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Filling the Vacuum 1995

Indeed. But here we are talking about the IWCA, who have set out to break the mould of left politics and indeed rebuild a working class movement. And in fifteen years have dramatically shown us... how to lose a load a branches and get two councillors elected.

Proclaiming your own brilliance and sneering at everyone else is all very amusing, but the IWCA's actual record is far from overwhelmingly impressive. And it still shows little evidence of learning from that experience and even less evidence of an ability to develop a viable strategy. About the best we've got after fifteen years is "All in good time". How about dropping the usual cantankerous and self-aggrandising bluster and actually coming up with something sensible to say about the IWCA's strategy?

I think youve preety much nailed them there. BUT what do you think they got right and wrong Nigel? What strategy do you think they needed?
I see a fair few similarities with them and militant in earlier days....
eg In the way that Militant were fairly dismissive of other left groups and i think too saw themselves as breaking the mould...
The big difference i think in someways was that Militant did have a strategy which worked well for a while but ultimately failed.
 
Indeed. But here we are talking about the IWCA, who have set out to break the mould of left politics and indeed rebuild a working class movement. And in fifteen years have dramatically shown us... how to lose a load a branches and get two councillors elected.

Proclaiming your own brilliance and sneering at everyone else is all very amusing, but the IWCA's actual record is far from overwhelmingly impressive. And it still shows little evidence of learning from that experience and even less evidence of an ability to develop a viable strategy. About the best we've got after fifteen years is "All in good time". How about dropping the usual cantankerous and self-aggrandising bluster and actually coming up with something sensible to say about the IWCA's strategy?



Isn't that just the thing about living through the decline of socialism? Both those who try something different and those condemned to make the same mistakes find it difficult to gain a foothold. Everybody's happy!
 
Isn't that just the thing about living through the decline of socialism? Both those who try something different and those condemned to make the same mistakes find it difficult to gain a foothold. Everybody's happy!

In other words, you don't have a strategy at all.
 
I mean look at T. Baldwin. He's almost beside himself with glee.

Not at all. Why would you think the failure of a miniscule left group would give me pleasure. It doesnt.
And despite my criticisms i think on issues like crime and immigration the IWCA have been a lot better than most.
But their failure to accept anything but slavish devotion is all too familiar when it comes to orthodox left groups.
 
In other words, you don't have a strategy at all.

No doubt you'll be relieved to know that the IWCA is currently working on something at the moment. It will be attempting a different tack. Something challenging. Not just for the IWCA either.

On the other hand it could swing behind 'No to Eu - Yes to Democracy!' - and help you "build on" (how often have we heard that?) its success, for all I know.

Somehow i doubt it though.
 
No doubt you'll be relieved to know that the IWCA is currently working on something at the moment. It will be attempting a different tack. Something challenging. Not just for the IWCA either.

Well I'm relieved to know that you do at least see that there's a problem and that you have some thinking to do after fifteen years of not getting very far. I'll reserve judgment on the merits of your strategic thinking until after I've seen it though.
 
Well I'm relieved to know that you do at least see that there's a problem and that you have some thinking to do after fifteen years of not getting very far. I'll reserve judgment on the merits of your strategic thinking until after I've seen it though.


Yeah we see there's a problem alright. It remains to be seen how many others agree with us this time?



And when you tell me that the IWCA has not 'got very far' - the IWCA has already achieved something the wider left has barely if ever attempted - pioneer a strategy that enabled it to put down roots in some of the most impoverished working class communities in the country.

It's not magic. It's not easy to sustain. But it still has to be the diamond tip of any anti BNP/New Labour strategy. And it could and should have been imitated by someone else by now surely?


Odd isn't it how the 'craw-thumpers' and sneerers on here still haven't got around to even attempting to do likewise?

What pray tell, what have you all being doing since 1994?
 
Not at all. Why would you think the failure of a miniscule left group would give me pleasure. It doesnt.
And despite my criticisms i think on issues like crime and immigration the IWCA have been a lot better than most.
But their failure to accept anything but slavish devotion is all too familiar when it comes to orthodox left groups.



Slavish devotion from whom exactly?
 
Slavish devotion from whom exactly?

Look at how IWCA supporters react to any criticism. Do you see that as any different from other Left groups?

In answer to Joes response to Nigel Irritable do you really think the IWCA laid down any stronger foundations in Oxford than the SP had in Glasgow etc... Cant say i'm convinced...
 
Look at how IWCA supporters react to any criticism. Do you see that as any different from other Left groups?


Why should they react any different to anybody else to what are usually either ill-informed or wholly prejudicial criticisms?

And since when has answering critics on a messageboard been a demand for slavish devotion?
 
Why should they react any different to anybody else to what are usually either ill-informed or wholly prejudicial criticisms?

In other words the people who criticise us either dont know us or if they do they are prejudiced....Looks like the same sad strategy most left groups have.
 
In other words the people who criticise us either dont know us or if they do they are prejudiced....Looks like the same sad strategy most left groups have.



Except for the fact that it isn't a strategy.

I still don't see how their answering critics on a messageboard amounts to a demand for blind devotion.
 
I dont have any problems with them answering their critics lletsa....I think its a good thing....but some of their answers are not so good.. How come you havent joined?
 
I dont have any problems with them answering their critics lletsa....I think its a good thing....but some of their answers are not so good.. How come you havent joined?


You don't criticise them for their answers though.
 
Yeah we see there's a problem alright. It remains to be seen how many others agree with us this time?

Lets see what you (eventually) have to say before we go making judgments about its merits.

Joe Reilly said:
What pray tell, what have you all being doing since 1994?


Well, I can't claim any credit for it, but the organisation I'm a member of has since 1994... Led the two biggest community campaigns this country has seen for many years (against the bin and water taxes), had multiple councillors elected, had a member of parliament elected twice, played a significant role in a victorious all out strike by hundreds of migrant workers and most recently got 12.5% of the vote across Dublin in getting its first MEP elected.

Ireland isn't exactly trembling on the brink of a socialist revolution because of our activities but I'll stand that modest record against the IWCA's any time you like.

I actually have some time for the IWCA's approach, although I think its too narrow. I pay more attention to its articles than I do to most of the stuff churned out by the sectarian left. But I don't see that it has achieved, over the last fifteen years, anything that remotely justifies the arrogance its members often display. At what point is appropriate to expect people to show some self awareness?
 
Lets see what you (eventually) have to say before we go making judgments about its merits.



Well, I can't claim any credit for it, but the organisation I'm a member of has since 1994... Led the two biggest community campaigns this country has seen for many years (against the bin and water taxes), had multiple councillors elected, had a member of parliament elected twice, played a significant role in a victorious all out strike by hundreds of migrant workers and most recently got 12.5% of the vote across Dublin in getting its first MEP elected.

Ireland isn't exactly trembling on the brink of a socialist revolution because of our activities but I'll stand that modest record against the IWCA's any time you like.

I actually have some time for the IWCA's approach, although I think its too narrow. I pay more attention to its articles than I do to most of the stuff churned out by the sectarian left. But I don't see that it has achieved, over the last fifteen years, anything that remotely justifies the arrogance its members often display. At what point is appropriate to expect people to show some self awareness?

Nigel Irritable criticises others for arrogance .
 
I think youve preety much nailed them there. BUT what do you think they got right and wrong Nigel? What strategy do you think they needed?
I see a fair few similarities with them and militant in earlier days....
eg In the way that Militant were fairly dismissive of other left groups and i think too saw themselves as breaking the mould...
The big difference i think in someways was that Militant did have a strategy which worked well for a while but ultimately failed.

lets face it , you have got it in for the IWCA.
 
Lets see what you (eventually) have to say before we go making judgments about its merits.



Well, I can't claim any credit for it, but the organisation I'm a member of has since 1994... Led the two biggest community campaigns this country has seen for many years (against the bin and water taxes), had multiple councillors elected, had a member of parliament elected twice, played a significant role in a victorious all out strike by hundreds of migrant workers and most recently got 12.5% of the vote across Dublin in getting its first MEP elected.

Ireland isn't exactly trembling on the brink of a socialist revolution because of our activities but I'll stand that modest record against the IWCA's any time you like.

I actually have some time for the IWCA's approach, although I think its too narrow. I pay more attention to its articles than I do to most of the stuff churned out by the sectarian left. But I don't see that it has achieved, over the last fifteen years, anything that remotely justifies the arrogance its members often display. At what point is appropriate to expect people to show some self awareness?


I don't think there is any arrogance in it. It is a simple statement of fact. Developing branches from a standing start in the more impoverished wards in the country is unique. Doing it with the resourses available to the IWCA makes it even more credible. As far as I can see an all important example has been set for what can be achieved.

Your sister party over here is routinely held up by some as having the better track record in terms of councillors elected and so forth. But this is not comparing like with like. As far as I'm aware near all of the successes have come off the back of either a former Labour MP, Nellist in Coventry, or a one time Labour Councillor coming out as a Socialist candidate and then pulling in another alongside him as part of 'Ian's team'.

This is not to decry those achievments. It is just that the strategy employed is of little use where such circumstances do not prevail. And that is practically everywhere else.
 
I don't think there is any arrogance in it.

Then Joe, with all due respect, you obviously don't pay much attention to your tone or that of your associates. IWCA supporters routinely come off as sneering and hectoring towards all and sundry on the existing left, convinced of your own righteousness despite the rather threadbare evidence so far that your strategy has much in the way of legs to it.

Joe Reilly said:
It is a simple statement of fact. Developing branches from a standing start in the more impoverished wards in the country is unique. Doing it with the resourses available to the IWCA makes it even more credible. As far as I can see an all important example has been set for what can be achieved.

"Branches" is overstating it isn't it? As far as can be told from the outside, there have now been quite a few attempts to build IWCA branches around the country. None of them have lasted or had any particularly deep rooted success, with the solitary exception of a branch in part of Oxford. And the group that split from you in London hasn't been any more succesful. In fifteen years, you have one councillor and reasonable support in one ward in Oxford to show for your approach.

That is an achievement, but it is hardly won that wildly overshadows the achievements of other groups on the left in the same period. The Socialist Party has councillors in Coventry and Lewisham (and unlike the IWCA in Oxford it has been able to consistently win elections in those places with candidates other than their most prominent figure). It has also, more recently, had a member elected in Huddersfield, stemming from a campaign against NHS cuts.

Here in Ireland I suspect that we were smaller than the proto-IWCA fifteen years ago in absolute terms. We certainly werent vastly larger. Yet I think anyone even reasonably fair minded would rank our practical achievements ahead of those of the IWCA since. And, by the way, many of the parts of Dublin or Cork where we now get thousands of votes and have councillors elected were not places where we had any roots of note fifteen years ago. And these include places like North inner city Cork, West Tallaght and Mulhudart, that aren't exactly overflowing with yuppies.

The thing is though, that we managed those modest achievements - and they are modest - while also managing to do things other than community activism. Something which seems quite beyond the IWCA. There's a nation wide wildcat strike of building workers in Britain at the moment. Socialist Party members are playing a key role in many areas in that strike. Presumably you don't think that such things are just silly studenty lefty shite?

The IWCA are a small group with some interesting things to say and a rather mixed record of success and failure. It has worked out an approach that can, with a great deal of concentrated effort sometimes make an impact in a smallish area. That's something to be learned from - but that means learning from its limitations as well as from its achievements. And those limitations are currently quite clear. Fifteen years on the IWCA has run into serious problems maintaining let alone spreading and certainly not generalising its local success. These are problems that other organisations involved in intenstive community work have run into before, including my own. I'm genuinely interested to hear what you have to say about overcoming these problems.
 
lets face it , you have got it in for the IWCA.

Well yes isuppose that must be right as i am not one of the 40 or so signed up members i must have it in for you....
Dont be so soft.....I think the IWCA are probably just a bit better than most left groups overall....Like i have said policies on crime and immigration are marginally more sane.....But whoever said "honesty is the best policy" would probably have not been over impressed by the IWCA.
I am not impressed either by what i see as the egotism of the leaders of the IWCA.
 
Well yes isuppose that must be right as i am not one of the 40 or so signed up members i must have it in for you....
Dont be so soft.....I think the IWCA are probably just a bit better than most left groups overall....Like i have said policies on crime and immigration are marginally more sane.....But whoever said "honesty is the best policy" would probably have not been over impressed by the IWCA.
I am not impressed either by what i see as the egotism of the leaders of the IWCA.



It is about time you got over whatever happened nigh on twenty years ago, though. It's almost a third of a natural lifespan.
 
"Branches" is overstating it isn't it? As far as can be told from the outside, there have now been quite a few attempts to build IWCA branches around the country. None of them have lasted or had any particularly deep rooted success, with the solitary exception of a branch in part of Oxford. And the group that split from you in London hasn't been any more succesful. In fifteen years, you have one councillor and reasonable support in one ward in Oxford to show for your approach.

That is an achievement, but it is hardly won that wildly overshadows the achievements of other groups on the left in the same period. The Socialist Party has councillors in Coventry and Lewisham (and unlike the IWCA in Oxford it has been able to consistently win elections in those places with candidates other than their most prominent figure). It has also, more recently, had a member elected in Huddersfield, stemming from a campaign against NHS cuts.

Ok. I'll have a final shot at this and then i'll leave it. I think the SP successes in Coventry and Lewisham can be discounted if we are looking forward to the future, as they have no universal application outside of those areas as the record of the SP itself indicates.

Afterall if the SP cannot capitalise on what has been achieved there then no one else can.

By contrast we believe the IWCA strategies can be emulated by others, in other areas, precisely because the broughs and wards forcused on , were selected in a thorougly random manner. And again in contrast to SP all from a standing start without any leg up from a previous association with Labour.
The signifigance of this simply cannot be ignored.

For example in Islington the IWCA happened to focus on the Finsbury area, a former NF stronghold. As it happens this contained the strongest branches of the ruling Lib Dems with majorities of over 800 in both wards. Initially no IWCA members lived in the ward.

The ward for first contested in 2002. By 2006, the IWCA stood six candidates across the two wards taking a total of 3,000 votes. The Lib Dems meanwhile took 4,200. Still healthy enough you might think except that the gap had narrowed from a swaggering majority of 800 to just 150 between the lowest placed Lib Dem candidate and the highest placed IWCA candidate in the Bunhill ward (incidentally one of the poorest in the country.)

In nearby Clerkenwell (which by contrast is heavily gentrified) the IWCA as a result focused on just 60 per cent of the ward for that reason, but still came within 100 votes of taking a seat.

In Havering in 2002 IWCA candidates in just two wards took just just under 5,000 votes - half of what the SLP took across the entire country. (One of them now has a BNP councillor.)

Up to 2008 the IWCA in Oxford had 4 councillors across 3 wards. (Incidentally of all the candidates the IWCA put up in Oxford just two were from an AFA background.)

But largely as a result of the Labour Party regionally making them their three main targets in the 2008 election as a Green Party Cllr on here correctly predicted they would do, the IWCA lost a couple in the last election.

(But by and large the iWCA pretty much held up, where the Labour increase came from is still a matter of conjecture. The Greens suffered similarly from the Labour 'bucking the national trend' in Oxford on June 4.)

Meanwhile in Glasgow we even beat the SSP to come a close third with 19% in a by election in 2003, contested by 5 or 6 national parties.
The fact that some branches didn't sustain the effort is hardly important in terms of looking at a national strategy. It is the potential revealed that should be the focus if we are looking forward.


That is just the briefest of summary but don't even try and tell me the IWCA approach is no different from what the rest of the left has been doing for the last 40 years. Afterall the SWP which is as old as the IS/SP has never even come close in almost half a century. Neither has any of the myriad trot groups. Most didn't even try. When they did as the SA collective, best result was I think 10 per cent? Hundreds of others were under the 5 per cent mark. The SLP fared little better.

So contrary to the IWCA as a mere continium of lefty practice the results say otherwise.

As for the myth of '15 years and getting nowhere' - the first ever seats the iwca contested were in 2002. The IWCA wasn't even registered as a party until 2001.

Ultimately what we are saying is if the 'left' and I use the term loosely is to compete against the BNP on a national basis then the strategy pioneered must be one of the building blocks.

In Ireland the SP is to be congratulated. But it is very differrent circumstances as I here even the SWP members were elected there!
 
Well yes isuppose that must be right as i am not one of the 40 or so signed up members i must have it in for you....
Dont be so soft.....I think the IWCA are probably just a bit better than most left groups overall....Like i have said policies on crime and immigration are marginally more sane.....But whoever said "honesty is the best policy" would probably have not been over impressed by the IWCA.
I am not impressed either by what i see as the egotism of the leaders of the IWCA.

Get over it and grow up.
 
...the Finsbury area, a former NF stronghold...

It's a small point, but when was Finsbury an NF stronghold?

I lived in Finsbury, just off Old St, in the 80s and was unaware of anything of the sort. Just to the east of Finsbury, Hoxton had a long history of far-right activity, but not Finsbury, as far as I know.
 
as far as i am aware the IWCA has never suffered a humiliating result such as those other left parties do repeatedly. when they have stood they have done well - their failure is that their party has not grown or spread geographically.

where the traditional left has succeeded it has been based on a communalist vote or else on a long term high profile local class fighting (Coventry, Hicks in Bristol, the SSP in Scotland).

the lesson for me from this is that without years of evidence of class fighting people will not vote for what imo is now regarded as a utopian project (socialism) which may be highly thought of but which in the short term people realise cannot be achieved or may even conflict with their individual short term interests.

a large part of the success of the IWCA where they have stood was down to the fact their platform and projected identity was not for utopia but simply representation (which their name amongst other things reinforced).

since long term high profile class fighting cannot simply be created from thin air the message imo is that the Left needs to stand on a platform of representation not utopia.
 
It's a small point, but when was Finsbury an NF stronghold?

I lived in Finsbury, just off Old St, in the 80s and was unaware of anything of the sort. Just to the east of Finsbury, Hoxton had a long history of far-right activity, but not Finsbury, as far as I know.

They were defiantley string there in late 70s, early 80s. In the 2008 Mayoral elections in London, BNP polled about 6% in the Finsbury /Clerkenwell area wards, far highere than anywhere else in Islington indicating that there is something about the area which would make sense for the IWCA to get there first
 
It's a small point, but when was Finsbury an NF stronghold?

I lived in Finsbury, just off Old St, in the 80s and was unaware of anything of the sort. Just to the east of Finsbury, Hoxton had a long history of far-right activity, but not Finsbury, as far as I know.

Late 1970's early 1980's. In the latter, the South Islington branch had the biggest, estimated 100 strong, and arguably most violent NF branch (convictions armed robbery, aggravated rape etc) in the country. Weekly paper sales at Chapel Market rivalled Brick Lane.
 
The signifigance of this simply cannot be ignored.

[Snip list of a few good results in council elections in a few wards nationally]

But what actually is "the significance of this?"

The IWCA has proven that if a group does a huge amount of community activism in a small area over a period of time it is possible to get a good vote in a council election or two. That's not in doubt, but to be honest I don't think it was ever in doubt.

Quite a lot of organisations have experience of doing a lot of community based activism in particular areas. Even leaving aside as you seem to want to do, the SP experience in Lewisham, Coventry or Huddersfield, we have the prior examples of Scottish Militant Labour in Glasgow or the Socialist Party in Dublin or Cork. These experiences have sometimes led to larger scale electoral successes than the IWCA has managed. It's also a tactic used by mainstream parties - it was even a cornerstone of Lib Dem strategy when they are serious about making a breakthrough in a particular area for quite a while.

The idea that by concentrating resources on community activism in a small area that you can get a good vote in a local council election in that ward is not a novel one, or even a particularly insightful one.

What the IWCA have now run into is something that other people have discovered a while ago. Such a strategy has serious problems. Community activism, if carried out seriously, and in particular if it's radical class based community activism, requires a huge amount of effort over a significant period of time. Really, a huge amount. And, the results are limited. You can certainly get a good result in a council election in a ward, but then what happens?

Recruitment from community work is tough. Votes are easier, at least locally, but recruitment tends to be slow and difficult. So slow and difficult for instance that for instance almost all of the IWCA "pilot" branches have faded away. They haven't even been able to recruit enough people to sustain themselves even in one tiny area where they have been working and are locally known.

Believe it or not, that wouldn't come as a surprise to some of us. I was in an Irish SP branch some years ago the activity of which was almost entirely community based. Over a period of years, the branch worked in one area, knocking on doors multiple nights every week. The issues that were being pushed were things like the bin tax, local school cuts, council housing waiting lists, that sort of thing. Our local candidate got 1,400 or so votes in a local election and just missed out on a council seat. Here's the thing though, in all that time the branch recruited one, maybe two, people through that work. If it wasn't for people joining for other reasons and being assigned to our branch, the branch would have fallen apart even while it was raking in votes locally.

There's a second and even more significant problem. Even where local work can be sustained for the long haul (something the IWCA has managed precisely once in a significant number of attempts), local success is extremely difficult to spread. Winning votes in a local council ward, on this sort of basis, has little effect two wards over and none at all in the next town up the road.

Let me give you another Irish example. The Workers and Unemployed Action group is a local organisation in South Tipperary in the Irish midlands. It has been plugging away for 25 years, based in Clonmel a large town there. It has become a really major force in that town and is sometimes the largest party on the town council. This month, after 25 years of solid activism, it has won its first seat in the next big town over. What they've managed in their town is more impressive than anything the IWCA has managed in electoral terms. And 25 years on, they are just beginning to make an impact in a second location.

To generalise, or even spread, community activism, you need generalisable campaigns. The poll tax, the bin tax, those sort of things. When there's an issue like that available, organisations can build a base through community activism more generally. When on the other hand you are knocking on doors and talking about speed bumps or a particular bus route (both things I've done) you may be doing something useful and important but you are not doing something generalisable. And worse still if it is all you are doing you are in serious trouble in the long run because you won't even be able to replace your existing numbers as people inevitably drop out.

Joe Reilly said:
But largely as a result of the Labour Party regionally making them their three main targets in the 2008 election as a Green Party Cllr on here correctly predicted they would do, the IWCA lost a couple in the last election.

I'm not particularly interested in scoring points against the IWCA on this. Council elections are less than reliable and while solid activism can guarantee you a solid vote it can't always guarantee you a win. However, the point about the IWCA becoming a bit target for the regional Labour Party doesn't surprise me at all - Labour customarily put vastly more resources into trying to get rid of Socialist Party councillors than they do into trying to compete in areas which have Tory or Lib Dem councillors.

Joe Reilly said:
The fact that some branches didn't sustain the effort is hardly important in terms of looking at a national strategy.

This is, in my view, exactly the wrong way of looking at the issue. The fact that every branch bar one couldn't sustain the effort is perhaps the single most important thing you need to come to terms with in looking at a national strategy, fighting it out for top spot with the problem of spreading localised success.

From the point of view of the Socialist Party, we have a very strong record of community activism. We also have experience of building a local electoral base through it. And we also have experience of its limitations, particularly in periods where there is no generalisable community based issue. I have no hesitation in agreeing with you that serious and intensive community activism will be "one of the building blocks" of a revitalised workers movement and a revitalised class politics, but it isn't THE ANSWER for a number of reasons.

Firstly, there are the issues of sustainability and generalisability I've already mentioned and won't go into again. The IWCA experience does not provide much comfort on that score.

Secondly, what about all of the other stuff in the world? I know that the IWCA is customarily dismissive, bordering on aggressive, about international issues, but even leaving those issues aside for a moment, there are workplace issues to be considered. Assuming here that you haven't abandoned a Marxist view of class for an entirely sociological one, the workplace remains the central place where workers are exploited and a key location of their potential power.

The IWCA does not split its resources into things outside of its community focus, which is fair enough on a tactical level. A small group can't do everything and it's perfectly reasonable to concentrate on doing one thing well. The problems is that the IWCA and its members seem to think that this is a virtue rather than a necessity and tend to be aggressively hostile towards other forms of activism that don't fit into their single approach. This didn't look entirely unreasonable when industrial struggle was at an all time low, but now that there are some important struggles going on in the workplace it looks a bit silly.

The Socialist Party has played an important role in the Linamar dispute (where the convenor was already a member), at Visteon (where two of the convenors joined the SP) and in the building industry (where two members of the strike committee at LOR were in the SP). The sort of role the Socialist Party plays in these disputes simply would not be possible without the long term work we do in the unions and in various workplaces (the two not being exactly the same thing of course).

I am using this as an example, because presumably not even the IWCA thinks that builders and car workers are useless middle class students, but there's a wider point here. Other forms of activism often have better returns in terms of recruitment than community activism. People are, in my experience, more likely to actually join a political organisation over an issue of "high" politics, local, domestic or international, than they are over community style stuff. You aren't going to build an electoral base in most parts of the country by talking about Palestine or capitalism, but you are more likely to get someone to join your organisation over such a thing than you are over speed bumps on the street.

This is related to another point, which is the general lack of clarity about "high" politics in the IWCA. It's not, as far as I know socialist, it's not as far as I know committed to anything in particular as a final goal. Which makes it pretty difficult to recruit people on such grounds. You are offering people an approach, not quite a strategy yet but an approach, but you aren't offering them a goal to achieve with that approach. But this part is probably best kept to an other discussion.

Joe Reilly said:
As for the myth of '15 years and getting nowhere' - the first ever seats the iwca contested were in 2002. The IWCA wasn't even registered as a party until 2001.

Well, seven years of discussion and preparation followed by eight years of implementation if you like. It's long enough to draw some conclusions at this point - both positive and negative.
 
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