Fukushima Daiichi nuclear disaster

[Barking_Mad]

the best live update along with interactive Q&A is on the Reuters site: http://live.reuters.com/Event/Japan_earthquake2

lots of good info to be found and where most of my links come from....

 

[ferrelhadley]

lots of good info to be found and where most of my links come from....

Physics forum is where I have been following this mostly.

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=480200&page=31

 

[elbows]

Latest.

http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/03/79511.html

Tokyo Electric Power Co. on Saturday accelerated efforts to restore lost cooling functions at reactors at the troubled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant, aiming to reconnect electricity through outside power lines.

Reconnection of the No. 2 reactor is expected to be completed during the day. However, it will still take time to reactivate devices to cool down the reactors and overheating spent fuel pools once electricity is restored as equipment needs to be checked, according to TEPCO, the operator of the crippled plant.

Earlier Saturday, the Tokyo Fire Department joined the operation to cool down the No. 3 reactor by discharging 90 tons of water.

The mission by the department's elite ''hyper rescue team'' follows that of the Self-Defense Forces, who have been spraying tons of waters over the No. 3 reactor building since Thursday.

Meanwhile, a helicopter of the Ground Self-Defense Force flew over the troubled Daiichi plant Saturday morning to check the changes in temperatures at its reactors using thermography, the Defense Ministry said.

The CH47 chopper also examined what effects the water sprayed on the reactor has had in cooling the spent fuel pool, it said.

 

[southside]

I've spent a lot of time looking at this and looking at Chernobyl to understand how the authorities dealt with that disaster and the truth is sadly they can't. 25 years on and the place Will remain radio active and deadly for thousands of years, I've looked into the half life of the radio active isotopes and elements that are being emitted and discovered that uranium has a half life of 4.468 billion years the other more common elements have half lives between 8 days and 30 years.

I looked at the plans for a massive arched dome that has been proposed to entomb Chernobyl and I think that the same will have to happen in Fukushima.

I felt for The director of Tepco Akio Aomori who was shown on the television crying after attending a press conference announcing that they have failed to contain the disaster and its going to cause deaths.

I find it annoying that the Brit media hasn't really reported on this but maybe they're right not to do so. Its obvious that this disaster has overshadowed the earth quake and tsunami and to be honest I've over exposed myself to it all but that stuff is probably better for me to post in the other thread. Can the world move away from nuclear power? as we'll always be at the mercy to some unforeseen scenario of a disaster no matter what kinds of fault tolerance and redundancy get built in. I understand that the next gen nuke reactors are a lot more advanced but can they be guaranteed to be 100% safe?

 

[Corax]

uranium has a half life of 4.468 billion years the other more common elements have half lives between 8 days and 30 years.

There's lots of radioactive shit around. If it can be contained, then the half-life doesn't really matter, unless someone breaks that containment.

I'm sorry because I'm sure you don't intend your post this way, but it reads to me like scaremongering, or overindulging in worst case scenarios.

 

[southside]

There's lots of radioactive shit around. If it can be contained, then the half-life doesn't really matter, unless someone breaks that containment.

I'm sorry because I'm sure you don't intend your post this way, but it reads to me like scaremongering, or overindulging in worst case scenarios.

No I'm honestly not trying to upset anything or scare people, I think we've had enough of that already.

This shit is serious and governments will tell people all kinds of bollocks and so will the media, I'm no expert but the window to deal with this is rapidly closing. France rate this as a 6 while Japan have given it a 5, they have admited they were wrong to play it down. The problem with the spent pools at the moment is the fact that the water in the containment pools boiled dry, the problem with this is if the outer cladding melts and the pellets that are inside become exposed (don't forget the clowns didnt put the initial fire out properly only for it to flare up again the next day), what damage did that cause to the rods? the chance of getting people in would become almost if not impossible. I don't think anyone is giving the full story as they don't want to spread panic but I don't trust fucking about with nuke shit and I don't trust questionable goverment spin murchants or companys with iffy safety check histories.

 

[elbows]

I felt for The director of Tepco Akio Aomori who was shown on the television crying after attending a press conference announcing that they have failed to contain the disaster and its going to cause deaths.

I've overwhelmed myself with non-uk media sources of info on this stuff recently, so not been paying much attention to uk media, but for a start the Mail (ugh) appears to have picked up on the crying:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...radiation-leak-kill-people.html#ixzz1GyXQhfmE

 

[elbows]

No I'm honestly not trying to upset anything or scare people, I think we've had enough of that already.

(don't forget the clowns didnt put the initial fire out properly only for it to flare up again the next day), what damage did that cause to the rods? the chance of getting people in would become almost if not impossible. I don't think anyone is giving the full story as they don't want to spread panic but I don't trust fucking about with nuke shit and I don't trust questionable goverment spin murchants or companys with iffy safety check histories.

Thats mostly why I've paid such close attention to the details. Their capacity to spin and cover-up became rather more limited when things started blowing up, especially as several of the explosions were caught on camera. The company did have a go though early on, trying to suggest that the building damage at one unit (that was actually an explosion) happened at the same time as an earthquake at the site.

Im not sure what is yet to be revealed about what has already happened, or what will happen in the days ahead, but certainly we got to hear of quite a lot of detail, more than I might of expected. Certain things have often been played down but at other times some possibilities have actually been played up a bit, so I'll just have to wait and see how much data has been covered up to date, as opposed to them just not really knowing the detail themselves. I would expect that a few things have been learnt in the last day or so that we might not know about yet, in terms of the situation at some of the problem locations at the plant.

Anyway because its too early to judge quite how much has been covered up by governments or the company, most of my anger at spin and outright lies during this disaster has been directed towards some of the 'experts' that have been on the telly or the internet. There are less pro-nuclear people on the net now who are still pretending that nothing major is happening than there were up to a day or so ago, but can still find a few who are fundamentalists and now seem utterly bonkers given the known facts.

 

[story]

I have little knowledge about any of this, been on a pretty steep learning curve over the last few days.

This broadcast on the World Service last night gave me some context and clarity

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00f9y2m

 

[Barking_Mad]

Reuters reporting

Traces of radioactive iodine found in tap water in Tokyo, other areas: gov't

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

Reuters reporting

Milk and spinach near the plant also contaminated

 

[elbows]

News from the plant that I have seen today on news or seen in official information releases:

They have made 3 holes in the roof of reactor 5 building, and same for reactor 6, to prevent hydrogen buildup.

They got some kind of pumping system working at unit 5 and the temp of the spent fuel pool there has started to slowly decrease.

The radiation levels at one of the site boundary monitoring posts reached a level that required reporting at 8.58AM JST today. (presently assume this meant a level went over 500 microSv/hour at boundary). I am still looking at raw data available for today so far, to see if there is a story here.

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

Not wanting to add a down note to to an otherwise grim scenario, but FFS ( sorry for link to Sun )

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...i-Tokyo-City-of-Ghosts.html?OTC-RSS&ATTR=News

"She said: "The first to flee Tokyo have been British Embassy staff. I repeatedly rang the Tokyo number for our embassy - but there's just a recorded message saying, 'We are not taking calls'.

"So I phoned the embassy in Osaka and got the same message.

"I then rang the Foreign Office and got patched through to a crisis line man, who just told me to try and get on a plane.

"I kept telling him we can't even get to the airport but he didn't seem concerned.

"I was shaking. I feel like they're just leaving us here to fry.

"I don't want my children to get cancer. The Japanese news tells us radiation in Tokyo isn't at harmful levels. But why would they tell us to wear masks otherwise?

"I begged the Foreign Office man, 'Please help me'. But he told me if I raised my voice one more time he was terminating the call.

"In desperation, I rang the US embassy and immediately a human voice asked, 'How can I help?' They can't do much as I'm British. But the contrast was staggering.

"If I get out of Tokyo I want to go to America, Australia, anywhere. I have no faith in Britain any more. I don't want to see my country ever again."

Search for that girl's name in the Sun article. She's getting slated all over the place

 

[elbows]

OK so regarding these iodine and cesium tap water stories:

http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/03/79673.html

The ministry said 77 becquerels of iodine was found per kilogram of water in Tochigi, 2.5 becquerels in Gunma, 0.62 becquerels in Saitama, 0.79 becquerels in Chiba, 1.5 becquerels in Tokyo and 0.27 becquerels in Niigata.

The amount of cesium per kilogram of water was 1.6 becquerels in Tochigi and 0.22 in Gunma, it added.

In Maebashi, Gunma, 2.5 becquerels of iodine and 0.38 becquerel of cesium were detected Friday per kilogram of water, the prefectural government said, adding it is the first time that the substances have been detected since it began testing tap water for radioactive materials in 1990.

The Nuclear Safety Commission of Japan limits intake of iodine at 300 becquerels per kilogram of water and of cesium at 200 becquerels.

Im still learning about these numbers. Will try to do a broader comparison later, but for now:

689 Bq/kg found in evaporated milk from Galloway, May 11 1986. Also in Scotland, 23330 Bq/kg found in free range hen in June, 4218 Bq/kg found in mutton in July.

 

[elbows]

More current data on the contamination of stuff:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704021504576209854015156320.html

In raw milk samples collected from a farm in the town of Kawamata in Fukushima prefecture, up to 1,510 becquerel per kilogram of iodine-131 were detected, about five times the limit of 300 becquerel per kilogram set by law.

One spinach sample collected from the city of Hitachinaka, located about 120 kilometers south of the plant, contained 8,420 becquerel per kilogram of iodine-131, according to the health ministry. The normal amount set by Japanese law is 2,000 becquerel per kilogram.

Another spinach sample from Takahagi, a city closer to Fukushima, recorded 15,020 becquerel per kilogram, more than seven times the normal amount. From that sample, radioactive caesium 134 and caesium 137 were also detected in slightly larger amounts than the limits set by law.

 

[elbows]

IAEA made another mistake with information, at least the 3rd mistake they have made so far.

1620: The IAEA has issued a correction to its earlier statement that Japan had banned food originating from Fukushima prefecture because of the risk of radioactive contamination. It now says that the authorities are merely considering a ban.

 

[Corax]

Search for that girl's name in the Sun article. She's getting slated all over the place

Dear The Sun,

I have just read with some concern your article 'Starving Brit Keely: My nightmare trapped in City of Ghosts – Tokyo'. First I wish to respond to your thoughtful question 'Do you know anyone stuck in Japan?'with the simple answer- No, because nobody is stuck in Japan. There are available flights both in and out of the country. Hope that helps.

I can assure you and any of your worried readers that the Tokyo described in the article is not very similar to the Tokyo outside my window. Perhaps Nerima-Ku suffered it's own unique nuclear catastrophe that somehow we have failed to hear about, but I think it's unlikely as it is just a five minute bicycle ride from here, and in the information age news travels fast.

For the most part life in Tokyo is continuing as normal, with minor concessions to the possible electricity shortage such as shops & restaurants not using all of their lights and not using exterior neon signs etc. Trains are running more or less normally, shops & businesses continue to operate, and there are lots of cars, buses, bicycles & people in the street.

Nobody is starving in Tokyo. For the last few days there have been shortages of bread & rice in the shops, but in my local supermarket there are lots of fresh fruit & vegetables, pasta, soup, cheese etc etc. Nobody even needs to be hungry, let alone starve. Having said that, I haven't been able to find any Twixes, my personal favourite chocolate bar, although sadly that situation has remained the same for much of the last decade.
...

As clearly explained by Sir John Beddington the UK's chief scientific advisor, even in a worst case scenario there is unequivocally no threat from radiation to people living in Tokyo. I believe that The Sun and other newspaper's use of photographs showing Japanese people wearing masks, could be misleading to people living in Britain who may not realise that Japanese people very often wear masks both as a measure against hay fever & as a (perhaps misguided) precaution against colds and influenza as well as a courtesy to others when they are suffering from a cold. It would be rare to not see lots of Japanese people wearing masks on any given day. However, people in Tokyo have not been advised to wear masks and I hope Mrs Fujiyama, will be relieved to hear that she has made a mistake in believing that this was the case. She may also be relieved to hear that radiation levels recorded in Tokyo on wednesday were three times lower than those typically recorded in Rome where again things seems to be running pretty much as normal, although I understand that dodging Vespa scooters can be traumatic.

http://mtokyoblog.blogspot.com/

 

[elbows]

Its really not a good idea to believe that even in a worst case scenario there is no radioactive threat to Tokyo. The devil is in the detail, and as the wind may be blowing stuff in that direction today, and the source of emissions of radioactive stuff has not been dealt with yet, complacency is not wise. Neither is panic though of course.

This video is a reasonable summary of what happened at the plant, with a remarkable combover bonus at around the 2 mins 5 second mark. Apologies if its been posted before.

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

http://mtokyoblog.blogspot.com/

I wonder if she's still stuck there?

 

[elbows]

OK an update. The situation at units 5 and 6 seems to have stabilised considerably in recent days, and they also started talking about the common spent fuel pool in recent days, saying it is fine.

Spraying operations on unit 3, and now probably unit 4 as well, continue, and there is some talk that such measures may need to continue for months!

Pressure of reactor at unit 3 has been rising, leading them to talk of venting it again, but not sure when they are planning to do this or have already done it.

Radiation levels on site at 0.5 and 1km distances from the reactor buildings have generally continued to fall, with the occasional spike here and there. There was a spike this afternoon Japan time, but need later data to really see how significant this was. The higher readings which come from the 0.5km location had fallen as low as 2.5 milliSv/h lunchtime JST, but went back up to 3.3 milliSv/h at 2.50PM JST. For comparison, levels at this point since data from there started being routinely published on the 17th, have usually been in the 3.something milli range, normally falling in a way that resembles exponential decay, but with spikes sending it back up to 4.something or even 5 at some points, eg on the 18th at 5PM JST. To give a 24 hours comparison, at 2.50pm JST on the 19th it had got down to 3.3 millisieverts/hr, which decayed down to 2.5 by 12.50pm today JST, before the aforementioned increase sent it briefly back to 3.3. Overall it is going in the right direction, but we dont get many readings from right next to the reactors so hard to form a full picture.

I dont like the weather forecast and plume prediction models for the days ahead. It looks like wind is likely to be taking stuff inland and there is also rain for many places, especially on Monday. Will have to wait for newer readings from further afield to see if this shows up, certainly expect it to if any significant quantity of stuff is still escaping into the sky, which seems kinda likely.

 

[elbows]

Regarding unit 4 pool:

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/20_31.html

SDF concludes dousing of No.4 reactor
Japan's Self-Defense Force has concluded Sunday's water-spraying operation to cool the storage pool of spent fuel in the Number 4 reactor at the quake-hit Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant.

The operation was carried out in 2 parts, one in the morning and the other in the afternoon.

The second operation ended before 8PM.

The Defense Ministry says more than 100 tons of water has been discharged, and much of it reached inside the reactor building.

This is the first time since the initial quake hit on March 11th that the Number 4 reactor has been doused.

Cooling systems for the spent fuel rod pools at the Number 3 and number 4 reactors have been disabled since the quake, raising concerns over the leakage of radioactive materials.

Earlier, workers sprayed water for more than 13 hours into the Number 3 reactor, which is more seriously damaged.
Sunday, March 20, 2011 20:46 +0900 (JST)

 

[elbows]

Oh and the radiation levels that I keep droning on about continue to be used by the company to suggest that the water spraying operations are working.

TEPCO says radiation levels continue to decline
Tokyo Electric Power Company says radiation levels around the compound at its Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant are on the decline since water-spraying began in earnest on Saturday afternoon.

The company told reporters that the radiation level at the plant's headquarters building, located some 500 meters northeast of the No. 3 reactor, dropped to 2,625 microsieverts per hour at 8:30 on Sunday morning.

The reading shows a drop of more than 800 microsieverts from 18 hours ago--about the time the water-spraying at the No.3 reactor began.
Sunday, March 20, 2011 11:49 +0900 (JST)

Its actually impossible to judge whether the water spraying is helping by looking at these numbers, because pretty much all the numbers from around the site have show a strong tendency to decline most of the time anyway, even in the early days, its just they would suddenly leap back up again when a new bad event occurred. And the leaps back up again in recent days dont make the news, nor have they been dramatic enough to completely undo the downward trend.

Having said that, if they can prevent any new disaster from occurring then it does look like the situation will gradually ease for many points at the site, but like I said before a lack of data from right next to the reactors makes it hard to get too carried away by this trend.

As for releasing pressure at reactor 3 which I mentioned a short time ago, it seems they have decided to put it on hold for now as pressure has somewhat stabilised, and I doubt they want to release more radioactive gasses from the reactor unless they have to, especially with the current weather forecast.

 

[elbows]

Forgot to say that the Japanese government has now started to indicate in public that this particular nuclear plant has no future, and will be shutdown. The detail of how they do this will only become clear once it is established how many of the problems can be brought under control at the site, and to what extent they can reduce the radiation level at certain location at the site.

I havent seen any news stories about it yet but IAEA and official Japanese agency reports indicate that they have also started to infuse water into the number 2 reactors spent fuel pool. We have heard little about this pool, although it could be guessed that the steam which emits from a small hole in one wall of unit 2 is coming from the fuel pool. In any case although detail is sparse, it sounds like water is not being sprayed into this pool in the crude way that is being done for units 2 & 3, and as there are some unclear stories about electric power being back at number 2, they might be using proper equipment to do this. Time will tell.

Temperatures at number 5 and 6 spent fuel pools have been coming down pretty well, don think they are at normal levels yet but are much further away from the presumed danger level than they were a couple of days ago.

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

I think I am probably just going to go on Friday. The lack of any news is probably because things have not changed rather than things getting better but it makes me me feel less uneasy.
I just want to hear some good news.

 

[frogwoman]

They were going to release gases from the reactor but have now deccided against it - anyone know how this works?

 

[elbows]

They were going to release gases from the reactor but have now deccided against it - anyone know how this works?

Its reactor 3, they are considering this because pressure readings from this reactor have been on the rise. But they decided not to do it now, and to keep monitoring the pressure levels for now.

Was there something in particular you wanted to know about this stuff? Venting is not a normal routine event, they previously ended up having to do it on 3 reactors there because of high pressure, but it had 2 large downsides. Firstly some nasty things that normally stay within the reactor were released into the environment. Some of these are short-lived, but the damage to the cores makes it much more likely that some much longer-lasting nasties got out too. Secondly it is presumed that hydrogen was released as part of this process, and this hydrogen caused the explosions we saw visually at 2 of the reactors, and are presumed to have happened in a less obvious way at reactor 2. Mind you, as the unit 4 explosion is presumed to have been caused by hydrogen from the fuel pool, it is also possible that the fuels pools in units 1-3 were responsible for the hydrogen there too, although I havent sen this possibility discussed and the vnting from the reactors is still quite likely to blame at 1-3.

 

[elbows]

I think I am probably just going to go on Friday. The lack of any news is probably because things have not changed rather than things getting better but it makes me me feel less uneasy.
I just want to hear some good news.

Things have got a little bit better at the plant for sure, but this does not provide a solid guide as to whether there will be any further major incidents. I would think this will be a bit clearer before Friday, but some aspects could drag on for ages.

Personally I would reserve judgement for around 48 hours so that we can see whether the weather has had a notable affect on the levels of contamination being detected in the Tokyo area.

 

[MikeMcc]

They were going to release gases from the reactor but have now deccided against it - anyone know how this works?

Sounds like the pressure has stabilised, so they'll want to minimise any venting because it contains radioactive nitrogen (and other compounds from the damaged fuel rods)

 

[mincepie]

Sill no clear real facts on this. While the situation may have calmed down, it's far from over, the people moved from their houses aren't going to be moving back any time soon, clearly it's going to need a lot of water spraying in the intimidate term and long term...who knows.


Seems the 'hero' workers arn't being looked after very well either. Hardly fills you with confidence.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...isis-Fukushima-Fifty-cut-off-from-family.html

 

[Miss Caphat]

Forgot to say that the Japanese government has now started to indicate in public that this particular nuclear plant has no future, and will be shutdown. The detail of how they do this will only become clear once it is established how many of the problems can be brought under control at the site, and to what extent they can reduce the radiation level at certain location at the site.

They didn't even have to say that...one thing I kept hearing even in the beginning (on the news, radio, etc) was that once you introduce sea water into the equation, a plant will not be usable again.