Gaza under attack yet again.

[frogwoman]

I think it's better to be inside the tent, pissing out, IYSWIM, as it at least means that the occasional (and they are still only occasional, thankfully) anti-Semite gets challenged by the membership, if not by the organisation itself (who I think are too afraid by far of criticising Muslim members who pull this sort of shit, for fear of being called racists).

I was worried that thinking of rejoining would be a bit too much like joining the labour party to push it to the left lol but maybe if I joined again it could be quite good I mean I imagine they are having a surge in membership?

 

[frogwoman]

I think it's better to be inside the tent, pissing out, IYSWIM, as it at least means that the occasional (and they are still only occasional, thankfully) anti-Semite gets challenged by the membership, if not by the organisation itself (who I think are too afraid by far of criticising Muslim members who pull this sort of shit, for fear of being called racists).

Maybe I should go to a few meetings here and see how it goes?

 

[elbows]

Probably the only sanctions that could meaningfully affect the state of Israel would be to curtail imports of raw materials into the country, as they make a fair bit out of finished goods (especially military hardware) that they have no indigenous materials to manufacture.
Won't happen, of course.

As with some other countries, the military industrial complex stuff has evolved into a broader tech sector. There was some concern expressed in Haaretz last year that almost half their export revenue comes from 10 companies:

http://www.haaretz.com/business/.premium-1.534670

Israel’s 10 biggest exporters are accounting for a growing proportion of total exports. In 2007, exports by the G-10 companies comprised 36.4% of total exports; by 2012, they made up 47.7%, according to Export Institute figures. In the first quarter, exports by all the others contracted 5% from a year earlier while total exports increased 4% to $11.5 billion. That was thanks to a 14% jump in overseas sales by the G-10 to $5.75 billion.

The G-10 list comprises the U.S. semiconductor maker Intel, defense electronics company Elbit Systems, Oil Refineries Ltd., Teva Pharmaceuticals, machine tool maker Iscar, Israel Chemicals Ltd., agrochemicals company Makhteshim Agan, Paz Oil, Israel Aerospace and HP Indigo, a maker of digital printers.

 

[frogwoman]

I'm quite sure that part of IDF doctrine is to destroy the capacity of Palestinian society.

How much that is spelled out and how much is left to the initiative of unit commanders... that should be a matter for the war crimes tribunal.

Its incredible how they manage to keep going in such conditions isn't it? The Palestinians I mean.

 

[ViolentPanda]

in the warsaw 'cleansing' the nazis were able to get away with it because of appeasers, disinterest and lack of readily available information outside of press surely?

"We" knew about the situation in Warsaw, wee even communicated it to our eastern allies, but none of us cared enough to actually do anything - indeed there's quite a lot of evidence showing that the Soviets deliberately held back until the ghetto was liquidated.

Although on that point I did discuss with VP the other night wether anyone could actually be so long-term evil to constantly hit schools, hospitals and infrastructure with the intention of producing generations of malnourished and weakened people who are less and less able to mount even the token defence we see now- as well as encouraging anyone who can afford (in financial AND familial terms) to leave.

I don't think I'm taking the jazz pills here either, those 'think the unthinkable' sorts do do these strategising thoughts...

Having reflected on our convo a bit more, I also think that Israel sees the Occupied Territories, as well as the refugee camps in Lebanon, Syria, Egypt and Jordan as both an object lesson to their neighbours, and as a way of illustrating the myth of pan-Arabism to the ignorant - that is, to the ignorant, the state of Israel can say "look, these regimes haven't naturalised their brother Arabs, even though they've been in those camps for 40/50/60 years", neatly eliding the fact that many Palestinians have resisted being naturalised into the populations of those countries because they wish to retain their Palestinian identity.

 

[thriller]

Claim and counter-claim so no-one seems really certain

hmm. i wouldn't trust the zionist propaganda machine. they have a history of censoring. fingers crossed he is captured.

 

[frogwoman]

"We" knew about the situation in Warsaw, wee even communicated it to our eastern allies, but none of us cared enough to actually do anything - indeed there's quite a lot of evidence showing that the Soviets deliberately held back until the ghetto was liquidated.



Having reflected on our convo a bit more, I also think that Israel sees the Occupied Territories, as well as the refugee camps in Lebanon, Syria, Egypt and Jordan as both an object lesson to their neighbours, and as a way of illustrating the myth of pan-Arabism to the ignorant - that is, to the ignorant, the state of Israel can say "look, these regimes haven't naturalised their brother Arabs, even though they've been in those camps for 40/50/60 years", neatly eliding the fact that many Palestinians have resisted being naturalised into the populations of those countries because they wish to retain their Palestinian identity.

Well the Palestinians have been treated horribly by many Arab regimes but it hardly justifies what Israel is doing!

 

[ViolentPanda]

I was worried that thinking of rejoining would be a bit too much like joining the labour party to push it to the left lol but maybe if I joined again it could be quite good I mean I imagine they are having a surge in membership?

I would have thought so, given the (unprecedented even by 2012 standards) level of journalistic bias that people have been handed.

 

[frogwoman]

I would have thought so, given the (unprecedented even by 2012 standards) level of journalistic bias that people have been handed.

Shall I go to a meeting and give it a go then?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Well the Palestinians have been treated horribly by many Arab regimes but it hardly justifies what Israel is doing!

Hmmm, my point isn't that the Arab states have shat on the Palestinians per se, it's that contrary to what the state of Israel preaches, those refugee populations don't want to be assimilated into being Egyptians, Syrians, Jordanians or Lebanese - they want to remain Palestinians, and doing so has often caused conflict with and within the states where they are "guests".

 

[teqniq]

Shall I go to a meeting and give it a go then?

hats off and best of luck to you if you do

 

[ViolentPanda]

Shall I go to a meeting and give it a go then?

I think it's worth a try. You can always walk away if it's too wanky.

 

[frogwoman]

Hmmm, my point isn't that the Arab states have shat on the Palestinians per se, it's that contrary to what the state of Israel preaches, those refugee populations don't want to be assimilated into being Egyptians, Syrians, Jordanians or Lebanese - they want to remain Palestinians, and doing so has often caused conflict with and within the states where they are "guests".

Well the Israeli government makes out they are all 'Arabs' but the Palestinians have a distinct identity, language, food, music etc.

 

[frogwoman]

Well the Israeli government makes out they are all 'Arabs' but the Palestinians have a distinct identity, language, food, music etc.

Oh and I hate that fucking 'no such thing as Palestinians' thing that supporters of Israel always go on about.

 

[Limerick Red]

Recent Abu Ali Mustafa Brigades actions:

AAMB announced that it ambushed occupation soldiers east of Khan Younis and
engaged with them directly, saying there were serious injuries in the ranks
of the soldiers. It also announced that in a joint operation with the
Brigades of the Martyr Abdelqader Husseini it confronted the enemy near the
airport in Rafah, engaging them with a variety of weapons.

On Sunday, AAMB reported:

AAMB fighters clashed directly with occupation forces behind Kafarneh
Street near the Agricultural College north of Beit Hanoun at 2:50 AM.
AAMB and Abdelqader Husseini Brigades infiltrated and engaged occupation
forces at the Rafah airport area and confronted them with a variety of
weapons including 4 107 type missiles.
Targeting enemy artillery east of Shujaiya at 12:45 AM.


On Saturday, July 19:

AAMB bombarded Eshkol settlement with three missiles at 11:00 PM.
Ambushing ememy soldiers and clashing with them with confirmed casualties
in their ranks
Clashes with enemy forces in joint action with other resistance forces
Targeting the enemy at Kerem Abu Salem at 10:15 pm with missiles
Fighting with Israeli special forces in northern Beit Hanoun, causing
confirmed enemy casualties
Firing three rockets toward Bir Saba at 9:15 pm.
The thirteenth day of the attack Saturday, 19/07/2014 AD
In a joint operation with the Nasser Salahuddin Brigades, targeting
occupation military northwest of Beit Lahiya with anti-tank missiles,
hitting their equipment directly at 7:25 pm
Clashing with the occupation forces in one of the houses destroyed by their
attacks in northern Beit Hanoun at 6:30 pm.
Bombarding Eshkol settlement with missiles at 3:00 PM
Confronting Zionist special forces that attempted to infiltrate Gaza
Bombarding Asqelan with a Grad rocket at 3:00 AM

 

[thriller]

I wish them all the best.

 

[quiquaquo]

Oh and I hate that fucking 'no such thing as Palestinians' thing that supporters of Israel always go on about.

What do you and VP think of this lot, I have a dodgy relative by marriage in it: http://jfjfp.com/

 

[frogwoman]

What do you and VP think of this lot, I have a dodgy relative by marriage in it: http://jfjfp.com/

Got mixed feelings tbh. Can I do a proper reply in a sec?

 

[quiquaquo]

Got mixed feelings tbh. Can I do a proper reply in a sec?

Sure, I agree.

 

[frogwoman]

Sure, I agree.

OK this is probably massively incoherent but, my main problem with organizations like this is the whole fact that I don't think that feeling bad about your Jewish identity and flagellating yourself is a good start for solidarity with the Palestinian people, by that I don't mean any sort of Zionist 'self-hating Jew' stuff but a lot of the tone of some of these groups makes me feel quite uncomfortable, such as the stunt in occupy wall street they posted with activists 'pledging to hold themselves accountable for the occupation of Palestine'? In addition, I don't see how sometimes these groups are more than identity politics based on guilt and I feel a bit uncomfortable joining a politically minded group on the basis of religion. If I was going to join a pro Palestinian group I would prefer to join one that wasn't just for someone of a certain religion and wasn't just identity politics of feeling guilty.

also I get the feeling that a lot of them are quite middle class and not really involved with the community, whereas personally I think the best way might be to stay involved and continue to practice my faith as I am doing but try to talk to people about Palestine wherever I can?

I might decide I am talking bollocks so don't take this as the gospel, no pun intended

 

[quiquaquo]

OK this is probably massively incoherent but, my main problem with organizations like this is the whole fact that I don't think that feeling bad about your Jewish identity and flagellating yourself is a good start for solidarity with the Palestinian people, by that I don't mean any sort of Zionist 'self-hating Jew' stuff but a lot of the tone of some of these groups makes me feel quite uncomfortable, such as the stunt in occupy wall street they posted with activists 'pledging to hold themselves accountable for the occupation of Palestine'? In addition, I don't see how sometimes these groups are more than identity politics based on guilt and I feel a bit uncomfortable joining a politically minded group on the basis of religion. If I was going to join a pro Palestinian group I would prefer to join one that wasn't just for someone of a certain religion and wasn't just identity politics of feeling guilty.

also I get the feeling that a lot of them are quite middle class and not really involved with the community, whereas personally I think the best way might be to stay involved and continue to practice my faith as I am doing but try to talk to people about Palestine wherever I can?

I might decide I am talking bollocks so don't take this as the gospel, no pun intended

100% with you on that. He's a New Labour apparatchik idiot too which explains much!

 

[frogwoman]

100% with you on that. He's a New Labour apparatchik idiot too which explains much!

Oh dear!

 

[frogwoman]

100% with you on that. He's a New Labour apparatchik idiot too which explains much!

New Labour are hardly known for their love of Palestinians

 

[quiquaquo]

New Labour are hardly known for their love of Palestinians

There you go. Frankly I suspected far worse of the person, intelligence services but which I have no idea. Computer giving me trouble so am keeping it short.

 

[treelover]

Family of 28 killed, I'm afraid whole generations being massacred has very strong historical connotations.

 

[laptop]

What do you and VP think of this lot, I have a dodgy relative by marriage in it: http://jfjfp.com/

Have J4J4P yet come to grips as an organisation with the issue that Palestinians refer to as "normalisation"?

When I've met them there was a penumbra of well-meaning middle-class types who, for want of hard thinking, thought cross-community arts projects were the answer...

 

[DrRingDing]

Shall I go to a meeting and give it a go then?

Leave the liberals and grannies to it. I'd say go join London Palestine Action. They'll be a lot better in all respects.

 

[DrRingDing]

https://www.facebook.com/londonpalestineaction

 

[DrRingDing]

One more war crime...
http://palsolidarity.org/2014/07/video-of-israeli-sniper-killing-wounded-civilian/

 

[frogwoman]

My Zionist cousin just cropped up on fb asking why I have not spoken out about crimes committed by Israel's neighbours. I sent him I link to my blog criticizing all sorts of countries (although not yet Israel). He hasn't responded