Fukushima Daiichi nuclear disaster

[Barking_Mad]

This map of radiation levels in Japan might be worth a look

Not surprisingly, Miyagi and Fukushima are completely N/A, as every single reading is Under Survey, also known as censored.nGy/h (nano- Grays per hour)Update: Since last Update Ishikawa has also been reported as -Under Survey-

http://www.targetmap.com/viewer.aspx?reportId=4870

Edit: Info on this system can be seen on the following PDF

 

[bi0boy]

They showed other countries with nuclear reactors somewhere last night. California was one of them and that has two reactors. They're still awaiting the "big one"

Portugal is overdue one also, which would produce a nice tsunami... and our Dungeness plant is actually on the beach:

 

[Dr Jon]

What amazes me is that they built a reactor on the coast with a massive faultline just off shore and didnt think to check that in the event of a tsunami that the diesel generator pumps would be operable. I mean seirously - that's gross negligence unless other factors come to light that excuse the reason why this didnt work properly.

Build them off ground, build them in a sealed watertight container - do something but dont build them on ground level off the shore knowing flooding would affect them.

Yeah, absolutely insane.
As is building nukes in an area of such seismic activity in the first place, IMO. If they really, really must have nukes there, then they should have been designed with multiple sets of "belts and braces", though I expect bean-counters would overrule that as being too expensive...

 

[ska invita]

What amazes me is that they built a reactor on the coast with a massive faultline just off shore and didnt think to check that in the event of a tsunami that the diesel generator pumps would be operable. I mean seirously - that's gross negligence unless other factors come to light that excuse the reason why this didnt work properly.

Build them off ground, build them in a sealed watertight container - do something but dont build them on ground level off the shore knowing flooding would affect them.

I think theres nuclear power stations on the san andreas fault too - though not sure if in similar situ.

NHK reports from people in the evacuation zone in Myagi Prefecture that they are not receiving supplies, and are being told no buses can come to evacuate and that they feel they are being left to die.

It does seem incredible that they haven't evacuated everyone from the area by now who needs shelter.

*cant believe its snowing now - what else could go wrong?

 

[nick h.]

Portugal is overdue one also, which would produce a nice tsunami... and our Dungeness plant is actually on the beach:
cv,o

Hmm. An intriguing scenario. If the 1755 Lisbon quake were repeated, Cornwall would get a 3 metre tsunami. I doubt it would have much oomph by the time it got to Dungeness. Where the sole remaining reactor is offline for much of the time, and will probably be permanently closed down by the end of the decade. The local MP wants a new one built there. http://www.kentonline.co.uk/kentish_express/news/2010/June/24/power_station.aspx I don't see why not. The Japanese wouldn't have had any problems with theirs if they'd spent more money on generators and batteries. I'm sure any plans for new power stations will now get a bit more in the budget for these things.

 

[laptop]

our Dungeness plant is actually on the beach:

Is it true that there's a fleet of dump trucks carting shingle from one side of the power station to the other, to stop the beach moving away from the reactor?

 

[nick h.]

Could be. But it's nothing to panic about. Shingle moves around a fair bit. And if it's part of the sea defences it has to be maintained. That applies not just to the power station but to the whole area, which is barely above sea level.

e2a. Been doing some more reading on this. In addition to moving shingle around the beach the Environment Agency is also carting in extra gravel from local pits. Nothing wrong with that. It's a full time job trying to keep the sea out of an area which was once underwater. It's amazing to see how much shingle can be moved around by the waves. I used to live just along the coast at Winchelsea and would go down to the beach in a storm to watch it happening.

Some background here:

http://www.localrags.co.uk/index.ph...ness-sea-defences-a-good-use-of-public-funds/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/kent/hi/people_and_places/nature/newsid_8478000/8478420.stm

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

They showed other countries with nuclear reactors somewhere last night. California was one of them and that has two reactors. They're still awaiting the "big one"

Power generation isn't the only place you'd find nuclear reactors. There's also research reactors at many Universities. I live within a mile of one of these.

 

[TitanSound]

They showed other countries with nuclear reactors somewhere last night. California was one of them and that has two reactors. They're still awaiting the "big one"

There was a video posted earlier in the thread explaining that a certain number of reactors in the US are of the same design as the Fukishima. I.e. not really that safe in these circumstances.

 

[lopsidedbunny]

From Guardian Newspaper

A concern for the people not just of Japan but the Pan Pacific area is whether Fukushima will turn into the next Chernobyl with radiation spread over a big area. The answer is that this scenario is highly unlikely, because of the wildly different design of the two reactors.
The reason why radiation was disseminated so widely from Chernobyl with such devastating effects was a carbon fire. Some 1,200 tonnes of carbon were in the reactor at Chernobyl and this caused the fire which projected radioactive material up into the upper atmosphere causing it to be carried across most of Europe.

There is no carbon in the reactors at Fukushima, and this means that even if a large amount of radioactive material were to leak from the plant, it would only affect the local area.

The Japanese authorities acted swiftly and decisively in evacuating people living within 20km of the plant, and ensuring people living within 30km of the plant remained in their homes, with windows and doors closed. The radiation measured so far at Fukushima is 100,000 times less than that at Chernobyl.

 

[lopsidedbunny]

From Guardian Newspaper

"There is clear evidence that the fuel cask cranes that haul spent fuels to and from the reactor to the pool both fell. They are gone," he said. "There appears to be copious amounts of steam pouring out of the area where the pool is located."

The damage confronts technicians with the tasks of cooling both the reactor and the fuel pools, where temperatures also began rising dangerously once the nuclear plants lost power.

"The spent fuel pool in unit 4 is boiling, and once that starts you can't stop it," said Jim Riccio, a nuclear expert at Greenpeace. "The threat is that if you boil off the water, the metal cladding on the fuel rods that is exposed to the air, and is volatile, will catch fire. That will propel the radiation even further."

 

[Barking_Mad]

..

Reuters is reporting that the head of the International Atomic Energy Agency has said the situation at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant is "very serious".

 

[Barking_Mad]

...

Kyodo is reporting new plumes of smoke coming from the building housing reactor three.

 

[quimcunx]

A little while ago they were reporting that they had aborted plan to use helicopters to throw water on there and were going to use police water canon(?). If either of these were effective methods they'd have been using them before now, surely. Clutching at straws.

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

A little while ago they were reporting that they had aborted plan to use helicopters to throw water on there and were going to use police water canon(?). If either of these were effective methods they'd have been using them before now, surely. Clutching at straws.

They have used them, although I'm not sure on what particular bit of the plant they were being directed at. Think it was soon after the initial quake

Ah, found picture. Was at an oil facility, not a power plant

 

[ska invita]

Interesting piece here by greg palast on Tokyo Electric Power Co
http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/index.php/news/content/view/full/102293

this kind of thing in it

Nuclear plants the world over must be certified for what is called SQ or seismic qualification. That is, the owners swear that all components are designed for the maximum conceivable shaking event, be it from an earthquake or an exploding Christmas card from al-Qaida.

The most inexpensive way to meet your SQ is to lie. The industry does it all the time.

The government team I worked with caught them once, in 1988, at the Shoreham plant in New York. Correcting the SQ problem at Shoreham would have cost a cool billion, so engineers were told to change the tests from "failed" to "passed."

The company that put in the false safety report? Stone & Webster, now the nuclear unit of Shaw Construction which will work with Tokyo Electric to build the Texas plant, Lord help us.

and

More likely is that the diesels and related systems wouldn't have worked on a fine, dry afternoon.

Back in the day, when we checked the emergency back-up diesels in the US, a mind-blowing number flunked.

At the New York nuke, for example, the builders swore under oath that their three diesel engines were ready for an emergency.

They'd been tested. The tests were faked, the diesels run for just a short time at low speed.

When the diesels were put through a real test under emergency-like conditions, the crankshaft on the first one snapped in about an hour, then the second and third. We nicknamed the diesels "Snap, Crackle and Pop." (Note: Moments after I wrote that sentence, word came that two of three diesels failed at the Tokai station as well.)

 

[TruXta]

ska: The problem is that the design earthquake - that is, the maximum probable event that the plant was designed to withstand - would in all likelihood have been a lot lower than a 9.0 anyway. I'm guessing, if US design codes are anything to go by that the design earthquake was about 7.5, which is many many times less powerful than what happened. Add to that a 30 foot tsunami and all plans go out the window.

That said it's rage-inducing to hear the kind of stuff that Palast relates in that quote. The US should be very fucking worried.

 

[claphamboy]

Ah, found picture. Was at an oil facility, not a power plant

Nor were they 'police water canon', otherwise spot on Minnie.

 

[elbows]

The only good news today is that earlier fears that Unit 3's containment had broken have receded, and since last night in Japan the wind seems to have returned to a more favourable direction, blowing stuff out to sea.

Most of the other news is not good, but is lacking sufficient detail to make any great claims at this stage.

Various countries announcing that they are laying on flights etc for their people to leave Japan will not help the fear picture. Nor will the US Embassy advice for US citizens to evacuate or stay indoors within a 50 mile radius of the site. Thats 80km which is obviously a much greater evacuation area than the Japanese themselves have implemented so far.

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

Nor were they 'police water canon', otherwise spot on Minnie.

Well I know that, but I figured that's the type of equipment that Quimmy was talking about

 

[Corax]

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/16_36.html

Experts say exposure to such radiation for 3 hours would result in absorption of 1 millisievert, or the maximum considered safe for 1 year.

Hmmm. That ain't right.

We are exposed to radiation from natural sources all the time. The average person in the U.S. receives an effective dose of about 3 mSv per year from naturally occurring radioactive materials and cosmic radiation from outer space. These natural "background" doses vary throughout the country.

People living in the plateaus of Colorado or New Mexico receive about 1.5 mSv more per year than those living near sea level. The added dose from cosmic rays during a coast-to-coast round trip flight in a commercial airplane is about 0.03 mSv. Altitude plays a big role, but the largest source of background radiation comes from radon gas in our homes (about 2 mSv per year).

Also gives you comparisons of CT scans, X-rays etc:

http://www.radiologyinfo.org/en/safety/index.cfm?pg=sfty_xray

 

[miss minnie]

W7VOA Steve Herman
Just got US Embassy fax: advising Americans within 80km of Fukushima nuke plant to evac or take shelter indoors.
7 minutes ago

W7VOA Steve Herman
What's weird to me is the US Embassy in Tokyo sent out the fax at 3 a.m. I'm probably the only American awake within the radius.
6 minutes ago

 

[bi0boy]

Hmmm. That ain't right.



Also gives you comparisons of CT scans, X-rays etc:

http://www.radiologyinfo.org/en/safety/index.cfm?pg=sfty_xray

1mSv is the limit for public exposure. This means anyone working with radioactivity must ensure members of the public aren't exposed to more than this. Obviously there will be background on top of this to give the total exposure.

 

[elbows]

Hmmm. That ain't right.

I've read too much in the last 5 days so I may have got it wrong, but I think the confusion maybe because 1 millisievert is the maximum additional exposure from occupational etc sources that someone is supposed to have per year, on top of the millisievert or 2 that you may get per year from normal background radiation.

edit - oops bi0boy beat me to it.

Various readings are all over the place so not point dwelling on one particular reading, but a third of a millisievert at a location 20km away from the plant is not exactly a good sign.

 

[elbows]

Regarding the timing of the US Embassy evacuation information, I dont know if they put it out at that time because new data or conclusion had just been reached, or whether they did it so that the news will be available when anybody wakes up. Its possible that the Japanese government will announce a wider evacuation once morning breaks as well, or not. If not then its going to make the public trust issues worst, because of the contradiction between US & Japanese evacuations. We will find out in the next 3 and a half to 8 hours.

 

[elbows]

The UK advice is vaguer but no more reassuring:

The most recent advice from the UK’s Chief Scientific Adviser remains that for those outside the exclusion zone set up by the Japanese authorities there is no real human health issue that people should be concerned about. This advice is kept under constant review. However, due to the evolving situation at the Fukushima nuclear facility and potential disruptions to the supply of goods, transport, communications, power and other infrastructure, British nationals in Tokyo and to the north of Tokyo should consider leaving the area.

 

[audiotech]

Nuclear Experts Say Japan's Crisis is Intensifying.

PART ONE

 

[audiotech]

Why aren't all global forces being mobilised now to deal with this very serious crises?

These hand-sitters mobilise for f*cking war easily enough.

 

[Corax]

1mSv is the limit for public exposure. This means anyone working with radioactivity must ensure members of the public aren't exposed to more than this. Obviously there will be background on top of this to give the total exposure.

I've read too much in the last 5 days so I may have got it wrong, but I think the confusion maybe because 1 millisievert is the maximum additional exposure from occupational etc sources that someone is supposed to have per year, on top of the millisievert or 2 that you may get per year from normal background radiation.

That makes sense, with it being additional. The max safe dose being less that standard background radiation (let alone places like Cornwall, at 7.8 mSv per year), didn't quite compute.

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

Japanese PM's spokesman speaking on Ch 4 now. Seems adamant there's little danger