For those who believe in revolution by force, a question?

[Pickman's model]

Revolution by force means either terrorism or guerilla warfare. Both long drawn out paths that seldom end in victory.

Successful examples I guess include
Northern Island

where is northern island?

 

[A380]

yes

What happened to your 500 word minimum?

 

[Pickman's model]

What happened to your 500 word minimum?

reduced

 

[A380]

where is northern island?

Is that where the Famous Five go on their adventures? slightly to the north of Kirin Island?

 

[hitmouse]

We just need to get control of the toilet paper supply and then there'll be mass defections from the armed forces, I reckon.

 

[marty21]

We just need to get control of the toilet paper supply and then there'll be mass defections from the armed forces, I reckon.

It's a good revolutionary aim , but they do have guns .

 

[JimW]

We just need to get control of the toilet paper supply and then there'll be mass defections from the armed forces, I reckon.

Mass defecations will be harder in those circumstances though.

 

[seventh bullet]

If you want to change the world people are very likely going to have to die. Those who have entrenched interests in the current order will not just give them up without a fight while they're insulated from much of the world either starving, burning or drowning. They won't stand to see workable alternatives begin to flower in any areas of life for the majority they either exploit or ignore. Indeed reaction to what is at first nonviolent political activity is the first to spill blood or incarcerate. Waiting for perfect magical conditions is silly. Violence is awful, but it can be necessary. People are creatures with subjective passions though, and like any aspect of revolutionary change it's full of possibilities, including horrifying.

 

[A380]

it's the greatest canadian contribution to cuisine

Fuck you, eh?

 

[Pickman's model]

Fuck you, eh?

View attachment 296921
View attachment 296922

putting pineapple on pizza involves more cooking than putting maple syrup on fries.

 

[A380]

putting pineapple on pizza involves more cooking than putting maple syrup on fries.

It's gravy and cheese on poutine you heathen.

 

[Edie]

You only need to read 1984, and consider how incredibly astute it was given how 20th C history panned out, to know that left wing revolutions don’t end well.

Thank God we live in a very moderate country, politically.

 

[Epona]

.

 

[ska invita]

You only need to read 1984, and consider how incredibly astute it was given how 20th C history panned out, to know that left wing revolutions don’t end well.

Thank God we live in a very moderate country, politically.

Moderate lol - that great moderate british empire. Recently I really enjoyed the moderate invasion of Iraq, moderate occupation of Afghanistan and moderate bombing of Libya

When you have some spare time you might want to add up to the tens of millions of deaths involved in these right wing revolutions

United States involvement in regime change - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Pickman's model]

It's gravy and cheese on poutine you heathen.

It's pronounced putain because it's fucking horrible

 

[Serge Forward]

Any examples of where that’s happened. Aside from the Usbourne Big Book of Revolutionary Fairytales?

The revolution has historically been "the carnival of the oppressed". It's the counter-revolution that tended to be the violent bit, ie those in power don't give it up without a fight.

 

[seventh bullet]

You only need to read 1984, and consider how incredibly astute it was given how 20th C history panned out, to know that left wing revolutions don’t end well.

Thank God we live in a very moderate country, politically.

His unoriginal, ideal-type totalitarianism wasn't used by him to communicate the view that socialism or communism necessarily lead to authoritarian outcomes. The liberal use of Orwell's work as a propaganda tool in the anti-Communist armoury post-WWII did though. I don't think he would've been happy about that. So yes, you do need to read Orwell.

 

[JimW]

It's like seventh bullet says, it's no so much that you actively want your revolution to be violent, more that if you are going to effect radical change you're going to have to be prepared for violent resistance and counter-revolution; non-violent trade unionists in much of the world already face/have faced death squads so it's not like you even need to be threatening violent action yourself to incur it.

 

[Edie]

His unoriginal, ideal-type totalitarianism wasn't used by him to communicate the view that socialism or communism necessarily lead to authoritarian outcomes. The liberal use of Orwell's work as a propaganda tool in the anti-Communist armoury post-WWII did though. I don't think he would've been happy about that. So yes, you do need to read Orwell.

What do you think he was communicating with 1984?

 

[tim]

The last time there was a remote possibility of an armed revolution was in the 70s as far as I can tell , that well known Communist Harold Wilson was too much for some folk and there was talk of the army taking over & installing Mountbatten as our new glorious Leader . The reality was that a few cranks wanted this but it never got anywhere .

Wilson and those around him were rather concerned about it.

 

[Sue]

You only need to read 1984, and consider how incredibly astute it was given how 20th C history panned out, to know that left wing revolutions don’t end well.

Thank God we live in a very moderate country, politically.

Do we know that? We know that they often haven't ended well when undemocratically undermined/destroyed by right-wing interests/the US.

We don't know how those revolutions would have panned out without such interference.

 

[Edie]

Do we know that? We know that they often haven't ended well when undemocratically undermined/destroyed by right-wing interests/the US.

We don't know how those revolutions would have panned out without such interference.

But that inference is life. There will always be competing ideologies. And if there is a more competitive ideology like capitalism- tough shit.

 

[Pickman's model]

You only need to read 1984, and consider how incredibly astute it was given how 20th C history panned out, to know that left wing revolutions don’t end well.

Thank God we live in a very moderate country, politically.

If you're not confusing 1984 and animal farm then you're incredibly wide of the mark here

 

[rekil]

Any examples of where that’s happened. Aside from the Usbourne Big Book of Revolutionary Fairytales?

Portugal. Everybody forgets about Portugal.

 

[Serge Forward]

You only need to read 1984, and consider how incredibly astute it was given how 20th C history panned out, to know that left wing revolutions don’t end well.

Thank God we live in a very moderate country, politically.

Orwell was virulently anti-Stalinist. 1984 has to be seen in light of his involvement in the Spanish revolution, and with the Stalinists crushing the United Marxist Workers' Party (POUM), whose militia Orwell was a member of, and the mass anarchist CNT, which he sympathised with. Here's what he had to say:

Practically every building of any size had been seized by the workers and was draped with red flags or with the red and black flag of the Anarchists … Every shop and cafe had an inscription saying that it had been collectivized; even the bootblacks had been collectivized and their boxes painted red and black … There were no private motor-cars, they had all been commandeered, and the trams and taxis and much of the other transport were painted red and black. The revolutionary posters were everywhere, flaming from the walls in clean reds and blues…

Waiters and shop-workers looked you in the face and treated you as an equal. Servile and even ceremonial forms of speech had temporarily disappeared. Nobody said “Señor” or “Don” or even “Usted”; everyone called everyone else “Comrade” or “Thou” … In outward appearance, it was a town in which the wealthy classes had practically ceased to exist. Except for a small number of women and foreigners, there were no “well-dressed” people at all. Practically everyone wore rough working-class clothes, or blue overalls or some variant of militia uniform.

Above all, there was a belief in the revolution and the future, a feeling of having suddenly emerged into an era of equality and freedom. Human beings were trying to behave as human beings and not as cogs in the capitalist machine.

He also said:

When I see an actual flesh-and-blood worker in conflict with his natural enemy, the policeman, I do not have to ask myself which side I am on.

Orwell was much more than 1984 (a great book) and Animal Farm (a poor and much misused parable) and you'd do well to read a bit more Orwell. I recommend his Homage to Catalonia to give you a proper understanding of what's behind 1984.

By the way, there's not many (if any?) Stalininsts posting on Urban, so you're comparing apples with oranges, or Stalinism with those the Stalinists crushed.

 

[Edie]

Honestly Sue I do not think you can look at the history of the 20th century and conclude that the failed, authoritarian, deprived Eastern European/ Russian/ North Korean/ pre-capitalism China was a success.

Bread queues, disappearing dissidents, oppression of art and religion, no free speech, and corruption and nepotism to a greater extent than the West!

It was an ideology, a dream, that ended in a nightmare. Just going, oh well if the world and humans were actually different to what they actually are… Riiiiight.

 

[Edie]

If you're not confusing 1984 and animal farm then you're incredibly wide of the mark here

Oh! I am! Massive apologies!

 

[Sue]

But that inference is life. There will always be competing ideologies. And if there is a more competitive ideology like capitalism- tough shit.

Hang on, so supporting/planning a military coup to depose the democratically-elected government of another country is a 'competing ideology' and tough shit if you don't like it?

Executing and torturing people because you don't like their politics or trade union membership is a 'competing ideology' and tough shit if you don't like it?

Seriously?

 

[Edie]

Hang on, so supporting/planning a military coup to depose the democratically-elected government of another country is a 'competing ideology' and tough shit if you don't like it?

Executing and torturing people because you don't like their politics or trade union membership is a 'competing ideology' and tough shit if you don't like it?

Seriously?

I’m not sure if you are referring to atrocities committed by communist Russia or by Western capitalism?

 

[Sue]

Honestly Sue I do not think you can look at the history of the 20th century and conclude that the failed, authoritarian, deprived Eastern European/ Russian/ North Korean/ pre-capitalism China was a success.

Bread queues, disappearing dissidents, oppression of art and religion, no free speech, and corruption and nepotism to a greater extent than the West!

It was an ideology, a dream, that ended in a nightmare. Just going, oh well if the world and humans were actually different to what they actually are… Riiiiight.

I know, let's look at Central and South America. Which country would you like to start with?