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Gender idealism?

lazythursday said:
Who were these people and can you provide a link please?

Of course some trans people, and gay people come to that, can identify childhood experiences around play as one of the first indicators that they were 'different'. It also might be something a parent would notice, in retrospect. Those observations are not the same thing as suggesting that all children who play in a way not along the lines of what is socially expected for their gender are trans.

But anyway please tell us who exactly is saying this, as you keep asserting.
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I cannot provide such a link. I do not recall where I have seen such assertions.
Do you think that gender is innate?
 
I'm pretty sure that there was an example of a socialist state encouraging trans people to medically transition. Oh yeah, East Germany (DDR), addressed the issue of gender dysphoria and legalized free medical transition for people aged 18 and above.
 
Yugoslav said:
Matter is independent of the transgender mindset. Therefore, a pre-transition "trans woman" is not a woman but a fully transitioned trans woman is one. It is not transphobia. You're being idealist yet again with this opportunist, revisionist logic.
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One thing that everyone on this thread agrees with, apart from you, is that gender and sex are two different things. Gender is not a product what parts of the body someone may or may not possess.

A medical procedure cannot replace the human genome. Trans people still retain the genetic make-up they had before they transitioned, whether or not they had any kind of medical procedure. Your “materialist analysis” is therefore wrong.

All changes of gender involve social transition. Gender is socially defined. Whether or not the person changing gender has any kind of medical procedure, such as hormones or an operation, is irrelevant.

The prostate gland produces seminal fluid. If the prostate gland is removed, then a biological man can no longer ejaculate. If he was of the male gender before his prostate gland was removed, he remains of the male gender. If his testicles are removed, he remains of the male gender.

A biological woman of the female gender remains a member of the female gender if her uterus (womb) is removed. She remains of the female gender if her breasts are removed.

You seem completely ignorant of the Marxist concept of the relative autonomy of the superstructure. There is not a one-to-one relationship between cultural forms and material conditions. You do not understand the concept of gender at all.
 
PTK said:
The people making these claims were pro-trans. They accepted that their children were trans.
Such comments are in line with the claim that gender is innate.
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no the Genital cranks claim that 'woke DEI far left teachers ' rapidly and carelessly trans children becasue the children don't confirm with gender stereotypes.


The reality as we saw in the ITV drama 'Butterfly' is often disbelief and a considerable period of the child being insistent, consistent and persistent in their trans identity before family accept it and start on the bettle to get evidence based care - that was becasue the writers did their research
 
PTK said:
One thing that everyone on this thread agrees with, apart from you, is that gender and sex are two different things. Gender is not a product what parts of the body someone may or may not possess.

A medical procedure cannot replace the human genome. Trans people still retain the genetic make-up they had before they transitioned, whether or not they had any kind of medical procedure. Your “materialist analysis” is therefore wrong.

All changes of gender involve social transition. Gender is socially defined. Whether or not the person changing gender has any kind of medical procedure, such as hormones or an operation, is irrelevant.

The prostate gland produces seminal fluid. If the prostate gland is removed, then a biological man can no longer ejaculate. If he was of the male gender before his prostate gland was removed, he remains of the male gender. If his testicles are removed, he remains of the male gender.

A biological woman of the female gender remains a member of the female gender if her uterus (womb) is removed. She remains of the female gender if her breasts are removed.

You seem completely ignorant of the Marxist concept of the relative autonomy of the superstructure. There is not a one-to-one relationship between cultural forms and material conditions. You do not understand the concept of gender at all.
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you are factually incorrect

GAHT materially changes people , including their DNA

clinicalepigeneticsjournal.biomedcentral.com

Gender-affirming hormone therapy induces specific DNA methylation changes in blood - Clinical Epigenetics

Background DNA methylation is an epigenetic mark that is influenced by underlying genetic profile, environment, and ageing. In addition to X-linked DNA methylation, sex-specific methylation patterns are widespread across autosomal chromosomes and can be present from birth or arise over time. In...
clinicalepigeneticsjournal.biomedcentral.com clinicalepigeneticsjournal.biomedcentral.com


and oddly enough everyone has prostatic tissue =- the 'Skene's gland' is the Prostate just accomodated in 'female' anatomy
 
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lazythursday said:
Who were these people and can you provide a link please?

Of course some trans people, and gay people come to that, can identify childhood experiences around play as one of the first indicators that they were 'different'. It also might be something a parent would notice, in retrospect. Those observations are not the same thing as suggesting that all children who play in a way not along the lines of what is socially expected for their gender are trans.

But anyway please tell us who exactly is saying this, as you keep asserting.
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he'll be unable to provide a reference for that as it's only ever transphobes that claim not following gender stereotypes is a cause of being trans ,. completely ignoring what the ICD has said since ICD 10 came out ( f64.0 and f64.2) and what it says in ICD 11

Gender incongruence and transgender health in the ICD

www.who.int www.who.int
 
smokedout said:
Is that all they said, or were they describing one aspect of a pattern of behaviour?

The idea that humans may possess some kind of innate gender/sex identity came from research into intersex kids and those were raised as one sex, usually due to a genital ambiguity which was surgically 'fixed', and then later rejected it.
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and don't forget that John Money believed that gender identity was a tabula rasa and the Reimers presented an opportunity for him to indulge his Mengele like fetishistic obsession
 
smokedout said:
Do you mean gender or gender identity?
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because Gender Identity is fundamental internal, innate, part of the Gender

Gender presentation is performative and under a greater degree of control by the individual

Gender roles are externally imposed on society - generally based on presentation

the fact we have to go through gender 001 topics here says a lot aobut how badly the OP has missed the point with this thread
 
I think this is more interesting than Money's work given he was a lying abusive shit: Discordant Sexual Identity in Some Genetic Males with Cloacal Exstrophy Assigned to Female Sex at Birth - PMC

BACKGROUND Cloacal exstrophy is a rare, complex defect of the entire pelvis and its contents that occurs during embryogenesis and is associated with severe phallic inadequacy or phallic absence in genetic males. For about 25 years, neonatal assignment to female sex has been advocated for affected males to overcome the issue of phallic inadequacy, but data on outcome remain sparse.


METHODS We assessed all 16 genetic males in our cloacal-exstrophy clinic at the ages of 5 to 16 years. Fourteen underwent neonatal assignment to female sex socially, legally, and surgically; the parents of the remaining two refused to do so. Detailed questionnaires extensively evaluated the development of sexual role and identity, as defined by the subjects' persistent declarations of their sex.


RESULTS Eight of the 14 subjects assigned to female sex declared themselves male during the course of this study*, whereas the 2 raised as males remained male. Subjects could be grouped according to their stated sexual identity. Five subjects were living as females; three were living with unclear sexual identity, although two of the three had declared themselves male; and eight were living as males, six of whom had reassigned themselves to male sex. All 16 subjects had moderate-to-marked interests and attitudes that were considered typical of males. Follow-up ranged from 34 to 98 months.
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*four of these subjects declared male identity spontaneously, at the ages of 7, 9, 9, and 12 years, although the parents of two persistently rejected these declarations. Four others declared male identity after their parents revealed to them that their birth status was male, at ages 5, 7, 7, and 18 years.

There have been other studies with similar results. Interestingly the study showed that five subjects "persistently declared unwavering female identity" although I think you'd probably have to question parental influence and whether they remained that way in adulthood. But most didn't. This could demonstrate a social element to the formation of gender identity, or it could indicate that gender identity tends to be stronger felt, or more binary in some people but not everyone - which is what we are seeing with the emergence of non binary and other more fluid identities.
 
smokedout said:
I think this is more interesting than Money's work given he was a lying abusive shit: Discordant Sexual Identity in Some Genetic Males with Cloacal Exstrophy Assigned to Female Sex at Birth - PMC



*four of these subjects declared male identity spontaneously, at the ages of 7, 9, 9, and 12 years, although the parents of two persistently rejected these declarations. Four others declared male identity after their parents revealed to them that their birth status was male, at ages 5, 7, 7, and 18 years.

There have been other studies with similar results. Interestingly the study showed that five subjects "persistently declared unwavering female identity" although I think you'd probably have to question parental influence and whether they remained that way in adulthood. But most didn't. This could demonstrate a social element to the formation of gender identity, or it could indicate that gender identity tends to be stronger felt, or more binary in some people but not everyone - which is what we are seeing with the emergence of non binary and other more fluid identities.
Click to expand...
yes it's interesting but you seem to want to draw some conclusions that canot be drawn, because contrary to the simplistic models beloved of the politicians human sex is not a simple binary at all, it is at best bimodal.
 
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PTK said:
One thing that everyone on this thread agrees with, apart from you, is that gender and sex are two different things. Gender is not a product what parts of the body someone may or may not possess.

A medical procedure cannot replace the human genome. Trans people still retain the genetic make-up they had before they transitioned, whether or not they had any kind of medical procedure. Your “materialist analysis” is therefore wrong.

All changes of gender involve social transition. Gender is socially defined. Whether or not the person changing gender has any kind of medical procedure, such as hormones or an operation, is irrelevant.

The prostate gland produces seminal fluid. If the prostate gland is removed, then a biological man can no longer ejaculate. If he was of the male gender before his prostate gland was removed, he remains of the male gender. If his testicles are removed, he remains of the male gender.

A biological woman of the female gender remains a member of the female gender if her uterus (womb) is removed. She remains of the female gender if her breasts are removed.

You seem completely ignorant of the Marxist concept of the relative autonomy of the superstructure. There is not a one-to-one relationship between cultural forms and material conditions. You do not understand the concept of gender at all.
Click to expand...
Hence why a full transition should emancipate most of that gender dysphoria from harming the transgender person into depression and dark feelings.
 
When a Bosnian tries to talk to first world liberals, it's clear that it is impossible to talk in the same language of things. Sure, English is global, but in the sense of convo and arguing, it seems that either there are those who are close enough and some who are far away.
 
Yugoslav said:
When a Bosnian tries to talk to first world liberals, it's clear that it is impossible to talk in the same language of things. Sure, English is global, but in the sense of convo and arguing, it seems that either there are those who are close enough and some who are far away.
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I don't need the 'help' of transphobes

now is a really good time to log out and forget your password
 
Yugoslav said:
Nevermind the copy pasta you had to do. Anyways I recommend this video if you wanna know why first world leftism is literally colonizing other leftists.

Click to expand...

don't need the 'help' of transphobes

now is a really good time to log out and forget your password

do you really want to lose your (current / most recent ) account ?
 
My attitude at the age of 21, when I finally quit dodging the uncomfortable topic and faced it head-on, was that if there wasn't anything WRONG with me for being physiologically XYish aka "male" but essentially being one of the girls in all the ways that mattered, then nothing was in need of fixing. Or at least not within ME. Society, on the other damn hand...

a) I don't know if "it" is innate or social, for me or for my species as a whole. I mean, I definitely made some internal decisions. I can remember being eight (3rd grade in the US) and deciding to take certain actions to distinguish me from the (rest of the?) boys. But was there something innate within me that led me to make that decision? I certainly don't know.

b) Meanwhile, though, the unspoken but often-implicit notion that it's only OKAY if it's built-in ("because they had no choice! so you have to accept them!") really flattens my ears.

c) I support my trans brothers and sisters who seek surgery, and also those who opt to present in such a way as to be perceived and treated as a person of the physiological SEX that in our binary world is linked to the GENDER that is theirs. I don't do either, I'm one of those in-your-face genderqueers who tells you flat-out that I'm a male girl and you gotta deal with there being more than two possible identities and make room in your head for folks like me. I have no interest in passing as a cis woman. I also do other things to disrupt the perception that I'm a cis man. So as a consequence, I resist any across-the-board push towards "Gee, medical transition is good and wonderful, hey kid there are other people just like you and they transitioned and it fixed everything and you can too" as the appropriate progressive enlightened attitude to carry around. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be available to anyone who wants it and feels it's the right road for them though.
 
AHunter3 said:
My attitude at the age of 21, when I finally quit dodging the uncomfortable topic and faced it head-on, was that if there wasn't anything WRONG with me for being physiologically XYish aka "male" but essentially being one of the girls in all the ways that mattered, then nothing was in need of fixing. Or at least not within ME. Society, on the other damn hand...

a) I don't know if "it" is innate or social, for me or for my species as a whole. I mean, I definitely made some internal decisions. I can remember being eight (3rd grade in the US) and deciding to take certain actions to distinguish me from the (rest of the?) boys. But was there something innate within me that led me to make that decision? I certainly don't know.

b) Meanwhile, though, the unspoken but often-implicit notion that it's only OKAY if it's built-in ("because they had no choice! so you have to accept them!") really flattens my ears.

c) I support my trans brothers and sisters who seek surgery, and also those who opt to present in such a way as to be perceived and treated as a person of the physiological SEX that in our binary world is linked to the GENDER that is theirs. I don't do either, I'm one of those in-your-face genderqueers who tells you flat-out that I'm a male girl and you gotta deal with there being more than two possible identities and make room in your head for folks like me. I have no interest in passing as a cis woman. I also do other things to disrupt the perception that I'm a cis man. So as a consequence, I resist any across-the-board push towards "Gee, medical transition is good and wonderful, hey kid there are other people just like you and they transitioned and it fixed everything and you can too" as the appropriate progressive enlightened attitude to carry around. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be available to anyone who wants it and feels it's the right road for them though.
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"male girl"

You either a tomboy or you're a girl passing as a man but refuse to trans into one but you feel being called a "man"? Very very confusing to read.
 
Yeah at this point this is just fire. Let me reassert my stance that me supporting medical transition cannot be transphobia at all. In Bosnia, you must undergo a full surgery in order to change gender identity. By law, I am not guilty of correctly addressing my former friend as a tomboy. I would be guilty if I discriminated her on the basis of gender but since I was doing my best to be her good friend without getting slapped with the "transphobia" word in my face all the time, I clearly cannot be guilty per the Bosnian law.
 
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