For those who believe in revolution by force, a question?

[danny la rouge]

Freedom of speech and so forth could well be argued to have arisen at the same time as the capitalist turn in the west because the emerging new classes threw their lot in with the general agitation against "Old Corruption" to secure their place at the trough but those rights gains were from the point of view of their business activities largely incidental and were rather won by the more radical elements that included the early working class corresponding societies and so on, though there was that crossover between religious dissenters and early capitalists. Sort of a messy stumble into modernity by the early adopters and has been pointed out above, turns out not to be a required element in the more recent iterations.

I'm currently reading this: The Dawn of Everything I'll have an opinion once I've seen the sweep of the argument, but a very intriguing opening section suggests contact with native Americans is what turbocharged the "Western" notion of equality. (Based on accounts by Jesuit missionaries to the territory now known as Canada).

 

[A380]

not to mention we're frankly lied to, who can forget being told numerous times that there's no political police in britain, we're not like the ussr or east germany? at least in the soviet union and the german democratic republic everyone knew there was a political police, there was no secret about it.

I can never remember being told there were no political police in Britain? A Citation for when you were told that would be cool.

Notwithstanding that all police are political and are funded with the underlying principle that their primary purpose is the defence of the state. Right the way back to Sir Francis Walsingham and Thomas Cromwell the modern state has had agencies than nor only have the powers to surveil opponents of the state but also to take executive action: arrest, charge and at times punishment up to and including death. When was this ever a secret? The power of such organisations relies on people knowing about and fearing them. The MPS only had 40 years between establishment and the establishment of the Special Irish Branch and I have little doubt there were little ad hoc teams reporting to the commissioners long before that.

The Security Service may have started its modern guise as MI5 in the 40s but no serious historian would argue HMG hasn't had that capability, however amateurishly delivered, since there was an HMG. And of course how else did we manage to control an empire that covered a quarter of the world without really effective political policing?

Maybe the Ladybird book of the British Constitution might not cover this but I can't think of any rational sources that would have claimed at any point in our lifetimes that the UK had no political police.

 

[Pickman's model]

I can never remember being told there were no political police in Britain? A Citation for when you were told that would be cool.

Notwithstanding that all police are political and are funded with the underlying principle that their primary purpose is the defence of the state. Right the way back to Sir Francis Walsingham and Thomas Cromwell the modern state had had agencies than nor only have the powers to surveil opponents of the state but also to take executive action, arrest, charge and at times punishment up to and including death. When was this ever a secret? The power of such organisations relies on people knowing about and fearing them. The MPS only had 40 years between establishment and the establishment of the Special Irish Branch and I have little doubt there were little teams reporting to the commissioners long before that.

The Security Service may have started its modern guise as MI5 in the 40s but no serious historian would argue HMG hasn't had that capability, however amateurishly delivered, since there was an HMG. And of course how else did we manage to control an empire that covered a quarter of the world without really effective political policing?

Maybe the Ladybird book of the British Constitution might not cover this but I can't think of any rational sources that would have claimed at any point in our lifetimes that the UK had no political police.

i think you'll find the security service / mi5 traces its origins back to 1909. the metropolitan police was established in 1829. and the special irish branch was established in 1883. which even with my poor grasp of maths is rather more than 40 years. so i am rather loath to trust the other parts of your post beyond the limits of my own knowledge. the obvious reason why there was a suggestion - made by cops at a number of demonstrations in london - that there was no uk political police was doubtless to counterpose countries like the ussr and china against freedom loving britain.

 

[A380]

i think you'll find the security service / mi5 traces its origins back to 1909. the metropolitan police was established in 1829. and the special irish branch was established in 1883. which even with my poor grasp of maths is rather more than 40 years. so i am rather loath to trust the other parts of your post beyond the limits of my own knowledge. the obvious reason why there was a suggestion - made by cops at a number of demonstrations in london - that there was no uk political police was doubtless to counterpose countries like the ussr and china against freedom loving britain.

Right, So what you are saying is that you are basing your understanding of the security mechanisms of the British State on some old bill you happened to meet policing a demonstration? That doesn't seem a particularly robust research methodology to e . Besides, did no one ever tell you never to believe a cop?

(Special Irish Branch was actually set up in 1882 but most references say 1883 so 54 years not 40, I'll give you that...)

 

[Pickman's model]

Right, So what you are saying is that you are basing your understanding of the security mechanisms of the British State on some old bill you happened to meet policing a demonstration? That doesn't seem a particularly robust research methodology. Besides, did no one ever tell you never to believe a cop?

you'll please point me to anything i've posted which said 'and i believed them'. being lied to doesn't mean believing the lie. lots of people have believed there were not political police in britain. i'm not one of them.

 

[A380]

you'll please point me to anything i've posted which said 'and i believed them'. being lied to doesn't mean believing the lie. lots of people have believed there were not political police in britain. i'm not one of them.

Ah, the ‘there’s a man works down the chip shop says his Elvis’ line of argument. Fair play.

Ok. I’m still not sure you’d find many people post puberty who believed that the UK had no political police though .

 

[8ball]

Ok. I’m still not sure you’d find many people post puberty who believed that the UK had no political police though .

I think I could find a lot very easily.

 

[8ball]

you'll please point me to anything i've posted which said 'and i believed them'. being lied to doesn't mean believing the lie. lots of people have believed there were not political police in britain. i'm not one of them.

I take it you don't just mean political police in this sense.

 

[Pickman's model]

I take it you don't just mean political police in this sense.

yes

 

[8ball]

yes

Good to be clear. I think formally we don't have political police in the sense I quoted* - we have the inherent political nature of the police, as well as police being used as de facto 'political police' in the sense quoted, and also the security services, which are that kind of 'political police' in all but name.

* - though I'm not 100% on this

 

[A380]

Good to be clear. I think formally we don't have political police in the sense I quoted* - we have the inherent political nature of the police, as well as police being used as de facto 'political police' in the sense quoted, and also the security services, which are that kind of 'political police' in all but name.

* - though I'm not 100% on this

MI5 - The Security Service

MI5's mission is to keep the country safe. For more than a century we have worked to protect the UK from a range of threats, whether it be from terrorism or hostile activity by states.

www.mi5.gov.uk

Our Network

Our regions work alongside MI5 and other partners to find information and evidence to thwart terrorist planning and help bring perpetrators to justice.

www.counterterrorism.police.uk

Here you go, job adverts and everything.

 

[8ball]

MI5 - The Security Service

MI5's mission is to keep the country safe. For more than a century we have worked to protect the UK from a range of threats, whether it be from terrorism or hostile activity by states.

www.mi5.gov.uk

Our Network

Our regions work alongside MI5 and other partners to find information and evidence to thwart terrorist planning and help bring perpetrators to justice.

www.counterterrorism.police.uk

Here you go, job adverts and everything.

That’s the middle of the cases I was talkimg about.