Gaza under attack yet again.

[Limerick Red]

As well as venting our disgust on here, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine has being clear in what it asks and expects those sympathetic around the world to do, and thats up the pressure, take to the streets, occupy and protest the Israeli embassies, increase the pressure for BDS. The Palestinian people like always will not fail to resist, but any intermediate victory will come from western pressure on Israel that can only come from the people of the west upping the pressure on their own governments.
This cant be allowed to drop from the everyones mind in a week or two weeks time! ....

Which it undoubtably will.

 

[IC3D]

I don't buy this talk of the Zionist entity crap. Its the democratic elected government of Israel. Its the national army that all Israelis have served in. I've seen precious little show of Jewish opposition to the actions in Gaza. I have maybe 20 odd Jewish friends on FB non of whom wish to stick their neck out. In fact I understand why, that's what's so bleak frankly. The term Zionist is thrown so wildly about it is devoid of meaning. Its war between Palestinians and Israelis and their representatives.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

good to see that the shelling is only targeted at Hamas Militants. I camn imagine It would be carnage of they started lobbing shells into a packed city with no escape route for its 1.5 million residents.

Oh, hang on a minute...

1.8 million residents a week ago.

 

[frogwoman]

Shouldn't have to justify saying not all Jews support Israel. It's getting fewer by the day. No thanks to antisemites who equate the two and in effect as a IDF recruiting sergeant. I don't want to get into this now though, not the thread

 

[frogwoman]

I don't buy this talk of the Zionist entity crap. Its the democratic elected government of Israel. Its the national army that all Israelis have served in. I've seen precious little show of Jewish opposition to the actions in Gaza. I have maybe 20 odd Jewish friends on FB non of whom wish to stick their neck out. In fact I understand why, that's what's so bleak frankly. The term Zionist is thrown so wildly about it is devoid of meaning. Its war between Palestinians and Israelis and their representatives.

Yep.

 

[Limerick Red]

Its war between Palestinians and Israelis and their representatives.

There we go folks, the voice of reason.

 

[Doctor Carrot]

Why do Israel's actions not count as war crimes?

The thing is they do count as crimes, very much so. Have a look at the Goldstone report compiled by the UN in the wake of Israel's previous massacre. It's condemns Israel strongly on a whole host of actions. It said the attack on Gaza was designed to:

Humiliate and terrorize a civilian population, radically diminish its local economic capacity both to work and to provide for itself, and to force upon it an ever increasing sense of dependency and vulnerability

Those are crimes. The attack now is a crime and has exactly the same aims in mind. Israel's occupation is a crime, it's blockade is a crime, it's separation wall is a crime and so on. It's just the laws aren't enforced, not for western powers and it's allies anyway.

 

[Doctor Carrot]

I don't buy this talk of the Zionist entity crap. Its the democratic elected government of Israel. Its the national army that all Israelis have served in. I've seen precious little show of Jewish opposition to the actions in Gaza. I have maybe 20 odd Jewish friends on FB non of whom wish to stick their neck out. In fact I understand why, that's what's so bleak frankly. The term Zionist is thrown so wildly about it is devoid of meaning. Its war between Palestinians and Israelis and their representatives.

I don't even see how you can call it a war. A war tends to have two forces allied against each other. This is just one force crushing an ant hill. I do, however, take your point about the wider context if that's what you're getting at when you mention their representatives.

 

[frogwoman]

The thing is they do count as crimes, very much so. Have a look at the Goldstone report compiled by the UN in the wake of Israel's previous massacre. It's condemns Israel strongly on a whole host of actions. It said the attack on Gaza was designed to:



Those are crimes. The attack now is a crime and has exactly the same aims in mind. Israel's occupation is a crime, it's blockade is a crime, it's separation wall is a crime and so on. It's just the laws aren't enforced, not for western powers and it's allies anyway.

I've thought for years that there are strong parallels with, for example Israel and Slobodan Milosevic's Serbia, on an ideological level mainly and how religion and a cult of victomhood is used to justify these massacres, but also with a hell of a lot of the shit they've done.

 

[weepiper]

I would really lie to find some Jewish people, outside of Israel, opposed to this madness by Israels Govt, but, other than Froggy on here, I cant find them.
Suzy managed to find one vid of a guy in Canada
Otherwise its seems a universal supt
This cant be right, surely>

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/corey-levine/israel-palestine-conflict_b_5593561.html?utm_hp_ref=tw

 

[hipipol]

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/corey-levine/israel-palestine-conflict_b_5593561.html?utm_hp_ref=tw

i
the pages should be screaming with them
even sadder than I thought

 

[smmudge]

I would really lie to find some Jewish people, outside of Israel, opposed to this madness by Israels Govt, but, other than Froggy on here, I cant find them.
Suzy managed to find one vid of a guy in Canada
Otherwise its seems a universal supt
This cant be right, surely>

http://jfjfp.com/

http://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/

http://jews4big.wordpress.com/

 

[not-bono-ever]

a 5 month old baby has been killed ( BBC). for fucks sake.I cant imagine how it must feel to be trapped in soemwhere like Gaza,utterly helpless and unable to do anything to protect your family.

cunts.

 

[Doctor Carrot]

I would really lie to find some Jewish people, outside of Israel, opposed to this madness by Israels Govt, but, other than Froggy on here, I cant find them.
Suzy managed to find one vid of a guy in Canada
Otherwise its seems a universal supt
This cant be right, surely>

Yeah there's loads. Anecdotal I know but my ex is Jewish and she utterly deplored Israel's actions. She's not religious but she was raised as a Satmar Jew and, according to her, they're pretty strongly anti Israel although a small number of Satmars do live in Israel but they're mostly in America. There is in fact a fair number of protests against Israeli policy by orthodox Jews in Israel itself. I wouldn't be surprised if Satmars participate in them a lot.

 

[Doctor Carrot]

 

[shygirl]

is there something about eton that makes it turn out so many stupid people?[/QUOTE

Prime minister's belief in Israel 'unbreakable'
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26526096
There may be hope of some sense
He used to say that about Toad, er sorry, Gove

I would really lie to find some Jewish people, outside of Israel, opposed to this madness by Israels Govt, but, other than Froggy on here, I cant find them.
Suzy managed to find one vid of a guy in Canada
Otherwise its seems a universal supt
This cant be right, surely>

There are loads of Jews opposed to Israel's actions and/or Zionism, many will be on the march on Saturday.

 

[frogwoman]

There are loads of Jews opposed to Israel's actions and/or Zionism, many will be on the march on Saturday.

If they wanted to have more support from religious Jews, as saturday is shabbat, they should have the march on Sunday...I won't be going because some of the stuff I have seen on these marches utterly depresses.me but fair play to anyone who is

 

[PursuedByBears]

There are loads of Jews opposed to Israel's actions and/or Zionism, many will be on the march on Saturday.

Of course there are, quite surprised that someone had to ask for evidence for this. People not a mono-thought clique shocker!

 

[PursuedByBears]

If they wanted to have more support from religious Jews, as saturday is shabbat, they should have the march on Sunday...I won't be going because some of the stuff I have seen on these marches utterly depresses.me but fair play to anyone who is

Could you please expand on what you've seen on the marches? Do you mean conflation of being jewish with being zionist by swappie types?

 

[Doctor Carrot]

There's increasing numbers of tweets reporting the use of gas and people showing signs of asphyxiation on twitter but there's no reliable source for this at the moment. Has anyone else seen this? I'm hoping it's just bullshit, I like to think it's bullshit and not think the IDF would be insane enough to do this but I wouldn't put anything past them.

 

[frogwoman]

I've thought for years that there are strong parallels with, for example Israel and Slobodan Milosevic's Serbia, on an ideological level mainly and how religion and a cult of victomhood is used to justify these massacres, but also with a hell of a lot of the shit they've done.

Also some of the 'colonialist/white supremacism' stuff on Israel I have seen on Twitter misses this point a bit, this is an ideology that tries to position the Israeli state as a 'defender' of 'the west'/'western values'/'democracy' etc, much like the Serbs (in nationalist mythology) and also the Croats were positioned as 'defenders of Christian Europe' against Muslims, etc. But at the same time there's a cult of victimhood and 'nobody likes us we don't care' sort of mentality which justifies the atrocities because 'the world hates us and doesn't understand'. Saying its a purely white supremacism thing underestimates the weird mix of martyrdom and saying 'fuck you' to 'the world' that's going on here IMO

 

[hipipol]

Yeah there's loads. Anecdotal I know but my ex is Jewish and she utterly deplored Israel's actions. She's not religious but she was raised as a Satmar Jew and, according to her, they're pretty strongly anti Israel although a small number of Satmars do live in Israel but they're mostly in America. There is in fact a fair number of protests against Israeli policy by orthodox Jews in Israel itself. I wouldn't be surprised if Satmars participate in them a lot.

When I lived, many moons back I admit, in Stamford Hill, all my neighbours were Hasdidim, and they were almost all opposed to Isreal on a religious basis, but on individual one were more forthcoming
Even the Lubavitches, as far as I know, aint big on the cyber propaganda level I have yet to see them saying how wrong this is
Yet I know from those that would speak to on the bus, in the hall, even to the lovely man who brought his nervous wife over - I got the cakes from Grodzinkies - my fav bakery ever by the way!!!!! - made sure she saw the bag everything came from - spotted her checking the kitchen - had to tell her I was vegetarian, which was 99% true at the time....they are trapped by religion but inside that really good people who would never lify a hamd to hurt someone unless it was on a religious basis - but I wouldn't ever question them on that - not my place really
I ant see any of them supporting the killing of children

 

[quiquaquo]

As a Palestinian said on the TV today: Resist until they kill us or until we live in freedom, there is no other way.

Israel is finished.

 

[frogwoman]

Could you please expand on what you've seen on the marches? Do you mean conflation of being jewish with being zionist by swappie types?

Gone over it endlessly on previous threads. This thread not the place for it.

 

[hipipol]

Also some of the 'colonialist/white supremacism' stuff on Israel I have seen on Twitter misses this point a bit, this is an ideology that tries to position the Israeli state as a 'defender' of 'the west'/'western values'/'democracy' etc, much like the Serbs (in nationalist mythology) and also the Croats were positioned as 'defenders of Christian Europe' against Muslims, etc. But at the same time there's a cult of victimhood and 'nobody likes us we don't care' sort of mentality which justifies the atrocities because 'the world hates us and doesn't understand'. Saying its a purely white supremacism thing underestimates the weird mix of martyrdom and saying 'fuck you' to 'the world' that's going on here IMO

I can see what your on about, but what missing in that analysis is anything remotely like empathy
This entirely self referential and militaristic way of life can only, and always, bring conflict with the neighbours

 

[PursuedByBears]

OK, sorry.

 

[hipipol]

As a Palestinian said on the TV today: Resist until they kill us or until we live in freedom, there is no other way.

Israel is finished.

no it isnt
Where would all those people go?
It needs to change approach
tho to be fair, that will be well hard

 

[frogwoman]

I can see what your on about, but what missing in that analysis is anything remotely like empathy
This entirely self referential and militaristic way of life can only, and always, bring conflict with the neighbours

I'm trying to analyze it dispassionately, if it comes across like I'm not being empathetic enough then I am sorry, trying to stay as emotionally disconnected from it as I can.

 

[quiquaquo]

no it isnt
Where would all those people go?
It needs to change approach
tho to be fair, that will be well hard

Where would they go? Nowhere: Palestine.

hth

 

[Doctor Carrot]

18000 soldiers are being called up over night according to the BBC!

The Israeli cabinet have apparently wanted a ground invasion from the beginning. Did I mention the Israeli government is fucking insane?