Fukushima Daiichi nuclear disaster

[Barking_Mad]

http://xkcd.com/radiation/

 

[Tankus]

in Finnish:Finnish nuclear autroritory STUK has informed Japanese nuclear authotorities that according their studies conducted 20 yrs ago using sea water for cooling in nuclear plants can be only temporary solution. As sea water boils, the saline liquid will condensate and eventually create salt crystals. If crystallation happens extensively, there will not be way of cooling down the reactors http://www.yle.fi/uutiset/teemat/ja...sesta_uusia_ongelmia_fukushimaan_2450186.html

If it was boiling here would be shed loads of steam (enough to drive generators that is ) So the water must be going though them at very high volumes and velocities , to come out below boiling point , then dumped in the sea , with irradiated salts, caseuim, Iodine , magnesium , phosphate , and all the other family favourites present in seawater , plus dissolved and particulates from the damaged core ..this is going to go on for months ....

hmmm.......... sushi !

 

[elbows]

No clues as to the smoke yet. The stuff at unit 2 was described in more steam-like terms as opposed to smoke. They say the radiation levels at the site have not changed substantially, this remains unclear to me as they changed the location where readings were coming from a little while after the incident, and the readings at the new point did go up quite a bit now and again.

The first data on seawater very close to the plant have now been published, some stuff is much higher than the normal regulatory limits, I shall await more media stories about this stuff before commenting further as my knowledge is limited.

Radiation levels at various locations including Tokyo did go up noticeably for a time today, in line with my expectations about what the weather might bring. As best I can tell the media have mostly kept away from this subject.

 

[elbows]

Subsequently they have admitted that the levels at a monitoring position at edge of site did spike upwards for a while after Mondays smoke incident.

I dont think I've seen any news stories about it yet but I think they are making progress at unit 2, as the last couple of status updates about the reactors now features a temperature for the unit 2 spent fuel pool, previously this data was not available.

http://www.nisa.meti.go.jp/english/files/en20110322-1-1.pdf

Between the first report where this stat was included, and the second report some hours later, the temp had increased 1C to 50C. I believe they put 40t of water into this pool just the other day, so we can only imagine what the temperature was previously.

 

[PtolemaiosDante]

Will it be another Chernobyl ?

 

[krtek a houby]

Will it be another Chernobyl ?

It is what it is. Why do people keep mentioning bloody Chernobyl?

 

[claphamboy]

Will it be another Chernobyl ?

This answers that question - Comparing Chernobyl & Fukushima

 

[elbows]

Still havent seen any news reports that mentioned the temperature of unit 2 spent fuel pool now being available!

Mind you its a pretty confusing picture, because it seems an official called Hidehiko Nishiyama told the press that the unit 2 pool is around boiling point, eg:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/fresh-blow-in-nuclear-plant-crisis-2249329.html

A pool for storing spent fuel at Japan's crippled nuclear plant is heating up, with temperatures around boiling point, an official said today.

Nuclear safety agency official Hidehiko Nishiyama told reporters that the high temperatures in the spent fuel pool are believed to be the cause of steam which has been drifting from Fukushima Dai-ichi's Unit 2 since yesterday.

But the latest official data I saw, the temp was shown at 53 degrees C at 11.20am JST today. (Source is in Japanese as UK translation lags behind: http://www.meti.go.jp/press/20110322005/20110322005-3.pdf )

Now thats higher than the temps that we see in Unit 5 & 6 fuel pools, which have come down considerably since they restored some function to these units a few days back. (37.5C and 25C according to last report). But its not exactly at boiling point.So there are some contradictions here that I cannot fully explain right now.

 

[elbows]

Thermal images of reactors 1 through 4 from above:

http://bigdustup.blogspot.com/2011/03/infrared-ir-thermal-images-of-fukushima.html

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

It is what it is. Why do people keep mentioning bloody Chernobyl?

It's like people who have had disasters claiming "this is our 9/11"

 

[audiotech]

This answers that question - Comparing Chernobyl & Fukushima

Thanks for that link claphamboy.

Watch the hour long uncensored documentary.

The courage of the Chernobyl workers, many exposed to lethal doses of radiation, two died that night, 28 died in the months later, avoided a second explosion, ten times more powerful than the bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. This would have caused a nuclear explosion that would have wiped out half of Europe. This was kept secret for over twenty years by both the Soviets and the West alike.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5384001427276447319&hl=en#

 

[krtek a houby]

It's like people who have had disasters claiming "this is our 9/11"

I know, it pissed me off. It's like some kind of Disaster Olympics

 

[claphamboy]

I know, it pissed me off. It's like some kind of Disaster Olympics

Aye, this has pissed me off on another forum where one barking mad poster was claiming he was an expert and in contact with an 'inside source' and that this was going to be bigger than Chernobyl and total meltdown was going to occur in the next 12-24 hours.

I picked him up on that post, and others, he hasn't returned to the thread in the last 4-5 days, since his final doom & gloom prediction has been clearly shown to be bollocks.

Although, TBF to PtolemaiosDante, he was only asking a question, which in view of people's natural fears with all things nuclear is fair enough, he wasn't acting like that twat on the other forum - where people living in Japan were posting!

 

[audiotech]

It is what it is. Why do people keep mentioning bloody Chernobyl?

a) Because people shouldn't forget the nuclear emergency that was and the nuclear catastrophe that was avoided by selfless individuals.

b) To make comparisons with this latest nuclear emergency.

c) To garner support for sustainable and safe alternatives, wind, wave, solar.

d) To avoid coming out with banalities like yours.

 

[kyser_soze]

Why do people keep mentioning bloody Chernobyl?

Cos it's nooklear innit? Must all be the same thing, 3 Mile Island, Chernobyl, Fukushima. Radiation and that.

The fact that there are no valid comparisons to make between this and Chernobyl (from reactor design thru to the actual events that created the problems in the first place) is beside the point - the greenies are wetting their pants at the thought of RADIATION generally, and the press are too stupid/lazy to actually bother reporting on it properly.

 

[gosub]

 

[elbows]

Looks like it is has made it to this part of the world some days sooner than certain media stories had suggested.

Miniscule numbers of radioactive particles believed to have come from the quake-damaged Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant in northeastern Japan have been detected in the Icelandic capital of Reykjavik by Tuesday, the Reuters news service said.

Citing multiple diplomatic sources, the report said that radiation from the particles is not at a level that would negatively affect human health. It is the first time radioactive materials believed to be released by accidents at the nuclear power plant have been observed in Europe.

The radioactive materials were detected at a facility related to the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty Organization, a Vienna-based U.N. body for monitoring nuclear tests, it said.

''It's only a matter of days before it disperses in the entire northern hemisphere,'' Andreas Stohl, a senior scientist at the Norwegian Institute for Air Research, was quoted as saying. Stohl said there would be no concern about human health over Europe, according to Reuters.==Kyodo

http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/03/80291.html

 

[mincepie]

Some progress. Not sure why no-one thought of this before today...
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/22_42.html

 

[elbows]

Yeah I heard about that, first saw the idea suggested quite a number of days ago on the net.

Other news today is more of the same regarding radiation levels away from the plant, and contamination of various foodstuffs, sea and soil. Some steady progress on the electricity front, with the lights apparently now being on in reactor 3 control room.

Elevated radiation levels on Tokyo, presumed by me to be down to weather (wind direction & rain) continued today much as they did yesterday. I shall link to a decent graph website again to save me having to try to describe the details and possibly make a mistake.

http://fleep.com/earthquake/

The IAEA updates today concerning the various spent fuel pools have been to my liking, a good summary including some of the stuff I was going on about here in recent days. Im not sure how long we may have to wait to get the full picture with these pools, quite the range of possibilities still seem to exist for several of the pools.

http://www.iaea.org/newscenter/news/tsunamiupdate01.html

 

[Dr Jon]

Thanks for that link claphamboy.

Watch the hour long uncensored documentary.

The courage of the Chernobyl workers, many exposed to lethal doses of radiation, two died that night, 28 died in the months later, avoided a second explosion, ten times more powerful than the bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. This would have caused a nuclear explosion that would have wiped out half of Europe. This was kept secret for over twenty years by both the Soviets and the West alike.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5384001427276447319&hl=en#

Just watched that.

I believed that Chernobyl had been "sealed n sorted" and am shocked to learn that the sarcophagus is already suffering from structural impairment, although it needs to keep its contents isolated from the environment for 24,000 years. Nobody has any money for the repair work, which is dangerous and already 10 years late.

Shit.

 

[mauvais]

Thanks for that link claphamboy.

Watch the hour long uncensored documentary.

The courage of the Chernobyl workers, many exposed to lethal doses of radiation, two died that night, 28 died in the months later, avoided a second explosion, ten times more powerful than the bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. This would have caused a nuclear explosion that would have wiped out half of Europe. This was kept secret for over twenty years by both the Soviets and the West alike.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5384001427276447319&hl=en#

A nuclear explosion? Absolute nonsense.

 

[Crispy]

A nuclear explosion? Absolute nonsense.

Indeed. A nuclear bomb requires precise compression of the core by a symmetrical shock wave. Nuclear power plants cannot explode like a nuclear bomb. Full stop.

The radiation that's leaked from Fukushima is absolutely minute by comparison to Chernobyl. Its not a great advert for the Japanese nuclear industry, particularly the failure to plan for the combination of earhtquake and tsunami, but it hasn't shaken my faith in the safety of nuclear power plants. The waste disposal question is still by far the biggest problem with nuclear power.

 

[elbows]

The waste disposal question is still by far the biggest problem with nuclear power.

If we are lucky then the fears and possible nightmare realities at the spent fuel pools might draw more attention to issues of waste going forwards.

I doubt any of these events are going to help Sellafields MOX plant any. Already seen as a while elephant and previously threatened with closure, I think its Japanese contracts which have given it continued life. Hopefully we will soon learn more about the state of reactor 3 & its fuel pool, where I understand some MOX products are used.

Many questions remain. The IAEA has even started asking the obvious ones, such as about various fuel pools and reactors that we havent heard much about, and more generally this doozie:

The International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) also raised concerns about a lack of information from Japanese authorities, as workers battling to cool the nuclear reactors faced rising temperatures around the core of one reactor.

"We continue to see radiation coming from the site ... and the question is where exactly is that coming from?" James Lyons, a senior official of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), told a news conference in Vienna on Tuesday.

http://ca.reuters.com/article/topNews/idCATRE72A0SS20110322?pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=0

 

[elbows]

Yet more reactor data becomes available:

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/23_10.html

Thermometers working again at 3 reactors
Tokyo Electric Power Company says thermometers are working again at 3 of the reactors at the quake-hit Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant.

The March 11th earthquake and tsunami cut off power and the reactors' measurement equipment stopped working.

TEPCO tried to restore the instruments' functions with make-shift power sources, including batteries. It says the thermometer at the Number 3 reactor started working again last Saturday morning.

At that time, the temperature of the reactor's external surface was 366 degrees Celsius, much higher than normal. The company increased the amount of sea water it was using to cool down the reactor.

The thermometers for the Number 1 and Number 2 reactors were restored on Sunday.

The power company says it will pour more water onto the Number 1 reactor, as its temperature was 394 degrees on 3:30 PM on Tuesday.

TEPCO says the functioning thermometers, along with devices to measure pressure and water levels, will provide better information about the condition of the reactors.
Wednesday, March 23, 2011 06:12 +0900 (JST)

 

[weltweit]

So, does it appear that they are getting the site under control?

What state do the reactors and fuel pools have to be in before they can encase everything in concrete tombs and leave them for eternity?

 

[two sheds]

Lets remember that nuclear plants are so safe because of all the safety checks and monitoring that goes on:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/22/japan-nuclear-power-plant-checks-missed

 

[elbows]

So, does it appear that they are getting the site under control?

What state do the reactors and fuel pools have to be in before they can encase everything in concrete tombs and leave them for eternity?

Sort of. To say its under control would be misleading, but can say they are making progress. This progress may continue steadily, or there could be setbacks or new incidents.

The longer term plans for the site remain unclear at this point. I assume concrete operations would be complicated by the fact that so many different sources of radiation are present on site. Whether to abandon everything and seal it as best as possible likely comes down to a complicated judgement. Once they have done the concrete thing then their ability to do anythign else is reduced to about nothing so Im sure they would rather try to keep improving the situation first. But in the meantime radioactive substances continue to be released, so they shouldnt let this phase drag on for too long.

Todays news is limited again. Infants in Tokyo advised not to be given tap water due to high levels of things like Iodine in t, that exceed safety limits for infants. Black smoke seem from unit 3 again, some talk of radiation levels rising after this on site, but I've not see the data to support this myself, just a single number mentioned in a breaking news headline that has long since vanished from the Kyodo site.

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

Virgin Cancelled its first flight to tokyo since the day of the big quake. Probably not radiation related, maybe just low travel numbers?

 

[Barking_Mad]

wind patterns suggest any airborne radiation will blow over damaged tsunami areas. Model here http://en.ilmatieteenlaitos.fi/japan

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

wind patterns suggest any airborne radiation will blow over damaged tsunami areas. Model here http://en.ilmatieteenlaitos.fi/japan

Why are there four different animations?