousers, or didn't want to play with dolls all the time. It was pretty toxic.
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That's also my experience. Probably not as shaming as its counterpart (Which I suppose is cissy or something. Or later 'gay' which I used to lose my absolute shit over whenever any of the kids said it, and probably still would) but it was definitely a label that you didn't want at the time.
 
Yet there are people who say that young children are "trans" because they like engaging in certain activities.
 
And with that no answer came, so I refer people back to my post above. I mean, why not construct an argument if you're going to do it, not just that sort of blunt assertion?

Reasons for socially and medically transitioning is multi-faceted, trans and queer people are diverse, and in the past, gender clinics didnt help by placing rigid gendered expectation onto those seeking transition too ('meet what we're asking you to so we can help you' - I know two dyke trans women who had a tough time with their clinical psych years ago for how they 'presented' despite 'passing', such was the gatekeeping).

Again, there'll be discussions here around all of this. Am I the only one who gets frustrated at relative newbs who don't even search through old threads and these same old things seem to get re-hashed again and again? Praps I'm just fatigued of this place.
 
stethoscope said:
And with that no answer came, so I refer people back to my post above. I mean, why not construct an argument if you're going to do it, not just that sort of blunt assertion?

Reasons for socially and medically transitioning is multi-faceted, trans and queer people are diverse, and in the past, gender clinics didnt help by placing rigid gendered expectation onto those seeking transition too ('meet what we're asking you to so we can help you' - I know two dyke trans women who had a tough time with their clinical psych years ago for how they 'presented' despite 'passing', such was the gatekeeping).

Again, there'll be discussions here around all of this. Am I the only one who gets frustrated at relative newbs who don't even search through old threads and these same old things seem to get re-hashed again and again? Praps I'm just fatigued of this place.
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Great points, but I think rehashing things again and again is just part of the nature of discussion forums. Unfortunately points have to be remade over and over, and that doesn't just apply to this issue.

The lack of empathy from some posters I do sometimes find pretty shocking, but there are much worse corners of the internet out there for that.
 
PTK said:
Yet there are people who say that young children are "trans" because they like engaging in certain activities.
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Sadly, they do exist but they're a minority. Why would someone call their child "trans" if they do things of opposite gender?
 
PTK said:
Yet there are people who say that young children are "trans" because they like engaging in certain activities.
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wank -addled pornsick MAGAts/ Selfservatives in the main ,l but itls tuied to the views of masculinity and fixed gender roles that pervade with incels /MGTOW toxic masculinity as well
 
PTK said:
Yet there are people who say that young children are "trans" because they like engaging in certain activities.
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I thought you said you didn't get all your information about trans people from terfs? I don't think I've ever heard a trans person say a child is trans because they like certain things, and certainly no activist groups have that position. I have repeatedly heard gender critical people claim that is what trans activists think though.
 
smokedout said:
I thought you said you didn't get all your information about trans people from terfs? I don't think I've ever heard a trans person say a child is trans because they like certain things, and certainly no activist groups have that position. I have repeatedly heard gender critical people claim that is what trans activists think though.
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The people making these claims were pro-trans. They accepted that their children were trans.
Such comments are in line with the claim that gender is innate.
 
Yugoslav said:
Matter is independent of the transgender mindset. Therefore, a pre-transition "trans woman" is not a woman but a fully transitioned trans woman is one. It is not transphobia. You're being idealist yet again with this opportunist, revisionist logic.
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You only used the word 'revisionist' once in this post, so I can no longer take you seriously.
 
PTK said:
The people making these claims were pro-trans. They accepted that their children were trans.
Such comments are in line with the claim that gender is innate.
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Who were these people and can you provide a link please?

Of course some trans people, and gay people come to that, can identify childhood experiences around play as one of the first indicators that they were 'different'. It also might be something a parent would notice, in retrospect. Those observations are not the same thing as suggesting that all children who play in a way not along the lines of what is socially expected for their gender are trans.

But anyway please tell us who exactly is saying this, as you keep asserting.
 
PTK said:
The people making these claims were pro-trans. They accepted that their children were trans.
Such comments are in line with the claim that gender is innate.
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Is that all they said, or were they describing one aspect of a pattern of behaviour?

The idea that humans may possess some kind of innate gender/sex identity came from research into intersex kids and those were raised as one sex, usually due to a genital ambiguity which was surgically 'fixed', and then later rejected it.
 
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