Gramsci
Well-Known Member
I would recommend it as its made by a Palestinian who started filming his friends protesting at Israeli encroachment on their land.
So its from the point of view of an average Palestinian.
Gaza under attack yet again.
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I would recommend it as its made by a Palestinian who started filming his friends protesting at Israeli encroachment on their land.
So its from the point of view of an average Palestinian.
Theisticle
Well-Known Member
Dynamite stuff: http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/07/hamas-didnt-kidnap-the-israeli-teens-after-all.html
Basically confirms what Finkelstein and others said, Hamas was not directly responsible for the kidnapping and murder of three Israeli teens.
Basically confirms what Finkelstein and others said, Hamas was not directly responsible for the kidnapping and murder of three Israeli teens.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
One of my paternal great-grandfathers died at Ypres, and yet I don't hold that against anyone - what's done is done. Nothing can change that.
Most of my maternal extended family died either under the Soviets, due to the starving of Ukraine, or from the Nazi einsatzgruppen that swept through Ukraine behind the army. I'm a couple of generations away from that, too, and yet I don't hold it against anyone, or fixate upon my "victimhood".
Much of what goes on with the state of Israel with appeals to past historical persecutions are, in my opinion, nothing more than attempts to secure exceptionalism - "you shouldn't hold this against us, because we were so badly persecuted and traumatised" - well fuck that! We're human beings, and capable of growing beyond such childishness, and it seems to me that the state of Israel isn't keen on Jews doing so, because then a plank of modern Zionist thought - Jewish exceptionalism - goes out of the window, and a justification (actually an excuse) for appallingly murderous behaviour likewise goes out of the window.
It's not intended to be a justification or an excuse. If you understand the reasons why people (countries) act, it helps.
I'm not meaning to be vulnerable to the old "understand a little less, condemn a little more" criticism. I just think a simple blanket, Israel are evil doesn't go anywhere.
I'm not meaning to be vulnerable to the old "understand a little less, condemn a little more" criticism. I just think a simple blanket, Israel are evil doesn't go anywhere.
I don't understand how the death toll is so low, I know that's a terrible thing to say. I have thought that on previous occasions too.
Pinpoint attacks
Which pic has been pinpointed, which has been carpet bombed?
hipipol
Peckham Wry
Bibi and crew knew this in pretty much real time
Wanted to attack Gaza
Simply didn't let the truth block them
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Was the same argument used (and still is used) by Serb nationalists.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
It's a victory.
Different type of munition to what comes down on Sderot. Basically using the Fajr 5 missile design, a rip-off of an Iranian short/intermediate range missile. It's hard to build, hard to hide and resource-heavy, hence the Gazan resisters tend to build few and husband them.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
It's always been a poor argument, and always will be. Unfortunately, when the world's superpowers have set prior examples of exceptionalism, everyone else thinks that they have permission to follow.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
In fact, the sort of stuff that's more worring than a Reaper because it has a tiny footprint, is quiet if you're using battery-powered motors rather than liquid fuel motors, and can be in and out of an area before anyone notices it, if the handler is skilled. Perfect eye-in-the-sky material for about the same price as a couple of pairs of decent night vision goggles.
dylanredefined
Not a house elf a tiger
I don't understand how the death toll is so low, I know that's a terrible thing to say. I have thought that on previous occasions too.
Because they get a warning message to leave.
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
Ok, I didn't know that so thanks - should I take from this that they have a few half-decent missiles which they tend not to use very often?
I'm still not sold on the "causing complaints as victory" thing.
I don't understand how the death toll is so low, I know that's a terrible thing to say. I have thought that on previous occasions too.
Modern medicine has progressed hugely in dealing with traumatic injuries compared to recent decades and the doctors in Gaza have years of experience in dealing with trauma as well as having volunteers from other nations. The number of injured, mutilated and maimed for life will sadly be absolutely massive of course.
Israel don't think what they are doing is wrong, so why would they be using an excuse?
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Because the possibility of them being deployed means that those towns within the range of these mortar "rockets" have to keep on a "war" footing; because "Iron Dome" has to be deployed on standby 24 hours a day, rather than being stood down for long periods; because the troops and civil defence workers in those towns will suffer all the issues that being on a "front line" brings, even though they're not in an active theatre.
Talk to anyone who served in Northern Ireland. Ask them what it was like to do 4 or 6 months where you're rarely ever in "relaxed" mode, where you're constantly hyper-vigilant, even in your sleep. It takes a toll.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Because it would be very poor tactics to enter in strength in a built-up environment (even if most of it is rubble) with a task that would require being static for any length of time (searching derelict buildings/rubble would mean being static for at least tens of minutes in poor cover. Add to that an enemy that has access to a network of tunnels that you have no maps for, no clue to access or egress points, and would you put troops in a situation where they could be walking into intersecting fields of fire at any point in their mission?
This is why they're shelling. They know the human cost of a ground invasion in strength; they know that if they send armour in, in support of infantry, they also have to send excavation gear to clear a path; they're aware that shelling from a distance incurs a minimum human cost on the state of Israel, as does sending in reconnaisance patrols and special forces only - a human cost acceptable to the public. If the IDF were incurring casualties at the same rate as Gazans are, the IDF would have been pulled out in days, and "search and destroy" missions hunting for missiles which may or may not be fictitious would incur a lot of casualties.
Or maybe it's not just about the tunnels?
Presumably without the tunnels there would be a whole lot more work for Israel because as I understand it many of the necessities of daily life go into Gaza through tunnels. Even Israel could not slowly choke 2 million people to death.
Presumably without the tunnels there would be a whole lot more work for Israel because as I understand it many of the necessities of daily life go into Gaza through tunnels. Even Israel could not slowly choke 2 million people to death.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Someone was pointing out that destroying all the tunnels is basically a genocidal act.
I don't think it's about the tunnels. Anyway, yeah.
Can anybody recommend an impartial dummies guide to the history of this conflict/ the current situation. I've heard of the Oslo agreement but that's about it. I prefer short and sweet to long and weighty.
Thank you.
eta it's ok I found 2.
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Very true, even if the IDF razed Gaza to the ground most of Hamas underground defences would survive. The IDF have found a few tunnels but the vast majority remain intact and functioning and as you rightly say no way will the IDF dare to come looking for them even among the ruins of a destroyed city.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
After reading LP's article on Gaza etc (it was a bit "stream of consciousness", and as usual La Pennionara managed to make it all about her), and reading the rest of the New Statesman, I was annoyed but unsurprised at how most of their reportage attempted to somehow render HAMAS as actual rather than putative aggressors. Typical wiberal philo-Semite bollocks.
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
I get that it would have a huge psychological impact on anyone living there. I understand that you're saying that being an annoyance constitutes meaningful resistance (although I'm sceptical). I remain convinced that the rockets are far more about Hamas cementing their image as freedom fighters than anything else.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Bear in mind we're talking about 2 broad "species" of tunnel:
1) The border smuggling tunnels, and
2) the bunker/tunnel complexes beneath parts of Gaza, used for anything from food and fuel storage, to paramilitary training and war materiel storage.
What the state of Israel are doing, is claiming to be targeting this second class of tunnels, when they're bombing hospitals and clinics and schools, although of course there's absolutely no proof that there are any subterranean spaces beneath these venues, and there's no way to detect them via satellite in a built-up area, in fact the only way to detect them is manually, or through infiltration and informing.
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
Got a link? This should be delightful...
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
I've never heard about IDF veterans being bumped off (on the whole most states use the image of injured veterans to bolster support), but I've heard trickles of conversation over the last 30 years about the more severely-disabled veterans being encouraged to emigrate to somewhere with better accessibility and a higher level of "disability-friendliness" - usually the US.
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
Oh thanks. I only knew about the first kind of tunnels.
Actually I just googled and it seems that Egypt have destroyed most of the tunnels in the later part of last year. I don't know if they were operating again more recently.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Link to Laurie Penny's piece.
The rest of the pieces in this week's issue can be accessed through the home page.
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