Gaza under attack yet again.

[ViolentPanda]

The Jews think they are the chosen people? Their history going back thousands of years has been that they have been hated as outsiders and every so often there has been an initiative to kill every single one. Can see why the Palestinians would bear the brunt of this!

Religious Jews may believe that they're Chosen, but religion has fuck-all to do with what is happening in Israel/Palestine. That is all about power over finite land and resources, and justifying (which is where religion can come in) doing so.
Interestingly, in the history of a modern (i.e. the last 200 years or so) Jewish settlement in Palestine, the majority of Jews who did emigrate to Palestine were secular - in the period between the 1890s and WW2, many of them were socialist, so justification via historic oppression isn't particularly valid, and while those who emigrated into Israel post-Shoah have a justification for seeking a "safe harbour", there's still no justification for stealing Palestinian land, not when even the founders of Zionism saw a Jewish homeland not in terms of "the Holy Land", but merely in terms of a defendable Jewish enclave anywhere.
In fact, the current state of Israel has no religious justification, except some post-foundation Rabbinical scribbling. Jewish scripture is clear about not returning until the time is right - most scholars do not believe that the time is right, or will be, until politics is superceded by faith.

 

[frogwoman]

Unfortunately, it was descending into fascism since before the state of Israel was born.

I am not sure whether it has ever met the technical definition of a fascist state though (but maybe it has?) either way, it is increasingly resembling that definition

 

[ViolentPanda]

The Jews are special and peculiar. Why Palestine and not Greenland?

Read some 20th century history, specifically about the Mandate of Palestine and the Balfour Declaration. Britain made a rod for the back of the Palestinians, and all else followed.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I am not sure whether it has ever met the technical definition of a fascist state though (but maybe it has?) either way, it is increasingly resembling that definition

No, but many of the founders were Jabotinskyites, and even those who defined themselves as socialists still supported the exclusivity of Jewish nationality. That sort of "backbone" to your national politics will always leave traces, and in an ongoing conflict where politics can't evolve beyond the "core" principles of the state, that "backbone" has become more prevalent.

 

[frogwoman]

The 'hilltop youth' and protesters in tel aviv against immigrants etc increasingly resemble a neo-nazi mob.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Are you sure? They believe God gave them this land. Not just a right to live somewhere on earth in peace, but this land.

The majority of Jews are not Observant Judaists, neither do they believe that a G-d mandated their dominion over that land.
Some nationalist-Zionists see "Israel" as the boundaries of the kingdoms of Judaea and Samaria, but they do so not for religious purposes, but to excuse/justify the invasion of those parts of what were Judaea and Samaria that are now within the boundaries of neighbouring states (hence Sinai and Golan).
Don't mistake political justification for religious belief. The two rarely intersect.

 

[Awesome Wells]

Netanyahu doesn't believe this.

I doubt that.

 

[Awesome Wells]

Even if Hamas are hijacking ambulances it still doesn't excuse Israel's utterly batshit level of response. Blowing up hospitals? Bombing densely packed civilian areas? That's like trying to keep my house clean by feeding my family Cilit Bang!

 

[Awesome Wells]

There;s a demo in Bristol tomorrow, according to Stop The War coalition.

 

[Doctor Carrot]

There;s a demo in Bristol tomorrow, according to Stop The War coalition.

You got a link for this please? I can't see it on their website.

 

[weepiper]

Demo in Glasgow tomorrow too.
https://www.facebook.com/events/320844234749554/?fref=ts

 

[weltweit]

What's to understand?
This isn't about right or wrong for people like Netanyahu, it's about establishing dominion over supposedly "historically-Jewish" land. Now, for some of the Zionists, that's for historico-religious reasons, but for the majority of them, it's about an Israeli nationalism that says "no-one but Jews may live in this land". It's the other side of the coin to the Nazi plans to erase some "races", and turn others into modern-day helots (only we're not supposed to use comparisons to Nazism, because that's allegedly anti-Semitic).
The state of Israel also knows that it will always ghave cases of "provocation" by which to excuse its murderous tactics, because subject races always resist, even if that resistance is meaningless to anyone but the resisters.

When I said I didn't understand it, I know what is going on.

What I don't understand is how Israel can continue to be so inhumane racist bloodthirsty and cruel.

That they know they will get away with it is one aspect, but killing children destroying hospitals. In 100 years time when they have expelled all Palestinians from Gaza and the West Bank they will be denying any of this ever happened, the other people, what other people?

 

[moon]

nothing..

 

[Geri]

You got a link for this please? I can't see it on their website.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...63769345.92713.100002021750193&type=1&theater

 

[weepiper]

 

[Awesome Wells]

When I said I didn't understand it, I know what is going on.

What I don't understand is how Israel can continue to be so inhumane racist bloodthirsty and cruel.

That they know they will get away with it is one aspect, but killing children destroying hospitals. In 100 years time when they have expelled all Palestinians from Gaza and the West Bank they will be denying any of this ever happened, the other people, what other people?

They continue it because they can get away with it and in fact are enabled.

 

[quiquaquo]

When I said I didn't understand it, I know what is going on.

What I don't understand is how Israel can continue to be so inhumane racist bloodthirsty and cruel.

That they know they will get away with it is one aspect, but killing children destroying hospitals. In 100 years time when they have expelled all Palestinians from Gaza and the West Bank they will be denying any of this ever happened, the other people, what other people?

Continue with these atrocities and Israel will certainly no longer exist in 100 years time. Time is not on its side.

 

[stowpirate]

Read some 20th century history, specifically about the Mandate of Palestine and the Balfour Declaration. Britain made a rod for the back of the Palestinians, and all else followed.

Anti semitism in europe before WW2 and the mass influx of Jews is always ignored in this debate. Germany, Britain and to some degree France are responsible for the current situation. History would suggest the real target for Palestinian anger should be Germany, Britain, France and US - in that order?

 

[teqniq]

sorry for the Mail link

Outrage as France become first country in world to ban pro-Palestine demos

France's Socialist government provoked outrage today by becoming the first in the world to ban protests against Israeli action in Palestine.

In what is viewed as an outrageous attack on democracy, Socialist Interior Minister Bernard Cazeneuve said mass demonstrations planned for the weekend should be halted.

Mr Cazeneuve said there was a ‘threat to public order’, while opponents said he was ‘criminalising’ popular support of the Palestinian people.

But Mr Cazeneuve fears there might be a repeat of the fights between ‘ultra’ Jewish vigilantes and pro-Palestinians which happened after a demonstration last Sunday.

Referring to the main Paris march, Mr Cazeneuve said: ‘I consider that the conditions are not right to guarantee security.’

Socialist Interior Minister Bernard Cazeneuve fears there might be a repeat of the fights between Jewish vigilantes and pro-Palestinians which happened after a demonstration last Sunday

Socialist Interior Minister Bernard Cazeneuve fears there might be a repeat of the fights between Jewish vigilantes and pro-Palestinians which happened after a demonstration last Sunday

He welcomed a legal procedure instigated by the Paris police prefecture to ban the march, despite it already being widely advertised.

Anyone who turns up to an illegal demonstration now faces up to a year in prison, and a 15,000 euro fine.

If they hide their faces to avoid being identified, this sentence can be increased to three years, and a 45,000 fine.

Even those who publish details of an illegal rally on social media face up to a year in prison, and a 15,000 euro fine.

This can be increased to seven years and a 100,000 fine if the postings lead to violence

Mr Cazeneuve also advised other prefects across France to examine planned marches on a ‘case by case’ basis, and to ban ‘if appropriate’.

But Michele Sibony, of the Jewish Union for Peace, said: ‘By outlawing free speech by pro-Palestinian demonstrators, France puts itself in a unique position in the world and Europe.’

And Youssef Boussoumah, of the Party of the Indigenous of the Republic (PIR) said: ‘France is criminalising any show of solidarity with the Palestinian people....

 

[agricola]

Continue with these atrocities and Israel will certainly no longer exist in 100 years time. Time is not on its side.

TBF the danger to Israel isnt in continual atrocities like this (lets face it history has ample evidence that states can spend centuries doing that type of thing); its more in the ongoing poverty of political decision making at the highest level, which repeatedly has made the call to invade Gaza / southern Lebanon (delete as appropriate) in response to some percieved crisis and repeatedly achieved nothing.

 

[Pickman's model]

Anti semitism in europe before WW2 and the mass influx of Jews is always ignored in this debate. Germany, Britain and to some degree France are responsible for the current situation. History would suggest the real target for Palestinian anger should be Germany, Britain, France and US - in that order?

while that might be all well and good for people in elevated academic discussions i don't think that there's currently much appetite in gaza or the west bank - or among the wider palestinian diaspora - for a debate on the merits of this point at the moment. pointing out the responsibility of western governments for the situation in the middle east is, in any event, hardly pointing out a hidden history for the denizens of that region.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

The leader of Hamas’ political bureau, Khaled Meshaal, has reiterated in an exclusive interview with Al-Monitor that his movement will not agree to a cease-fire that does not result in the lifting of the siege on Gaza.

Read more: http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/ori...eader-interview-gaza-2014.html##ixzz37q4oTplD

 

[Mr.Bishie]

@Palestinianism
80% - 90% of #Gaza now has no power. #Israel hit and cut most primary lines.

 

[Knotted]

Are you sure? They believe God gave them this land. Not just a right to live somewhere on earth in peace, but this land.

The original Zionists were for the most part secular. Both the Labour and the Revisionist wings. They were trying to renew the Jews as a nation rather than a ghettoised sect. They were often quite hostile to Judaism. Granted some think the above, though.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Anti semitism in europe before WW2 and the mass influx of Jews is always ignored in this debate. Germany, Britain and to some degree France are responsible for the current situation. History would suggest the real target for Palestinian anger should be Germany, Britain, France and US - in that order?

Germany, Britain and France, you say?
You're missing out the biggest culprit by far, for about 200 years prior to WW2 - the Russian empire and it's Soviet Union bastard child under Stalin.
Germany was one of the first polities to give Jews full citizenship rights, a full generation before France did. German anti-Semitism existed, but it was equivalent to the sort of prejudice Catholics in England experienced in the nineteenth century, and blacks and Asians in Britain experienced in the latter half of the 20th century. If Hitler hadn't come down on the Jews, the political milieu from which he drew many of the ideas that became Nazism had another that would have served as aptly - Slavs. Choosing the Jews was a concatenation of personal prejudice (his own experiences in Vienna), a firm anti-Semitic Catholic conservatism from whence he could draw support, and the bald economic fact that expropriating Jews would give the Reich a lot more had currency than expropriating Slavs in German territory.

Your "real target" should be Russia. Their murderous oppression and repression of Jews led to the Ashkenazy (eastern European and Eurasian Jews) diaspora into western Europe, which had mostly previously been lightly settled by Sephardim (Mediterranean Jews). Without over 2 centuries of being corralled into "the Pale", there to be attacked by any citizen of the Russian empire who took a fancy to do so, the conditions wouldn't have been ripe in Germany for Jews to be victimised in the 1930s. As for the US, their main contribution to the Holocaust was the Versailles treaty's impositions on the German economy, which alienated the majority of Germans from the idea of democratic government.

 

[stowpirate]

while that might be all well and good for people in elevated academic discussions i don't think that there's currently much appetite in gaza or the west bank - or among the wider palestinian diaspora - for a debate on the merits of this point at the moment. pointing out the responsibility of western governments for the situation in the middle east is, in any event, hardly pointing out a hidden history for the denizens of that region.

Don't think it is really a hidden history. Britain and especially France have been able to distance themselves from any blame? You are right in that the current situation will ignore our guilt in this?

 

[Mr.Bishie]

@petersbeaumont 5h
I've seen some truly shocking scenes this morning. A man putting the remains of his two year old son into a shopping bag.

 

[ViolentPanda]

When I said I didn't understand it, I know what is going on.

What I don't understand is how Israel can continue to be so inhumane racist bloodthirsty and cruel.

It's called realpolitik. It's what's left hen you strip away all the justification and cant, and are left only with the reasons why people have acted. In Israel's case this is the establishment of what they believe to be the security of their nation-state, regardless of the cost to tohers.

That they know they will get away with it is one aspect, but killing children destroying hospitals. In 100 years time when they have expelled all Palestinians from Gaza and the West Bank they will be denying any of this ever happened, the other people, what other people?

You're missing part of the point, which is nothing to do with active expulsion: It's the use of terror to force emigration.
You see, emigration is someone choosing to leave, passive "expulsion", something for which Israel can avoid accountability, whereas active expulsion would mean taking an active hand in shifting populations from their land. The difference between "active" and "passive" action is small, but scaring people away means incurring less shit from other nation-states.

 

[stowpirate]

Germany, Britain and France, you say?
You're missing out the biggest culprit by far, for about 200 years prior to WW2 - the Russian empire and it's Soviet Union bastard child under Stalin.
Germany was one of the first polities to give Jews full citizenship rights, a full generation before France did. German anti-Semitism existed, but it was equivalent to the sort of prejudice Catholics in England experienced in the nineteenth century, and blacks and Asians in Britain experienced in the latter half of the 20th century. If Hitler hadn't come down on the Jews, the political milieu from which he drew many of the ideas that became Nazism had another that would have served as aptly - Slavs. Choosing the Jews was a concatenation of personal prejudice (his own experiences in Vienna), a firm anti-Semitic Catholic conservatism from whence he could draw support, and the bald economic fact that expropriating Jews would give the Reich a lot more had currency than expropriating Slavs in German territory.

Your "real target" should be Russia. Their murderous oppression and repression of Jews led to the Ashkenazy (eastern European and Eurasian Jews) diaspora into western Europe, which had mostly previously been lightly settled by Sephardim (Mediterranean Jews). Without over 2 centuries of being corralled into "the Pale", there to be attacked by any citizen of the Russian empire who took a fancy to do so, the conditions wouldn't have been ripe in Germany for Jews to be victimised in the 1930s. As for the US, their main contribution to the Holocaust was the Versailles treaty's impositions on the German economy, which alienated the majority of Germans from the idea of democratic government.

Yes Russia and a few other nations, even the US was involved. However we was in charge at the time? Then France armed Israel including the ability to make atomic bombs and then found themselves becoming a target and had a change of heart. The US then filled the void. I know simplified version of history but more or less sums up the timeline?

 

[weltweit]

Continue with these atrocities and Israel will certainly no longer exist in 100 years time. Time is not on its side.

I don't see any reason to believe that.
A nuclear armed state with the most powerful military .. who will do what to stop them?