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Gaza under attack yet again.

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frogwoman said:
How can Israel's image possibly recover from this?
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They'll keep pushing the "Israel = good/Palestine = bad" line. They don't seem to learn from their mistakes and are more willing to blame others rather than look to themselves. How long can this last? As long as the Revisionists and their allies dominate the discourse.
 
FridgeMagnet said:
You might as well say they must walk around the world with a flower in their buttocks. They have no intention of doing either.
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And never really has. Instead, successive governments have used the "cover" provided by ceasefires (and the concomitant lack of international media coverage to increase encroachment and settlement of the Occupied Territories (42,000 in '85, over 300,000 by 2010), or "facts on the ground" as they have memorably called them.
How do we know this is true? Because generations of Palestinians have made concessions, and yet those concessions are never enough, and new reasons are always found by the state of Israel for peace to not bloom.
 
uk benzo said:
But to be honest, all of the propaganda that has come out from them this time around has been crude and brutish. It's like they're following a 1950s anti-communist propaganda guide book written by captain America.
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TBF, Steve Rogers/Captain America would be more nuanced.
 
weltweit said:
Yes I agree Israel has done this before, but still American money flows in, and arguably Iron Dome works, sure Israelis have warning sirens and must run to their shelters, but Hamas rockets are window dressing compared with the military Israel has on hand and not likely to force Israel to the negotiating table.

I wonder about Hamas's charter. Would Hamas get more international sympathy, and an easier route to the negotiating table if they removed their aim of destroying Israel? A lot of pro Israel commentators (especially Americans) use Hamas's charter as a reason to discount them entirely.
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I'm getting ever so slightly tired of correcting you about this. HAMAS' charter doesn't state an aim of "destroying Israel", it's about destroying the Zionist state.
Why? Because the Zionism on display when HAMAS' charter was written amounted to anti-Palestianism and a clear intention to eventually expropriate the entirety of the Occupied Territories from the Palestinians. Annexation by stealth.
 
Doctor Carrot said:
Hasbara IS the actions of the state. You know the social media stuff is tosh, I know it's tosh and so do most people on this thread. Bibi does indeed care about what the world thinks, well what America thinks, hence the constant bombardment of horse shit. Why else would they actually pay students to tweet positive slogans about Israel? This sort of horse shit needs to be swallowed in America, and it is, because if Israel starts to lose the support of American Zionists, and there are signs that it is, then the project is in serious shit.
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Hasbara is not just the actions of the state, though. It's also the actions of independent actors in support of the state for their own (generally instrumental) reasons.
 
ViolentPanda said:
Hasbara is not just the actions of the state, though. It's also the actions of independent actors in support of the state for their own (generally instrumental) reasons.
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Very much so. Aided and abetted by Islamophobic and right-wing groups in Europe and the US.

Btw: Islamophobia is not a word according to my spell checker (Firefox on Linux) :confused:
 
frogwoman said:
Check out @delexical's Tweet:

Shocking...this is what the official Israeli embassy in Ireland tweeted last night.

This is breivikite shit.
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Incredible, they are getting desperate if this is the level they are stooping to.
 
Not sure if its been covered on the thread before, but why do people think the Israel issue gets so much attention compared to, say, Syria or what Isis are up to in Iraq?

I sit next to a Pakistani muslim woman at work and whilst she agrees its a dire situation in Gaza, she thinks that problems in the aforementioned countries dwarf Gaza, and world attention is diverted from the absolute hell of Syria and northern Iraq, where the death tolls alone are staggering, let alone the child murder and torture.
 
ViolentPanda said:
I'm getting ever so slightly tired of correcting you about this. HAMAS' charter doesn't state an aim of "destroying Israel", it's about destroying the Zionist state.
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If I am misstating the Hamas charter then I am not alone. Many think it calls for the destruction of Israel and the killing of all jews. In my looking at various translations of it, I can't find reference to the destruction of Zionism:

Hamas Covenant (Wikipedia)
The charter states that "our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious" and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories,[2] and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel.[3][4]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Covenant [/quote]

Many of them start with a quote:
Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp[/quote]

Also: http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/www.../carryover/documents/charter.html?chocaid=397

eta: The BBC on Hamas:
Profile: Hamas Palestinian movement
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-13331522
Under the group's charter, Hamas is committed to the destruction of Israel.
BBC also links to: http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp

I looked at a couple more translations searching for Zion and Israel and did not find more.

Do you recommend a particular translation of the Hamas Charter?

ViolentPanda said:
Why? Because the Zionism on display when HAMAS' charter was written amounted to anti-Palestianism and a clear intention to eventually expropriate the entirety of the Occupied Territories from the Palestinians. Annexation by stealth.
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D'wards said:
Not sure if its been covered on the thread before, but why do people think the Israel issue gets so much attention compared to, say, Syria or what Isis are up to in Iraq?

I sit next to a Pakistani muslim woman at work and whilst she agrees its a dire situation in Gaza, she thinks that problems in the aforementioned countries dwarf Gaza, and world attention is diverted from the absolute hell of Syria and northern Iraq, where the death tolls alone are staggering, let alone the child murder and torture.
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Several reasons.
1. Jerusalem houses the third most holy site for Muslims.
2. The conflict has been ongoing for so long, it has mentally scarred so many generations of Muslims worldwide.
3. The racist rhetoric that comes from the zionists on a regular basis just further polarises the Muslim world.
4. The Syrian conflict is complicated. We mostly despise Bashar, but we don't want the cluster fuck that is ISIS.

There are loads of other reasons.
 
weltweit said:
If I am misstating the Hamas charter then I am not alone. Many think it calls for the destruction of Israel and the killing of all jews. In my looking at various translations of it, I can't find reference to the destruction of Zionism:

Hamas Covenant (Wikipedia)
The charter states that "our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious" and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories,[2] and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel.[3][4]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Covenant

Many of them start with a quote:
Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp

Also: http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/www.../carryover/documents/charter.html?chocaid=397

I looked at a couple more translations searching for Zion and Israel and did not find more.

Do you recommend a particular translation of the Hamas Charter?
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They should scrap that charter & start over. It's stupid to give Israel and right wing pundits the talking points that come from it.
 
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TomUS said:
They should scrap that charter & start over. It's stupid to give Israel and right wing pundits the talking points that come from it.
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I don't think you understand the importance of the Charter. It may have been written by a bunch of over-excited teenagers cowering in a basement, but it's the Founding Document.

Might as well suggest the US scrap the Constitution and adopt something that offers a workable government :D

And if Hamas did scrap it, a True Believer organisation would spring up within seconds...
 
uk benzo said:
Several reasons.
1. Jerusalem houses the third most holy site for Muslims.
2. The conflict has been ongoing for so long, it has mentally scarred so many generations of Muslims worldwide.
3. The racist rhetoric that comes from the zionists on a regular basis just further polarises the Muslim world.
4. The Syrian conflict is complicated. We mostly despise Bashar, but we don't want the cluster fuck that is ISIS.

There are loads of other reasons.
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This is useful to discuss actually, I might start a thread. Mainly because this is something Israel's apologists usually use a defence and it's the only thing I have any sort of trouble countering.

Stuff like this is a prime example:

Screen-Shot-2014-07-22-at-4.37.37-PM.png

I've seen different variations on this theme where they list other wars and the death tolls, such as Iran/Iraq conflict. There is some truth to it isn't there? My point is how exactly to counter it? I do give some sort of explanation by talking about length of time it's gone on, how Gaza's basically a prison, how many of the listed conflicts are essentially civil wars and how this conflict is probably one of the more straight forward to solve out of all of them but I don't feel my answers are quite strong enough.
 
ViolentPanda said:
I especially like "...the terror group that violently seized control of the Strip in 2007...".
Obviously, that should be "...the terror group that democratically seized control of the Strip in 2007...", but the poor dear is probably overwrought.
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Israel did a lot to damage Fatah during the 2006 election
Net result is that Hamas won - 44.45% of the popular vote - rather better than Bibis posse, Likud, on 23.34%
Reap what you sow an all that


Wonder if they wish they hadn't banged Marwan Barghouti up?
 
uk benzo said:
If you want to play their context-free game, specify that the number of Palestinians killed in Ghazza in 2 weeks of bombing is 1060.

This equates to a yearly number of 26440 deaths in Ghazza alone.
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And then point out that Syria has a population about ten times the size of Gaza's so in terms of deaths per head the killing is more than twice as intense in Gaza.
 
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