For those who believe in revolution by force, a question?

[Magnus McGinty]

Surely a revolution can only come about by force?
It’s not as if you can sit the status quo down and they acquiesce through the power of disagreement.

 

[Pickman's model]

Surely a revolution can only come about by force?
It’s not as if you can sit the status quo down and they acquiesce through the power of disagreement.

The velvet revolution often held up as an example of peaceful revolution, same with east germany

But there are revolutions and revolutions

 

[Magnus McGinty]

The velvet revolution often held up as an example of peaceful revolution, same with east germany

But there are revolutions and revolutions

Good point. Gorbachev basically gave up preventing it happening, I’d forgotten about that. Don’t know the other.

 

[Pickman's model]

Good point. Gorbachev basically gave up preventing it happening, I’d forgotten about that. Don’t know the other.

Velvet - Czechoslovakia

 

[ska invita]

Surely a revolution can only come about by force?
It’s not as if you can sit the status quo down and they acquiesce through the power of disagreement.

Key theorist of nonviolent revolution Gene Sharp said he wasnt a pacifist for moral reasons but for strategic ones. Who now can overthrow a state with its military apparatus? A physical fight is one you are only ever going to lose and in so losing further strengthen the state.
He wrote a lot of on the topic but a good long-pamphlet was From Dictatorship to Democracy -widely available as a PDF in many languages

From Dictatorship to Democracy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

All very influential.

At a quickest of glances the lists of nonviolent methods makes a good summary:

Appendix One
The Methods Of Nonviolent Action16
The Methods of Nonviolent Protest and
Persuasion
Formal statements
1. Public speeches
2. Letters of opposition or support
3. Declarations by organizations and institutions
4. Signed public statements
5. Declarations of indictment and intention
6. Group or mass petitions
Communications with a wider audience
7. Slogans, caricatures, and symbols
8. Banners, posters, and displayed communications
9. Leaflets, pamphlets, and books
10. Newspapers and journals
11. Records, radio, and television
12. Skywriting and earthwriting
Group representations
13. Deputations
14. Mock awards
15. Group lobbying
16. Picketing
17. Mock elections
Symbolic public acts
18. Display of flags and symbolic colors
19. Wearing of symbols
79
16 This list, with definitions and historical examples, is taken from Gene Sharp,
The Politics of Nonviolent Action, Part Two, The Methods of Nonviolent Action.
20. Prayer and worship
21. Delivering symbolic objects
22. Protest disrobings
23. Destruction of own property
24. Symbolic lights
25. Displays of portraits
26. Paint as protest
27. New signs and names
28. Symbolic sounds
29. Symbolic reclamations
30. Rude gestures
Pressures on individuals
31. “Haunting” officials
32. Taunting officials
33. Fraternization
34. Vigils
Drama and music
35. Humorous skits and pranks
36. Performance of plays and music
37. Singing
Processions
38. Marches
39. Parades
40. Religious processions
41. Pilgrimages
42. Motorcades
Honoring the dead
43. Political mourning
44. Mock funerals
45. Demonstrative funerals
46. Homage at burial places
80 Gene Sharp
From Dictatorship to Democracy 81
Public assemblies
47. Assemblies of protest or support
48. Protest meetings
49. Camouflaged meetings of protest
50. Teach-ins
Withdrawal and renunciation
51. Walk-outs
52. Silence
53. Renouncing honors
54. Turning one’s back
THE METHODS OF SOCIAL NONCOOPERATION
Ostracism of persons
55. Social boycott
56. Selective social boycott
57. Lysistratic nonaction
58. Excommunication
59. Interdict
Noncooperation with social events, customs, and institutions
60. Suspension of social and sports activities
61. Boycott of social affairs
62. Student strike
63. Social disobedience
64. Withdrawal from social institutions
Withdrawal from the social system
65. Stay-at-home
66. Total personal noncooperation
67. Flight of workers
68. Sanctuary
69. Collective disappearance
70. Protest emigration (hijrat)
THE METHODS OF ECONOMIC NONCOOPERATION:
(1) ECONOMIC BOYCOTTS
Action by consumers
71. Consumers’ boycott
72. Nonconsumption of boycotted goods
73. Policy of austerity
74. Rent withholding
75. Refusal to rent
76. National consumers’ boycott
77. International consumers’ boycott
Action by workers and producers
78. Workmen’s boycott
79. Producers’ boycott
Action by middlemen
80. Suppliers’ and handlers’ boycott
Action by owners and management
81. Traders’ boycott
82. Refusal to let or sell property
83. Lockout
84. Refusal of industrial assistance
85. Merchants’ “general strike”
Action by holders of financial resources
86. Withdrawal of bank deposits
87. Refusal to pay fees, dues, and assessments
88. Refusal to pay debts or interest
89. Severance of funds and credit
90. Revenue refusal
91. Refusal of a government’s money
Action by governments
92. Domestic embargo
93. Blacklisting of traders
94. International sellers’ embargo
95. International buyers’ embargo
96. International trade embargo
82 Gene Sharp
From Dictatorship to Democracy 83
THE METHODS OF ECONOMIC NONCOOPERATION:
(2) THE STRIKE
Symbolic strikes
97. Protest strike
98. Quickie walkout (lightning strike)
Agricultural strikes
99. Peasant strike
100. Farm workers’ strike
Strikes by special groups
101. Refusal of impressed labor
102. Prisoners’ strike
103. Craft strike
104. Professional strike
Ordinary industrial strikes
105. Establishment strike
106. Industry strike
107. Sympathetic strike
Restricted strikes
108. Detailed strike
109. Bumper strike
110. Slowdown strike
111. Working-to-rule strike
112. Reporting “sick” (sick-in)
113. Strike by resignation
114. Limited strike
115. Selective strike
Multi-industry strikes
116. Generalized strike
117. General strike
Combinations of strikes and economic closures
118. Hartal
119. Economic shutdown
THE METHODS OF POLITICAL NONCOOPERATION
Rejection of authority
120. Withholding or withdrawal of allegiance
121. Refusal of public support
122. Literature and speeches advocating resistance
Citizens’ noncooperation with government
123. Boycott of legislative bodies
124. Boycott of elections
125. Boycott of government employment and positions
126. Boycott of government departments, agencies and
other bodies
127. Withdrawal from government educational institutions
128. Boycott of government-supported organizations
129. Refusal of assistance to enforcement agents
130. Removal of own signs and placemarks
131. Refusal to accept appointed officials
132. Refusal to dissolve existing institutions
Citizens’ alternatives to obedience
133. Reluctant and slow compliance
134. Nonobedience in absence of direct supervision
135. Popular nonobedience
136. Disguised disobedience
137. Refusal of an assemblage or meeting to disperse
138. Sitdown
139. Noncooperation with conscription and deportation
140. Hiding, escape and false identities
141. Civil disobedience of “illegitimate” laws
Action by government personnel
142. Selective refusal of assistance by government aides
143. Blocking of lines of command and information
144. Stalling and obstruction
145. General administrative noncooperation
84 Gene Sharp
From Dictatorship to Democracy 85
146. Judicial noncooperation
147. Deliberate inefficiency and selective noncooperation by
enforcement agents
148. Mutiny
Domestic governmental action
149. Quasi-legal evasions and delays
150. Noncooperation by constituent governmental units
International governmental action
151. Changes in diplomatic and other representation
152. Delay and cancellation of diplomatic events
153. Withholding of diplomatic recognition
154. Severance of diplomatic relations
155. Withdrawal from international organizations
156. Refusal of membership in international bodies
157. Expulsion from international organizations
THE METHODS OF NONVIOLENT INTERVENTION
Psychological intervention
158. Self-exposure to the elements
159. The fast
(a) Fast of moral pressure
(b) Hunger strike
(c) Satyagrahic fast
160. Reverse trial
161. Nonviolent harassment
Physical intervention
162. Sit-in
163. Stand-in
164. Ride-in
165. Wade-in
166. Mill-in
167. Pray-in
168. Nonviolent raids
169. Nonviolent air raids
170. Nonviolent invasion
171. Nonviolent interjection
172. Nonviolent obstruction
173. Nonviolent occupation
Social intervention
174. Establishing new social patterns
175. Overloading of facilities
176. Stall-in
177. Speak-in
178. Guerrilla theater
179. Alternative social institutions
180. Alternative communication system
Economic intervention
181. Reverse strike
182. Stay-in strike
183. Nonviolent land seizure
184. Defiance of blockades
185. Politically motivated counterfeiting
186. Preclusive purchasing
187. Seizure of assets
188. Dumping
189. Selective patronage
190. Alternative markets
191. Alternative transportation systems
192. Alternative economic institutions
Political intervention
193. Overloading of administrative systems
194. Disclosing identities of secret agents
195. Seeking imprisonment
196. Civil disobedience of “neutral” laws
197. Work-on without collaboration
198. Dual sovereignty and parallel government

​

From the wiki: Topics Covered
From Dictatorship to Democracy contains a preface and ten sections. Its first appendix includes 198 Methods Of Nonviolent Action that were taken from Gene Sharp's The Politics of Nonviolent Action (1973), Part Two, The Methods of Nonviolent Action. The main sections of the 4th US edition are entitled:

1. Facing Dictatorships Realistically
2. The Dangers of Negotiations
3. Whence Comes the Power?
4. Dictatorships Have Weaknesses
5. Exercising Power
6. The Need for Strategic Planning
7. Planning Strategy
8. Applying Political Defiance
9. Disintegrating the Dictatorship
10. Groundwork for Durable Democracy

Three appendices are included in the fourth US edition of FDTD:

Appendix 1. The Methods of Nonviolent ActionAppendix 2. Acknowledgements and Notes on the History of From Dictatorship to DemocracyAppendix 3. A Note About Translations and Reprinting of this PublicationFor Further Reading
Appendix 3 gives a step-by-step procedure for effectively translating FDTD into other languages.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Velvet - Czechoslovakia

Wasn’t Czechoslovakia pretty overwhelming? If only we could get close to similar.
In terms of the end of the Soviet Union didn’t Gorbachev desire himself the end of Communism? And if so obviously a revolution is simple if it coincides with the desires of the state.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Key theorist of nonviolent revolution Gene Sharp said he wasnt a pacifist for moral reasons but for strategic ones. Who now can overthrow a state with its military apparatus? A physical fight is one you are only ever going to lose and in so losing further strengthen the state.
He wrote a lot of on the topic but a good long-pamphlet was From Dictatorship to Democracy -widely available as a PDF in many languages

From Dictatorship to Democracy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

All very influential.

At a quickest of glances the lists of nonviolent methods makes a good summary:

​

From the wiki: Topics Covered
From Dictatorship to Democracy contains a preface and ten sections. Its first appendix includes 198 Methods Of Nonviolent Action that were taken from Gene Sharp's The Politics of Nonviolent Action (1973), Part Two, The Methods of Nonviolent Action. The main sections of the 4th US edition are entitled:

1. Facing Dictatorships Realistically
2. The Dangers of Negotiations
3. Whence Comes the Power?
4. Dictatorships Have Weaknesses
5. Exercising Power
6. The Need for Strategic Planning
7. Planning Strategy
8. Applying Political Defiance
9. Disintegrating the Dictatorship
10. Groundwork for Durable Democracy

Three appendices are included in the fourth US edition of FDTD:

Appendix 1. The Methods of Nonviolent ActionAppendix 2. Acknowledgements and Notes on the History of From Dictatorship to DemocracyAppendix 3. A Note About Translations and Reprinting of this PublicationFor Further Reading
Appendix 3 gives a step-by-step procedure for effectively translating FDTD into other languages.

Thanks for this btw, that’s some interesting reading which I’ll follow through on even if I think it is basically impossible (from the working class perspective I’m looking at it with).

 

[danny la rouge]

What absolute nonsense
I can’t even…

It's not nonsense, though. The fact is that human beings are intellectually and organisationally capable of creating a political and economic system in which people who are dying for avoidable reasons do not die.

Capitalism is not a fact of nature. Depending on how you define capitalism, it emerged with the industrial revolution, whereupon it replaced merchantilism, in the mid 18th Century. So 200-300 years ago. (If you want to include merchantilism in your definition of capitalism - I wouldn't because of the role of aristocracy in it - then you're talking about capitalism arising early to mid 16th century, so add around 250 years to that total).

Humans have been around for about 200 000 years. Industrial capitalism has been with us for 0.13% of our history. Including merchantilism that's still only 0.25% of our time on Earth. If we add our genus, which has been around for two and a half million years, capitalism as a way of organising society disappears into nothingness.

There are enough resources on the Earth for us all to have plenty. The person starving on the street is not a fact of nature, but a product of how we choose to arrange social affairs. Unnecessary deprivation is very much everyone's business.

 

[Flavour]

yes danny that's all very well and good but as the historical record clearly indicates all attempts to overthrow these systems end in second world wars.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

yes danny that's all very well and good but as the historical record clearly indicates all attempts to overthrow these systems end in second world wars.

So all those alternate universes are quite shit as well then?

 

[brogdale]

yes danny that's all very well and good but as the historical record clearly indicates all attempts to overthrow these systems end in second world wars.

Who knew that the Nazi's hankering for Primitivist communism led to all that?

 

[Flavour]

Communism, national socialism, whatever. use of force. i've done the diagrams and the flow charts and every single time I end up with a Stalingrad.

 

[Pickman's model]

Communism, national socialism, whatever. use of force. i've done the diagrams and the flow charts and every single time I end up with a Stalingrad.

you're doing it wrong then

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

Communism, national socialism, whatever. use of force. i've done the diagrams and the flow charts and every single time I end up with a Stalingrad.

Post needs screenshots now. I’m serious

 

[Flavour]

you're doing it wrong then

Trying to change the world for the better inevitably results in genocide and soggy boots, these are just facts.

 

[Flavour]

Post needs screenshots now. I’m serious

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

Trying to change the world for the better inevitably results in genocide and soggy boots, these are just facts.

Or it could be that violent conflict is inevitable under capitalism. When people seek to change it, they aren’t introducing conflict to a normally peaceful state of affairs, the conflict is already there, i don’t see how it can’t escalate from time to time unless you think everyone should actually fashion themselves into tools and give up on their humanity entirely. She said incoherently lol

I like your flowchart, it has an element of comedy that has brightened my day. I might make my own for a laugh later on.

 

[Pickman's model]

Trying to change the world for the better inevitably results in genocide and soggy boots, these are just facts.

no, they aren't: that's an assertion for which you have yet to adduce any of your actual proof

 

[Flavour]

Posters with keen eyes will know when I am being serious and when I am not.

 

[Serge Forward]

Trying to change the world for the better inevitably results in genocide and soggy boots, these are just facts.

Knuckle under, you know it makes sense.

 

[Pickman's model]

View attachment 297378

if that's the sort of flowchart you've spent hours on i think i can see where you're going wrong

 

[Serge Forward]

Posters with keen eyes will know when I am being serious and when I am not.

Now where did I put my glasses?

 

[8ball]

The fact is that human beings are intellectually and organisationally capable of creating a political and economic system in which people who are dying for avoidable reasons do not die.

[citation needed]

 

[Pickman's model]

[citation needed]

ok, not all humans

 

[Sue]

if that's the sort of flowchart you've spent hours on i think i can see where you're going wrong

Yes, it's missing the 'No, we sat down and had a chat over a cup of tea' option.

 

[Flavour]

should have used more italics

 

[Pickman's model]

Yes, i's missing the 'No, we sat down and had a chat over a cup of tea' option.

just so

 

[Flavour]

thread feels very dry and serious for a friday afternoon i must say, and i think we established some time ago that is not a very serious thread

 

[Pickman's model]

thread feels very dry and serious for a friday afternoon i must say, and i think we established some time ago that is not a very serious thread

these are dry and serious times, at least until about five when half of urban breaks their beery fast

 

[Serge Forward]

Revolution is not a tea party... it's always serious